Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: brooksbeefarm on November 19, 2014, 01:05:31 pm
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Our current club president and some of the speakers that have given presentations at our meetings have given the impression that protective gear isn't necessary :o. They have shown video's of them working hives and doing cutouts without protective gear, and there are many new beekeepers that are starting beekeeping and some that are getting ready to take our coming beekeeping school? Well, i sent a e-mail to them that i thought that was the wrong thing to do, that it could cause serious injury our possibly death to new beekeepers.(and old)That bees are a wild animal and not to be trusted, i understand that they don't want new beekeepers to fear bees, but they are what they are.The vise president agreed with me and our club meeting is next Tues. Older beekeepers can tell most of the time if they need a net or gloves right off, but a new beekeeper won't until it's to late. Jack
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I wouldn't recommend starting off with bees unprotected. It might not deterr the ambitious newbees from continuing but it certainly carries risks. Before a beek is ready to work his hives without protective gear, he/she needs to develop the confidence and technique that will avoid upsetting the girls and sending them off into a frenzy. If you start off getting plenty of stings, confidence will come much more slowly.
After you've mastered the arts of handling the bees properly, you can take off your gloves, your veil. your shirt your.....just like---- :laugh: 8)
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I couldn't agree with efmesch and Jack more. I am the secretary of our bee club. We host a beginning beekeeper class in the spring. Many of the women, at the beginning beekeeping class, will ask about the cost of protective equipment and is it necessary. I let them know that I still suit up fully every time I enter a hive. I follow it with "You don't want to be nervous when working your hives. You should wear as much equipment as you feel comfortable." Those that hesitate, I remind them that a few stings might make them leery to go back into the hive. Good beekeepers check their hives often and beginning beekeepers will learn more if they check their hives frequently.
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Ef- "After you've mastered the arts of handling the bees properly, you can take off your gloves, your veil. your shirt your.....just like-
Ef! That soo funny! Even if I am without veil, gloves or shirt, of which often I am, I would still keep my pants on! A sting in the hoo hoo is no laughing matter ;) :D
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Jen, believe it or not, I wasn't hinting at you. ;)
I won't give any more info as to whom it might apply...... :laugh:
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Good advice from all.
Thanks for the confirmation Ef, I didn't take it personal in any way, just adding some humor to the topic ;)
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I agree. They should always wear what they are comfortable with. Never what another person recommends, just because they said so. Each person is different.
Jen, I won't say who Ef was referencing, but here's a hint.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi81.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj226%2FIddee%2FSwarm%2520catching%2520attire%2Fbees031.jpg&hash=79b20d038251f5a774bcbd58fcd6fea4a3dfdea7) (http://s81.photobucket.com/user/Iddee/media/Swarm%20catching%20attire/bees031.jpg.html)
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Its takes one toxic bee to put you in the hospital. Just think one hive can have over 40 thousand bees. I know. I'm allergic to honeybees. I can tell you a story what happen to me. On a cloudy cool day I cut the grass around my hives without my veil. I got stung 4 times in the face, 15 minutes later I new I had a problem. I could feel my heart had a funny beat, I broke out with the hives from head to foot. I itched from head to foot, the hives on my back had puss coming out. My tongue swelled a little along with my throat. Wife gave me benadryl. I took a warm bath. I felt better. Wife made me go to the hospital. Hospital hooked me up to an IV. I lay there for 2 hours. Doc came in and told me my next bee sting could be very serious. I followed up with an allergy doctor right away. Doctor sent me out to get a blood test for four groups of bees. Test came back a week later. I'm allergic to the bees I love to keep. All other bees I’m OK. Doc said if I want to keep my bees I have to get the shots for 3 to 5 years. I'm two years into the program now. I still get stung a little but no problems. The shots are working. Every time I go into my hives now I fully protect myself, cut the grass around my hives I suit up too. I can still play with the bees but I have to be smarter. When I here these people brag that they get stung 30 times. I laugh. They don’t know how lucky they are to be alive. Bees are nature. They sting because that’s how they protect themselves. Govern yourself accordingly.
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I've been stung most times I go out and work the bees it seems as of late. Some days multiple, but I certainly wouldn't brag about it! :laugh:
When it happens I can attest to the fact that it is a direct result of me being either lazy, careless, foolish, or a combination of any 2 and sometimes 3.
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End of season I took a bunch when I forced the hives into the back of the truck and broke them open. They itched some. After winter and a layoff of getting stung I swell up and it really bugs me. I hate getting it in the face, an aggressive bee in my eyes still gets a quick reaction. What is the point other than ego? It is not unusual for me to get all done and notice I did not zip my hood, but I always put it on.
I don’t know what a ho ho is but I would guess by the name of it that’s what you say when the stinger goes in!
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People who get stung alot get that spacey stare look, What you don't believe me?? Okay,then look at perrys avatar. :laugh: :laugh: Jack
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Jack Jack Jack! I've been stung hundreds of time and it hasn't given me the spacey stare look....
it was already there before I became a beekeeper... procuct of the 60's I guess :D :laugh: :D
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i agree with you jack, and i don't think your getting grumpy about it, i think you are being practical. "Older beekeepers can tell most of the time if they need a net or gloves right off, but a new beekeeper won't until it's to late."
at the minimum, a veil, a pair of gloves maybe, or a jacket. AND a smoker. beginning beeks have not built up the sting immunity, so they may suffer from larger local reactions, maybe not. also i have seen new beeks panic when bees coming rolling out of the hive. many of us seasoned beeks still suffer from larger local reactions, or even systemic reactions, many do not, so each of us work our bees accordingly. taking a sting on the hands is one thing, taking stings to the face, nose ear or eyelids is another. i too think, like others have said, new beeks sometimes need the confidence that the protection can give them to build their confidence until a time that they are comfortable and/or do not suffer so badly from sting reactions. it's just common sense.
and like ray said, it only takes one sting for someone that doesn't know they are allergic, but on the flip side, a sting through a glove or protective gear will also land you in an er room, if you are allergic. awareness of sting reactions ought to be also covered, and what to do.
i can honestly say i always thought i was a good keep when working my bees before the allergy. i think ray might agree with me on this? developing the allergy made me a better beekeeper in many ways. and ray, beeks don't realize how fortunate they are not to be strapped with the allergy.
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Riv- "i agree with you jack, and i don't think your getting grumpy about it, i think you are being practical
:yah: :agree: Agreed! and I think you should stop biting your tongue and speak up... in a gentlemanly way of course. You know? like here on the forum... ;)
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I'm gonna throw in on this as well.. I started, and worked bees for a LOT of years without having any idea there was such a thing as a veil. I learned the hard way I was not allergic to bees.
With good bees, protective gear is not always necessary, but there are STILL times when the bees will be unhappy. When being robbed, during a dearth, and even just in the fall when they have winter stores to protect. During those times having protective gear will help keep a new beekeeper from getting upset and frustrated at the VERY least.. ALIVE at the very worst..
With the threat of AHB genetics a real possibility having the gear available is mandatory. No, we dont have it regularly, but it does, and WILL show up here and there. Bees with bad attitudes, and even bees with AHB Genetics may seem calm and nice when first establishing their hive, and then change dramatically when they have something to defend.
NOT using gear is a personal choice. Having gear available is not not a choice. EVERY beekeeper should have the gear. If they choose to use it or not must be entirely up to them.
Anyone telling a NEW beekeeper they do not need gear needs a knuckle bump on the top of the head! So, no, I do not believe you are being grumpy either.
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Those 'teachers' of beekeeping have a standing invitation to come visit my Texas bees. ;-) That practice would stop in a New York minute. Nevertheless, some folks in my Club are getting lessons from an unnamed someone who 'tunes in with the bees' without protection and thinks everyone should learn how....
The thing about visiting a beehive is that the situation can be just fine for a while, but change in an instant with a whiff of alarm pheromone -that means you were late with the smoke, or you just dropped a frame, or squashed some bees, or, otherwise disturbed the bees with a bump or careless moment. And, it happens whether you are wearing protection or not. I work my bees everyday without gloves, but wear them at your house or when harvesting honey, moving hives or splitting, and maybe if its cold outside. :)
Jack, you were correct to point out the failure to use PPE. :)
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Working hives with out gear sometimes comes across as a reflection of how good a beekeeper you are. One almost gets the sense that beekeepers that don't use protective equipment feel superior. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone because this is the vibe I get at bee meetings and several online forums. I read and hear comments and these danged beekeepers that act like their the danged Bee Whisperer! Dang it!
I still feel the best philosophy is to wear what you are comfortable with. When I go out to the hives and don't want to put on a suit and veil and gloves, I remind myself how miserable I would be and unable to function if something critical, like my hands, got stung. Hey, I even wear a headband over my ears under the veil because somehow they seem to find my ears.
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Riverbee
I think we both agree, our allergies made us better beekeepers. I spend more time watching them come and go. I can tell if my hives have a queen or not, it makes no sense for me to open a hive to see if the hive is doing OK. The bee traffic coming and going tells me the condition of the hive. I make sure my hive has plenty of room for the queen to lay eggs. When its time for me to open my hives. I pick the right time to open it. Weather must be good and around 2 o’clock when most of the forgers are out collecting pollen. I never open a hive on a bad day. My veil is always on when I go near my hives. I'm fully protected when I open my hives. They get plenty of smoke.
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Most of my bees came from Lborou's stock, so I can attest to the fact that the BeeWeaver genetics produce some fairly hot bees. Lborou is a very accomplished beekeeper, having kept bees in several states over several decades, and he wears a hood and jacket when working our bees. My bees are very nice when the inspection starts with a some smoke and a lot of patience, but they get more riled up as time passes and before you are finished they are crawling on your clothes looking for an opening. My first bees were Italians from an old Texas beekeeper, and they were very tame. You could walk up and lift the lid off of a hive and look inside without even being butted by a guard bee. Sometimes my BeeWeaver's sting you when you are 20 feet from the hive.
One of the above posters speaks of people that think they are bee "whisperers." I think that is true, and I think those people are a danger to beginning beekeepers.
It's still a relatively free country, so if one wants to risk their health and well being following dangerous procedures then they can proceed at their own risk and peril.
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ray, thanks, i think it's true. i do wear full protection as well, and need to for now. maybe that will change again someday. i would like nothing more than just wearing a veil. i am just grateful to be able to keep bees at this point.
"Working hives with out gear sometimes comes across as a reflection of how good a beekeeper you are. One almost gets the sense that beekeepers that don't use protective equipment feel superior. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone because this is the vibe I get at bee meetings and several online forums. I read and hear comments and these danged beekeepers that act like their the danged Bee Whisperer! Dang it!"
great post bakers, i sometimes get that thought as well, and it is more from guys than it is the ladies. working bees without gear IMHO has nothing to do with how good a keep you are, and they are not 'bee whisperers' as they may purport to be.... it's how foolish you want to be.........because YOU WILL get stung....... :D and would agree with what lazy just said......"One of the above posters speaks of people that think they are bee "whisperers." I think that is true, and I think those people are a danger to beginning beekeepers.
It's still a relatively free country, so if one wants to risk their health and well being following dangerous procedures then they can proceed at their own risk and peril."
also great post lee,
"Those 'teachers' of beekeeping have a standing invitation to come visit my Texas bees. ;-) That practice would stop in a New York minute."
your texas bees? i would also invite anyone to come visit my russians/mutts, even on a good day, sometimes they will send you running for a veil!
that practice would stop in a WISCONSIN minute........ :D
but great point about how things change in a hive, new beeks are not typically aware of these changes, and how they can happen.
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.... Sometimes my BeeWeaver's sting you when you are 20 feet from the hive.....
Its just your magnanimous personality Lazy :)
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AND! How about the sting that is unexpected such as having your arms up holding a frame, checking the frame out, lowering your arms to gently return the frame, and WHAM! you get it in the arm pit because YOU mushed the bee, not because the bee was aggrivated ~ :D
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I learned to respect bees at an early age, robbing bee trees in the winter along the river with my dad and uncles. The bees i learned later was the German Black bees :o (i don't need to say more). My protective gear was a straw hat, mosquito net from army surplus,flannel shirt, overalls, combat boots, and brown cotton gloves. The Devil bees had a field day, ;D grandad keep some in hives also, when my barber told me how gentle his bees were i didn't believe him,he took and showed me and got me to order some from Sears & Roebuck, they were the Midnight bees (tec said he may have been the one who filled my order?), i've had bees since from 1965 till now, i have never worked bees without a veil, but have raised lids without a veil for a quick peek when i thought something was wrong. Now that i'm older and smarter (never laid a super up side down) :D.i wear a veil, jacket and goat skin gloves and always have a lit smoker, there have been times i never took a hit for weeks at a time working bees. My thought is, why take a chance getting stung when you can prevent it (most of the time) ??? Jack
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I learned to respect bees at an early age...........I have never worked bees without a veil, but have raised lids without a veil for a quick peek when i thought something was wrong. Now that i'm older and smarter (never laid a super up side down) :D.i wear a veil, jacket and goat skin gloves and always have a lit smoker, there have been times i never took a hit for weeks at a time working bees. My thought is, why take a chance getting stung when you can prevent it (most of the time)
........ :yes:
never laid a super upside down jack?!...................... :D :D :D
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Yes Jack, always practice a safe beekeeping :D
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I think someone said comfort level somewhere here... Thats a big thing.. If you DREAD going out to the hives how can you stay interested? A new beekeeper that gets stung half a dozen times is NOT going to be happy about opening the hive again.. then of course, you have the folks that dont have enough brains to be afeared of gettin stung...
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.cc%2Ftfavsn48d%2FDSCN0565.jpg&hash=f239fcb4b92c9497c34a9170eed3dec981f2e2cd) (http://postimg.cc/image/tfavsn48d/)
Getting stung was a normal thing for me. I never considered going to work for my one day a week job as a kid that I would go home without being stung.. I will freely admit, that when I started looking at bee magazines, I was astonished by the stuff available.. I ordered Ultra Breeze suits, because of the protection they offered. CONFIDENCE is a good thing to have. No, I still dont put the hood up very often, but I have it there if I need it, and that IS a comforting feeling.. A new beekeeper needs to have that confidence.. Let them try to be macho if they wish, so long as they have the gear, because the bees will teach them sooner or later!
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See how Scott smokes himself before and probably during his inspections? It works! This is what I do and it works for me ~
I start out and usually finish my inspections in a tank top with a ball cap and head veil that is pulled taut an the base of my neck. Before I put the veil on I buff my arms, chest and neck with my homemake propolis tincture. When I open the hive I smell exactly like the hive. The bees are curious about me and land on my arms and chest and groom themselves and are peaceful. I love when they land on me and stay for awhile, it's the greatest compliment the bee's can give me. Usually about 1/4 of the way thru the inspection I curl the veil up onto my ball cap and don't need it. Buuut once in awhile I get a bee that is too curious around my face and I can pull the veil right back down.
However, this summer during a drought and dearth, the bees were agitated, once I take 3 or more stings I go get my bee shirt on so I'm comfortable finishing the inspection.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fc5radedcp%2FDSCF0604.jpg&hash=517829a67362d76f444aaed4fea20676a321d2bb) (http://postimg.cc/image/c5radedcp/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fe1e2ok26x%2FDSCF0605.jpg&hash=5d27dcf2abb12b1fd0ac78fcb4bb4038d9e857f3) (http://postimg.cc/image/e1e2ok26x/)
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Well, Jack, while I slept the night through on this side of the pond, the "votes" seem to have come in unanimous agreement in your favor.
Perhaps you should print out the responses to this thread and bring them to the next meeting of your club. They just might carry enough counter weight to overpower the opinion of your club's current president. In the very least, the newbies will realize that there are good reasons not to start with bees unprotected.
BTW, Scott, that is a great picture. :bee:
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a snip...
One of the above posters speaks of people that think they are bee "whisperers." I think that is true, and I think those people are a danger to beginning beekeepers.
tecumseh...
absolutely correct Jack. on numerous occasion I have warned folks here to not get complacent when they work bees and to 1) always light your smoker and 2) to put on and check what ever bee protective gear they think is necessary. for me gloves can be optional but a veil and the smoker are both essential tool of the trade. we have even had some of the so called bee whisperers here tell folks (after taking their money) that they don't need a smoker and that using a smoker is cruel to the bees. I try to drill into people's thick head here that even the most docile of bees can become very defensive at times and that they do need to act like this sort of thing can and will happen. One down side of very docile bees is they can and often do lull folks into lazy and complacent behavior. < my own narrow self interest here is that I would like folks that come to beekeeping to stay for a while and pretty much know that their first ugly encounter with the bees stands a good chance of also being their last.
I like Jack was raised around german black bees and the idea of even approaching those without a smoker or protective gear just sounds like insanity. I would very much like to have a yard of those to introduce to some of the local 'bee whisperers'.
Lastly to Jack.... if you value your bee club and want it to continue to grow then I would suggest as one of your club's elder statesmen it is your duty to make comments when you see things not being done properly or even to shout at the top of your voice when you see bad habits are being consistently reinforced.
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< my own narrow self interest here is that I would like folks that come to beekeeping to stay for a while and pretty much know that their first ugly encounter with the bees stands a good chance of also being their last.
Lastly to Jack.... if you value your bee club and want it to continue to grow then I would suggest as one of your club's elder statesmen it is your duty to make comments when you see things not being done properly or even to shout at the top of your voice when you see bad habits are being consistently reinforced.
All true Tec!
To me, the future of beekeeping rests in the hands of the beginning beekeepers. We want to see them succeed.
An often heard comment at my local bee club: "Ask 10 beekeepers the same question and you will get 9 different answers."
Jack, you would probably be surprised how many novice beekeepers are just waiting to hear your opinions.
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I've had many bee club outings at my farm for hands on working bees for new and older members (as many as 80 at a time), i ask them to bring there protective wear and smoker. I would ask them not to stand in front of the hives, that if their in there flight path they may get stung (to no avail?), they would circle the hives and some didn't wear protective wear. In all the outings at my bee yards there was only one person that got stung,( that i know of, he didn't have his gear on) and that was because a frame was dropped :o I would say that's some kind of record :yes:.What really set me off was the speaker at our last club meeting, he stated that if the news media comes to your bee yard to make a broadcast on beekeeping (they have at my farm 3 different times), that he thought it was a good idea to work your bees without protection to show people that they don't have to be afraid of bees. I never challenged him, just set and bit my tongue. :o (other than that, i enjoyed his presentation). Like my buddy perry that brags on me all the time says, getting stung hurts, and they all hurt, i agree (sadly ;D) Jack
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Like my buddy perry that brags on me all the time
Awh jeez, don't go gettin all soft on me, it won't make the payback you got comin feel as good! ;) 8) :D
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""he thought it was a good idea to work your bees without protection to show people that they don't have to be afraid of bees.""
I have to agree with the speaker on that one. That's why I don't wear PPG when doing a cutout. It relaxes the neighbors.
Perry doesn't wear it so the photographer can get better picks of his pretty face.
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""he thought it was a good idea to work your bees without protection to show people that they don't have to be afraid of bees.""
I have to agree with the speaker on that one. That's why I don't wear PPG when doing a cutout. It relaxes the neighbors.
Perry blah blah blah blah blah his pretty face.
Finally Iddee, we can agree on somethin! ;D
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"Perry doesn't wear it so the photographer can get better picks of his pretty face."
................ :D
"What really set me off was the speaker at our last club meeting, he stated that if the news media comes to your bee yard to make a broadcast on beekeeping (they have at my farm 3 different times), that he thought it was a good idea to work your bees without protection to show people that they don't have to be afraid of bees. I never challenged him, just set and bit my tongue."
challenge jack, just playing the flip side.... and what if the news media shows up to your beeyard making a broadcast on beekeeping and on the off chance someone gets stung without a veil on, or the bees come rolling out of hive just teed off, what do you suppose the news media might report? ;D
maybe, maybe not, they might edit it out, but my guess is they might go for frills and thrills..........
we all have approached swarms, without any protective equipment on, and 'wooed' bystanders by how calm the bees are, touched them, taken pics for them or let them take pix, etc, dumped them into whatever container and left making eveybody wonder why we weren't stung........BUT we know the secret to a swarm of bees!....... ;D
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When I started I had a veil,gloves etc but my first small hive seemed very docil and I soon quit wearing any protective gear.
Then one day I guess I caught them in a bad mood.
I only know about my bees. Some hives on some days could be worked buck nekid. Other days you would still get a couple stings thru a space suit.
Nowadays I suit up regardless. Stings don't bother me much but I don't enjoy them either.
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Lol on the topic of this whole thread -- there's an old man who lives a few houses down from me. He's the kind of guy that if you told him it's dangerous to stick your tongue in a rattlesnake's mouth, he would do it just to prove he wasn't scared. I mean that literally. I don't know how he's managed to not get killed for this long.
Anyway, whenever I open my hive and he's happens to pass by, he just *has* to come running up and stick his face into the hive to see what I'm doing until I chase him away. One of these days they're gonna be in a bad mood and he'll get covered in stings...it actually kinda worries me, especially since he's not in the greatest health to begin with. I would buy him a bee suit but he definitely wouldn't wear it.
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Woody - "Some hives on some days could be worked buck nekid
Um yaaah.... I'll stick to my jammies at my age thank you very much :o :D
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I am a novice, so don't pay much attention to what I post. Lborou on the other hand, is a long time beekeeper with lots of experience with bees from Alaska to Central Texas. He, like me, keeps BeeWeaver bees. Their claim to fame is that they are resistant to varroa mites. The owner BeeWeaver will replace your queen it you thing they are too hostile. One will not be working these bees without a veiled jacket, unless he/she is willing to take multiple stings. They will get on your hands if the hive is open more than a few minutes. These are the only bees that I have kept. I keep thinking how nice it would be to have very tame bees. Then again the BeeWeavers have the varroa resistance and they are great producers. Since they are my only experience with bees, I just love the mean girls.
Sidebar: Louis Grizzard, humorist and writer of Souther lore, said: "if you don't have any clothes on you are naked, If you don't have clothes on and up to something, you are nekid." I was reminded of that when Jen used the term "nekid."