Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Curtchann on January 07, 2015, 07:44:08 pm
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What would give the new beekeeper the best advantage of having their first hive survive through the winter, starting with a Nuc or purchasing package bees. My goal for the first year is just getting them to the point that they can survive the winter here in Michigan.
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If you can buy a nuc as early as you can a package, a nuc is best. If the package can be had 2 months earlier, a package is best.
A GOOD nuc is a month or more ahead of a package in development time. Just be sure you know the nuc seller or check his credentials.
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what iddee said curchann,
i prefer nucs, established nucs, with a proven queen that is already laying.
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My preference would be to start with a strong hive if that can be had for a reasonable price. A strong hive could/should be split in the June timeframe anyways; giving you 2 to 4 colonies ready for next winter. June splits will have plenty of time to get strong for next winter and you won’t have to spend money on mated queens if you split in June.
IMO, we all make mistakes when starting something new. The more mistakes you endure, the more competent you become at something. More colonies gives you better odds of having something survive the summer, the pests, the mistakes, crushed queens, skunks, robbing, the winter, etc.
If a strong hive can’t be had for a reasonable price, then I would go with a nuc. I know some folks like the idea of all mediums (for weight reasons), but you get more value (comb space) with deep nucs. 5 frame deeps are a common configuration whereas beeks seem to offer 6 frame mediums as nucs too. You get a lot more baby bees and comb space in 5 deeps than 6 mediums. It’s not that hard to convert the bees over to whatever comb size you like once you have a sustainable bee yard. That's what I would focus on first; becoming self sustaining with regards to bees!
Packages will work, but getting them too early in our climate can lead to a lot of worrying! It’s liable to snow here into May. That cold weather and limited forage is harder on packages than on nucs.
The other thing to be weary of is our fellow bee keepers; hate to say it! Some of them will buy packages from down south, stick them in a nuc box, and sell them as “nucs”. Those are not nearly as valuable as an over wintered Michigan hive or nuc.
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I agree with Iddee as well.
LogicalBee makes a couple of very valid points:
"Some of them will buy packages from down south, stick them in a nuc box, and sell them as “nucs”. Those are not nearly as valuable as an over wintered Michigan hive or nuc."
Substitute Michigan for wherever you live, and it holds true, even up here.
"That's what I would focus on first; becoming self sustaining with regards to bees!"
I tell this to a lot of folks who want to start by buying bees for TBH's or wanting to go treatment free right out of the gate. KISS is huge! First, get in the game and just learn to keep bees alive, then stretch your legs in whatever direction suits you.
I just finished reading a rant (his words) that Randy Oliver did on this last point and it opened my eyes really.
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Nucs,
I think I would even rather have a swarm over a package.
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First, get in the game and just learn to keep bees alive, then stretch your legs in whatever direction suits you.
I have not read that rant yet, but like Mr. Oliver more each time I read something he writes.
You have NO IDEA how many X beekeepers I talk to that tried, and failed in their first year, and never tried again, OR, they tried and failed, and want to know WHY..
90% of the time it was because they wanted to do something fancy, or different, or Nothing...
Nothing? They were confused by so many different answers and options, so they did nothing, it was simple to do nothing.
Indeed it is, and on a PERFECT year, nothing may very well work! In any other type of year doing nothing will not be as productive..
Read my website and you will understand exactly what Perry just said.. KEEP your bees alive that first year. It is not hard, in fact, it is fun and exciting. If you want to go treatment free, or natural, or use herbal remedies for mites etc... I have no argument about that, so long as you wait at least a year, preferably TWO before you start trying it. If someone tells you NEVER feed your bees, Please, dont restrain yourself, slap them for me.
It doesnt take a lot to learn the basics, and keep your bees in a basic manner the first year. It will give you some confidence, and some HONEY that second summer!
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Perry,
Do you have a link to that write up. I would like to read it?
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The article is about an easy way to raise queens, but he starts off with an interesting "rant"! I kinda like it myself. :D
I do not want to offend anyone who takes issue with the article, I just believe there are valid points to what is being said.
The link at the end of his rant is interesting as well.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/
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Nucs are good if you can find one at an reasonable price. Ask the beekeeper if he treats his bees for mites. No mite treatment stay away from it. It will never get thru the winter. Check the condition of his frames too. You want newer frames in it. Make sure you are getting a new mated queen. Expect to pay 130 to 180 dollars for a 5 frame nuc. package bees are good because you can re-queen it at a later date with a local queen. You know the condition of your frames too. Your package bees might have a few mites in it but nothing to worry about. You could treat it for mites when you have it put together later. Expect to pay 90 to 110 dollars for package bees. I think a package is the better way to go for a new beekeeper. Your not spending a lot of money for a box of bugs. You can have an experience beekeeper help you re queen it later with a mated queen from your area.
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"" package bees are good because you can re-queen it at a later date with a local queen.""
You can do the same with a nuc. Many nuc suppliers will pull 3 or 4 frames of brood and stores, order Hawaiian queens early in the spring and sell that as a nuc. Be sure to ask the seller if the bees in the nuc are the queen's offspring, or if the queen was introduced.
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I know a keep who does something very similar to what Ray is talking about. When he sells nucs in the spring, his buyers have 2 choices:
# 1 - a nuc made up with a young imported queen (of which he knows very little).
# 2 - He sells the nuc with an overwintered queen of his own, simply requeening his hive with the imported queen. When he then raises his own queens a month or so later, he goes around and requeens all the hives that have those imported queens in them.
I may soon follow this example, except for habitually requeening the imported queens a month later, only doing that where neccessary. It beats having 2 waves of nuc sales, those that want early nucs (imported queens) and those that want local queens (later).
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It's six to one, half a dozen to the other.
Packages are available here in the Lower Peninsula in mid-April.
There are some that are importing nucs from the south and California.
Local ( Survivor?) nucs won't be available until May ( weather permitting).
Price is another issue.
Waiting for local nucs may save or cost, depending on the weather, supply and demand.
I am personally hoping for some suppliers to come to their senses and have an oversupply later.
From what I have read on assorted forums ( A little, speaking from experience here):
1) NewBees hives survive the first winter fine ( Beginner's luck?)
2) Second year Beeks have terrible losses.
AWSBees have packages for $112.00 with a $7 box deposit. I have had good luck with them.
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Thanks All, you have given me questions to ask that I would have never thought to ask.
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Packages are offered in 2, 3, & 4 lb sizes. If you have drawn comb to put the bees on, a 2 lb package will work. But if the bees need to draw out frames of foundation or if you are going foundation less a 3 lb or larger package should be bought.
A 2 lb package has bees to cover 4 deep drawn frames. And a 3 lb bees to cover 6. So a month after you have installed the package every extra pound of bees will provide 2 more frames of brood ready to emerge
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Normally, local bees are best. If you can, find an apiary that has bees that have performed well in your climate for a decade or more. Order early (like now) and wait patiently until local queens are available at the end of May. IMO, two Nucs are good starting point in bee keeping. Packages are better suited to replacing winter losses in established apiaries.
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I agree. I have never bought bees and don't plan to. I just like the idea of local feral stock. I have built up to around 50 hives (4th year) all local bees and have yet to loose a hive in winter. I really am not fighting SHB problems either. I have some in hives but not a lot. I lost a couple to SHB but both instances were all my fault.
I am to the point now to where I can split or graft from my best hives and hopefully have stronger and stronger local stock.
I started by catching 2 swarms on the same day and have never looked back.
Disadvantage is you have to wait for the swarm calls to get started, so if I couldn't wait, I would probably start with someone that raises local feral stock
MHO.
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Well the first nucs I found are coming in April, they are from down south with a new queen from splits. The hunt continues.......
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This is a little off subject.
I would start with 3 colonies, if you can afford it.
One isn't enough due to the possibility of loss.
The second is a good insurance policy.
The third one would be your experimental colony.
Splits, Foundation-less, Queen cell production........ :-\
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Ray, I "almost" agree with you. I would start with 2 the first year to learn. Then go to 3 the 2nd year for Splits, Foundation-less, Queen cell production.
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This is a little off subject.
I would start with 3 colonies, if you can afford it.
One isn't enough due to the possibility of loss.
The second is a good insurance policy.
The third one would be your experimental colony.
Splits, Foundation-less, Queen cell production........ :-\
Learn, learn, learn the first couple of years. Experiment later when you know what you are looking at. This timeline varies from person to person.
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what ray said......
what iddee and bakers added.............. :yes:
3 for a first year is going to be challenge, but i wouldn't have the third hive to experiment with, every hive is different, a great learning experience. two is a great start as iddee said to learn, move to 3 the next year.
do what you are comfortable with........
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So if my nucs come in supers, would want my first tier of the hive body to be a super. Would I want my next hive body to be a super also or could I swithch them to mediums from there? Just curious about how I would want to stack them up to let them build up to survive the winter. I'm sure they could store more honey in a super.
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Most nucs come in deeps, a super is usually a med. super. It depends on if you want to have your hives made from all med. supers or a mix, like two deeps for brood and med. supers for honey,or three med.for brood and mediums for honey also? Several of our older beekeepers like perry, iddee, tec, squirt, ect. probably do mediums because of the weight problems, and if you have a bad back that would be the way to go. If your nuc is a med. and you want to keep med. for hives, just keep adding mediums. If your nuc. is a med. and you want to go to deeps, just put a deep on top and switch it out when they move up in the deep. Hope i haven't confused your more. Jack
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A super is a box on top of a box, whether it be a deep, medium, or shallow, or a 3/4. IE: 7 1/2 in.
Brood nests can be in any size box, whether shallow, medium, 3/4, deep or jumbo. It is best to refer to boxes by their size, rather than their use. Then folks know what you are saying.
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In Mich, folks usually try to get their hives built up to 2 deep boxes, or 4 medium boxes before winter. Those configurations give the bees room for raising brood (come next spring) and food (honey) to get them to next spring.
Luckily the bees don’t follow strict laws, and other configurations will work too. You can mix and match if you like. Say a deep box on the bottom and medium boxes above for the winter food. Just depends on your personal opinions and what beeks you listen to. I personally like the deep combs as long as I never have to lift one! Medium boxes do give the winter cluster a little more opportunity to regroup IMO (due to gaps between boxes). I use a little bit of both.
If you insulate your boxes here, you can get smaller colonies though winter too. Sometimes the smaller ones can make it through in a wood box too, but your odds go up with a little insulation of some sort.
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Thanks iddee, I will remember that.
Thanks LogicalBee, that gives me a starting point on what I need to accumulate in the coming month's. Unfortunately I won't have the time to make any of my own. But after my son's graduation and all, I should be able to start building what I need to expand for the future.
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"Just curious about how I would want to stack them up to let them build up to survive the winter."
curtchann, this can be confusing. how you want to stack them to build up for winter really depends on how well you manage them, irregardless of the box configuration. i will refer to what iddee, jack and logicbee said.
i am an old fashioned beekeeper, and have a great deal of dollars invested in equipment. for my brood boxes i maintain two langstroth deeps, and for honey supers, standard medium boxes. the only thing i have veered away from is now replacing older beeswax frames with waxed pierco foundation, mainly in the brood boxes. most of my supers, about 30 or so, contain drawn beeswax foundation, although when i want bees to draw foundation for supers now, i use the waxed pierco. for comb honey i just place blank frames in the medium supers. i think i have about 25 or so deep boxes. for me to switch to all mediums is a cost, lack of available drawn comb...... and a 'ready equipment' factor.'
i will be 60 this year. these deep boxes are heavy. they didn't use to be....... :D and the medium supers, when full of honey are starting to get heavy as well...... :D
i don't have a bad back, and i would like to say i am in great physical shape/health, but age sure does a job on the strength factor for lifting when it needs to be done. for me, as heavy as they are, i like having the deeps for brood. i like having the mediums for honey production only. i don't like queens laying in my honey supers. for me, having all mediums with the number of boxes and frames required would be too much for me to keep track of; brood mediums and medium honey supers. i don't know how scott does it. i wouldn't want to mix these up, brood boxes/frames vs honey boxes/frames. i am sure i just confused you?!
decide what configuration you would like to go with, whether deeps, mediums, or deeps and mediums, now. it's cost effective, and in the future will have readily available what you need to start a hive, once your comb is drawn. bees can overwinter in any box configuration........it's just how we manage them to overwinter well.
hope i made sense?
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it's not your age riverbee. A deep box stuffed with honey is around 80 pounds. Add to that the awkward angles involved and the stinging insects inhabiting that box and you have yourself a package that's heavy for anyone that's not a body builder. I'm 40 and work in construction and I still figure that taking off deep honey supers is a two person job.
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The one, the only, and the LAST deep of honey I hope I ever have weighed OVER 100 lbs.. I do not remember if it was 103 or 106 on my wifes store scale.. I just HAD to weigh it before I extracted it.. When I had to move that thing, I was very glad to have Ted there beside me.
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Your just up the road from me. I have one yard close to Martin.
Pkg bees that survive this climate?
Most people have had better luck with California bees rather than southern produced pkg's
Chris at Dadants and AWS both have them trucked in late April. Olivarez Honey Bees.
Those are the pkg bees that the local people are after. We like Carniolans.
I would say that any nuc that is ready before last of May-early June is not overwintered from this area.
Yes, there are a bunch of idiots that try to pass off southern bees as locally raised. Caution!
As far as equipment size? We run most of our outfit with 10 fr. medium boxes (6 5/8) on 4way pallets.
We like one size frame for everything.
It's taken us years to cycle out all those deep boxes.
Order sooner rather than later around these parts.
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it's not your age riverbee. A deep box stuffed with honey is around 80 pounds. Add to that the awkward angles involved and the stinging insects inhabiting that box and you have yourself a package that's heavy for anyone that's not a body builder. I'm 40 and work in construction and I still figure that taking off deep honey supers is a two person job.
Here's a picture from last year where I built a demonstration super to show how heavy a box of honey weighs. I used two heavy cinder blocks.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi585.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss298%2FSlowmodem_photo%2FBees%2FHeavy%2520Super%2F2014-01-16_14-26-03_82.jpg&hash=b9716ee1d769ebac534d9b0de8771e4895e13107)
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,609.msg7249.html#msg7249
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riverbee, You have not condused me too much. I will be looking at frames this week.
tefer2, my family is from Martin. I grew up in the area.
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"riverbee, You have not confused me too much. I will be looking at frames this week."
not too much!?.... :D
sorry curtchan.......didn't mean to confuse you, if you have any questions, please don't be afraid to ask, sometimes..... well i try to think in terms of what young beeks are trying to learn and decide.... and i don't always get it right or say something that i think makes sense but it doesn't.....i think we all do that. so just ask us if you don't understand or we didn't explain well enough. we are all willing to help out!
pete, thank you for your post, i think for me it is age, i just can't lift and haul these deeps around like i used to.
i have a question for those of you who run all mediums...scott, tefer......
if you run all mediums, for brood and honey, do you keep the medium brood boxes/frames separate from the medium honey boxes/frames? and if so, how do you keep track of these and not intermix frames used for brood rearing and frames for honey?
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Mrs. River;
have a question for those of you who run all mediums...scott, tefer......
if you run all mediums, for brood and honey, do you keep the medium brood boxes/frames separate from the medium honey boxes/frames? and if so, how do you keep track of these and not intermix frames used for brood rearing and frames for honey?
Sometimes I dont!
If I need more brood frames, it is most often last years honey frames that get sacrificed and used as this years brood frames.. As far as keeping them seperate?
The brood frames are three deep, anything above that is for honey!! ;D Seriously.. Honey supers go on in spring, hopefully TWO per hive, and go UP from there. I do not rotate boxes or do any switching while they are making honey.. When the time comes to extract, the honey supers come off.. Once extracted I may put them back on to be cleaned and repaired etc.. Some years they get partially refilled, some years they GET refilled, some years they get cleaned and ignored.. If the brood boxes need reserves, I pull the supers to make sure they put the honey in the frames they will need for the winter. This is also when I start feeding heavy and fast. The supers should be cleaned well.. I have moth crystals and some BT to use on them before I wrap them in contractors bags for the winter. full and partial frames go in the freezer. If I USE those frames on a hive, like I did this year, I mark them with a red marker HS on the top. That way, when spring arrives I get to open the hive and see brood in it and be bummed I didnt get it out sooner.. then it gets crossed out and BF gets written over the red HS. = Brood Frame and Honey super..
In all honesty, the only frames I have trouble with, are the ones that get frozen and then used on hives that need the honey. Yes I DO mark them, but generally I dont get them back out in time. Thats when they become brood frames instead of honey super frames... I dont swap the other way, meaning I dont put brood frames in the honey super. With a few nucs used to produce new drawn frames, it really saves the day when your a bit lazy and forget to pull your honey frames in time to keep the brood out of them.
Secondary way? I TRY to keep wired wax and the few plastic frames I have in the supers, so the brood comb is all natural foundation.. (Foundation less frames) Every year I work at getting this all straightened out, and every year I find more I have swapped out for one reason or another..
I will say, that I have NEVER run out of places to put the brood comb. However many pieces I let get messed up.. I could use about a hundred more..
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I'm sure after I go to bee school at local club in a few weeks, I will get a better understanding. Actually having my own hive components will be a big help. So when you put on a super for honey production, are the frames bigger? If you made a super out of mediums, would the frame be taller?
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Mediums are smaller frames. You can use the shallow frames too. They are smaller. Two hives I use deeps for my supers. I use this honey to fill in the other hives if they need it. If I don’t use it I extract it for myself. I want my bees to have at least 100 lbs of honey stores to over winter.
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You need to keep deep frames in deep boxes and medium frames in medium boxes ....etc.
I would suggest getting a beekeeping catalog from any of the major suppliers they are pretty explanatory.
I know it's can be confusing sometimes with the archaic terms in beekeeping and the ODD measurements.
A Deep is Over 9 inches tall and a Medium is Over 6 inches tall their respective frames are designed to fit and allow for beespace.
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thanks scott for the reply! i figured you would have an organized method to your madness......... :D
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I'm sure after I go to bee school at local club in a few weeks, I will get a better understanding. Actually having my own hive components will be a big help. So when you put on a super for honey production, are the frames bigger? If you made a super out of mediums, would the frame be taller?
Deep, medium, shallow.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimg.cc%2Fcblbt0mwn%2Fwoodenframes.jpg&hash=da2935742f0ee4f89b2dab9ddd954177c431ec8f) (http://postimg.cc/image/cblbt0mwn/)
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""You need to keep deep frames in deep boxes and medium frames in medium boxes ....etc.""
Thanks, Ray. Worth repeating. Very important.
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I'm sure after I go to bee school at local club in a few weeks, I will get a better understanding. Actually having my own hive components will be a big help. So when you put on a super for honey production, are the frames bigger? If you made a super out of mediums, would the frame be taller?
Deep, medium, shallow.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimg.cc%2Fcblbt0mwn%2Fwoodenframes.jpg&hash=da2935742f0ee4f89b2dab9ddd954177c431ec8f) (http://postimg.cc/image/cblbt0mwn/)
perry has it backwards, in the photo it's shallow, medium, deep............that's okay, sometimes perry's backwards............ :D
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Shown in comparison to one another, it makes it clear. The dimensions in the catalogs make it a little confusing. Thanks Perry!
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perry has it backwards, in the photo it's shallow, medium, deep............that's okay, sometimes perry's backwards............ :D
:P :P :P
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Perry I gave you a by this time buddy, i let the squirt have the fun. :D Jack
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LOL!........................... :D
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Riverbee, all our medium honey supers are painted a different color than our brood boxes.
If I find a box that is has brood in the super, those frames get replaced with foundation.
The brood frame gets moved to a nuc or another hive.
We run excluders so that doesn't happen very much.
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thanks tefer for the reply. if i ran all mediums like you and scott do, i would definitely have to have some organization of it.