Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Jen on January 26, 2015, 01:28:22 pm
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Because my 3 hives are showing signs of ramping up, I would like some advice on reversing hive bodies. I know I need a warm 65 day. You can see that my hives begin with a deep then continue with mediums. This is hubby's idea, but it does pose a problem when reversing hives.
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Then don't do it. What is the purpose? It is usually better to not do anything, then to do something you are not sure of, or not sure of the results.
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I like that advice, Thanks Iddee, I'll wait until a nice warm day a take a look deeper. I do know that two of the hives had ample room left at the end of Fall.
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i don't reverse hives.......and agree with iddee jen.
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Thanks Riv- I do believe I have asked this question before, had quite a discussion last Fall, now I just have to keep in my memory. There's the rub :D
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I do, and it makes a HUGE difference on swarming.. but the bees have to BE in the top of the hive to do it.
I still dont know your weather there.. is it SPRING there? Or do you still have winter ahead of you? If you have Dandelions blooming.. Has spring arrived or not? Doing NOTHING may well have you in the same situation you were last year.
And yes, if it does happen, just make a drink, and go out in your Jammies to watch, and enjoy. I am also still in a bit of confusion about what you have for honey stores.. if your frames are still loaded with honey, reversing wont make any difference..
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You and her both are very near the 42nd lateral parallel north. Other than altitude, should be about the same.
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It's that ocean breeze that messes things up.
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It's that ocean breeze coming over the mountains on a 70 degree day, cooling as it goes up, and dropping snow that night. She's on the eastern slopes
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I don’t reverse my hive bodies, if the bottom box is empty, I take two frames of brood out of the top box and put it in the bottom box. I leave the middle frames open for the queen to lay. The top box, I leave the middle frames open also. If both boxes are full of bees and you cant make splits because you cant get queens. You have to do something different. I bridge in another deep box to give the queen more room to lay. Now she has 3 deeps to lay eggs. I put on my queen excluder and my super at the same time. 99 percent of time my bees will not swarm. our Bees know when its time to build up. They know mother nature better than we do. I try to keep ahead of them. First nice day in the spring. I go thru all my hives once. If I think they need more room to lay I bridge in another deep. All boxes are covered with cover clothes to help keep them warm. It only takes me 10 minutes to do the work with one hive. When I’m done I sit back till the middle part of June till I can get some local queens. Now I make nucs. My bees wont swarm. I wont let them. If you never worked with a 3 deep system. You are in for a big surprise when you open one up. You are dealing with a very massive hive. Be safe.
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Hi,
I do practice most of the time. The key & possible danger is splitting the cluster. If you can split without doing that, then your choice.
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i don't reverse. i keep bees in double deeps. the bees are smarter than we are and know what to do. same concept applies when hiving a package or a nuc. hive them in a deep or two mediums, and when they need the extra space, place it below them, not above them. this goes against everything we have read or for some, what we have been traditionally taught to do. not sure how to explain this or why it works, but it does. the bees move down. winter; the queen and bees move up during winter months. when pollen and nectar become available, the bees start filling the top box/ boxes and 'move' the queen down. they move down on their own. reversing can sometimes separate the brood, and most often times does because the bees are in two boxes irregardless of the configuration.
like ray, and many other northern keeps, i have found myself short on getting queens when i want them. i keep an eye on what's going on. best thing to do is utilize queen cells to make up nucs/divides/splits or light divides to my best colonies to avert swarming and/or sometimes also added supers or supers of foundation to keep them busy and keep them from swarming. no excluder with foundation, and no excluder with drawn foundation until i see these being worked and filled, and before the queen gets really busy and laying up in them.
bees will swarm. it's their nature.
ray, i have kept 3 deep systems, a lot of hard work.
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Riverbee
I agree its work. I can tell you have experience with the 3 deep system. What I like about it. It cuts down on swarming, I get more honey, I have more bees to make better nucs. What I don’t like about it. 3 deeps turn into a mite factory. Its work keeping the mite load down to a safe level. You know what its like to keep bees up north. When you talk I listen. You educated me about that homasote board. Its been so cold here. I wont take the cover off till it warms up a little.
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"3 deeps turn into a mite factory"
Sorry to get off topic, but I ran the 3 deeps last year, mainly because of the good flows we were having and didn't want to deal with late season swarms. I noticed the same thing, I'm thinking it's because they pumped out such a large amount of drones.
And no I don't reverse hive bodies.
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I run double deeps, but if I happen across one boiling over I'm not above throwing a third one on there, it happens.
I do reverse in the spring but only if all the brood is in the upper box.
Now about river's post "the bees are smarter than we are",.............................speak for yourself! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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i admit it perry!.............. ;D............. :D
3 deep system is and can be a great deal of management, especially if you follow the university of minnesota's teaching method on this.
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I've experimented with swapping hive bodies, but I don't know if it did any good or not. However, another year I didn't reverse, both hives swarmed. So after long and meaningful deliberations with myself, I think having a bee vacuum is a good tool to have available (especially with the price of bees now!).
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I just reversed my hygenic hive but virtually all the bees brood and food were in the top, the bottom was empty comb (it's a double deep - but in the same situation I also reverse mediums.)
I am MUCH farther south, and it is acting springy here, by reversing I had access to that empty comb and was able to swap them for full honey frames in case winter returns. If I did not reverse them I'd have an empty bottom box, a full 2nd box and had to add another deep on. My hive stand sits about 20 inches off the ground and a 3 stack is hard on me.
When I went to add the now thawed honey frames the bees had already begun filling the top box.
All beekeeping is local. The #1 reason to reverse is full top box empty bottom box.
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Very good video on this topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qlnss9-oR4
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Atta boy perry i like your thinking. O:-) I have tried not reversing my two deeps and had more swarming than when i did. In my area the queen moves up in the top box lays it full and refuses to move down and i start seeing swarm cells, the bottom box will have 3 to 4 frames of pollen and the rest open comb. By then it's to late to switch, so i make up nucs, like slow says, with the price of bees you can't afford to loose bees. It may have something to do with the age of the queen? you know how women are ;D, they don't like to stay where people know them and watch them grow OLD, they would rather go where nobody knows them. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Jack
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Jack- "you know how women are , they don't like to stay where people know them and watch them grow OLD, they would rather go where nobody knows them.
Mr. Jack! That is not true! It is my observation over the years that women will stay where they feel comfortable and have a purpose. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :)
Jack- "In my area the queen moves up in the top box lays it full and refuses to move down
I found that same situation with one of my hives this last summer, didn't matter the configuration of the hive, the bees stayed put. This was the hive I was sure had a dink in it. She simply layed just so many eggs and that was it! When the temperature is right, it will be interesting to see what's going on in that hive.
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HeHe, i think i hit a nerve jen, when my mom or wife started with the Mr. phrase, i knew trouble was coming my way, but you know i wouldn't say anything to aggravate anyone. ;D Jack
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HeHe, i think i hit a nerve jen, when my mom or wife started with the Mr. phrase, i knew trouble was coming my way, but you know i wouldn't say anything to aggravate anyone. ;D Jack
Don't believe it, not for a second! ;D
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Jack- "when my mom or wife started with the Mr. phrase
Okay Mr. Snarky Pants, please clarify the line above :)
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I would imagine he means the same as when my wife starts glaring at me and calling me MISTAH... as in LISTEN HERE MISTAH... I need to run, hide or faint.. Trying to pretend I am already hurt, or to look cute doesnt work.. Not sure how the cat on the Shrek movie gets away with it? I perfected that look and it only makes her hysterical. Fainting doesnt ALWAYS work either, because she thinks PAIN will wake someone from a fainting spell.. actually it does, especially when your faking it....
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I figured it was something like that... and we don't get easier on you guys as we gain more wisdom thru the later years. I need to keep hubby around because he can 'Fix Stuff'. So I do yoga, take walks, have a beer, whatever it takes to 'Stay Calm' for hubby's sake. :D
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the depth of the box really should have no real bearing on whether you reverse or not. in about 50% of the hives here the queen moves down all by herself and there is really nothing to be gained by reversing. in this process of reversing if the cluster is way above the bottom board then cleaning the bottom board of debris way ahead of wax moth and shb is as (if not more) important than reversing the boxes. A GUESS... if your hives are only two boxes deep then if you leave them as they are then quite likely the cluster will move down all by itself. AGAIN you still need to be alert concerning trash on the bottom board.
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Tec! Three is a charm, Iddee and Riverbee have said the same thing. I'll take it. Thanks a bunch ;D
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Well.. I cant argue with the experts, but I will say, if you dont want to reverse. I wish you good luck. If I dont reverse my bees will be in the trees.
Perhaps it is the three boxes as opposed to two? Depth of the box? The extra gap to cross to go back down?
Reversing puts a lot of space above the queen, and its like putting sugar on in the fall. Insurance. Perhaps you dont need to reverse, but what have you hurt if you do? Nothing at all.
I was taught to reverse more than 30 years ago. More recently I decided it was not necessary, kind of like trying no upper ventilation this winter.. You'd think I would learn NOT to change what I know works.
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I think it's different for us on the medium setups. At the end of winter our bottom box is always empty. Moving that to the top does two things, gives us a chance to clean the bottom board and instantly gives the queen space above to lay in. When you run deeps, there is more of a chance to divide the cluster when you reverse. That's a bad thing to do early on. The queen will eventually move down, but at their own pace.
If I don't move boxes, I'm in there twice as much pulling frames of brood to keep them out the trees.
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I would have to concede that if you split the cluster and brood that would not be a good thing.
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Tefer said it all. Split your brood nest and order new packages. Reverse or remove a totally empty box doesn't hurt.
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we all have different setups, or hive configurations. i keep bees in double deeps. i have kept bees in 3 deeps. what a nightmare and a great deal of management. i can't speak or say what works for other beeks with different hive configurations because i have no experience with this.
great replies by tec and tefer.
like tefer said, brood can be extended into the bottom deep, so this is one reason why i do not reverse, but i have also found them crammed into the top deep with a totally empty deep on the bottom and found that the queen moves down. another good point tec made was about the bottom board, and making sure that it is clean or switched out. for us northern keeps, we can have piles of dead bees and other debris on the bottom board. i tend to clean these out late winter going into spring, with a slim jim, that i can reach into the back of the hive with and pull out. later, when the weather warms up, swarm season arrives, divides to be made, i will clean that bottom board off or switch it out.
another thing i have learned or think there is merit to; many of us scrape all the burr comb/ladder comb the bees build between the frames. i don't scrape all of this off or discard it. i 'break the seal' of the ladder comb, but leave it in place. just me maybe and my thinking, but i think this enables the bees and queens to move much more easily between the deeps.
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Hi Riv :) So, you are talking ladder comb that is between the top of the frames and extends to the bottom of the upper frames? does that make sense?
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yes jen, and it made sense ;)
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Yes, I do see where the ladder comb would be convenient for the bees, more than likely that why they built it there :) I have been knocking it off, but I think now I will leave it on. Thanks!
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If you leave it on, and I do quite often, be careful not to smash bees (or a queen) when the box goes back on.
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i leave the burr comb in place, or scrape just enough off the tops of the top of the frames of the first deep going into winter months. i don't leave it there season long. i will clean it off in the spring months when i am dividing hives. if you don't clean it off, it's a stinker pulling frames from the 2nd deep or lifting the 2nd deep from the first deep and having frames glued to each other from the burr comb.
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Yes, I have run into that situation in the spring. And like Scott said it's a bit of a worry lowering that burr comb back down with out hushing the bees or the queen :sad:
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Good topic! And like most things, differing views. That's why I love this forum! Anyway, I did complete inspections on two hives today. Live Riv, I really want to let the bees do what they do. I will try to keep them from swarming, but sometimes, they swarm anyway. But these two hives were very similar. The main cluster was in the top box. Queen laying and capped brood with plenty of stores surrounding and within reach. The bottom box had no brood as best as I could tell, honey in the corners of the frames and A LOT of pollen. I would say the bottom frames were about 75% full of pollen. So I decided to reverse. Now, it will be interesting to see where they decide to put the new pollen. If I had a pollen trap, I might put it on, especially on one hive. I don't know if I did the right thing or not. Only time will tell. My queens aren't marked and was glad that I found one of them. I watched her for a while and enjoyed watching her busily searching for a cell to lay in.
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a partial LazyBkp snip...
Well.. I cant argue with the experts,
Reversing puts a lot of space above the queen, and its like putting sugar on in the fall. Insurance. Perhaps you dont need to reverse, but what have you hurt if you do? Nothing at all.
tecumseh...
all good point Lazy and imho there is nothing wrong with arguing with experts (which just between me and you and in casual reflection of your own beekeeping resume you certainly do qualify for that particular title). reversing whether good or bad or potential disaster may well be dependent on landscape and the intensity and duration of the first flow. which is to suggest that what works in one place may perhaps not work so well somewhere else. as I suggested in my prior post reversing here only appears to be necessary in about 50% of the hives I inspect but for that 50% this simple manipulation may well be the difference between a hive swarming and not swarming..... or I suspect the difference between an early infestation of wax moth or not.
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I always scrape off burr comb and most ladder comb, especially between my brood chambers. I sometimes leave it on if it extends from the bottom box to the bottom board. There is no way I want to be setting that upper deep down and have that queen decide just then that she wants to go over top of a frame.
Seriously, I doubt that having ladder comb removed prevents the girls from getting where they want to go unless they are really lazy.
Besides, I need the wax for my candles, and if they want it they can build some more! :D
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"Physicist Neils Bohr once quipped, An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field.
This definition clearly excludes me from being any sort of expert, since I exuberantly continue to make new mistakes in my own beekeeping adventures."
Randy Oliver
A lot of experience, with no practical application until the last few years. So like Mr. Oliver says, I am no expert. I have used the argument often enough, that location, climate and bees all make a huge difference in method. Thank you Tec, I needed the reminder.
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Here's a good one for you. I was mentoring a beek a few years ago. The second or third year we went into my hives together. He had asked many times why I didn't reverse hive bodies. On this particular day, the first hive we went into, I said, "Now here's a good example of beekeeping. I don't reverse, but this hive I am reversing. The bottom box has nothing but pollen, the top box has nothing in the bottom third. It needs reversing."{
As I've said before, there's no hard, fast rules in beekeeping. You do what you think best in each situation and hope for the best.
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You know, it was kind of weird for me. When I went into those two hives, there was just something that made me decide to reverse. Nothing in the bottom box but pollen. They appeared so organized and efficient. I have another hive that is a strong hive, but looks like they really don't know which way is up. It looked as if there was no organization with different stuff everywhere. The thought of reversing never crossed my mind. Again, with each hive situation, the decision can be different. On the two that I reversed, we shall see how they do.
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Makes sense. I do not ALWAYS do anything. When in doubt I don't act, that's cost me a hive or 2. My gut says reverse, I reverse. I listen to my gut and see what the bees are doing and consult gut heavily.
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I hear you Gypsi, but be careful listening to your gut, my gut kept leading me to Wendy's for a chocolate frosty til my belt was in the last notch and i couldn't see my belt buckle anymore. :o Jack
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I never reverse brood boxes as I think it is better to checkerboard. The queen will seldom go over stored honey to the upper brood box and checkerboarding will give her a path. I do reverse supers, they seem to fill faster.
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I hear you Gypsi, but be careful listening to your gut, my gut kept leading me to Wendy's for a chocolate frosty til my belt was in the last notch and i couldn't see my belt buckle anymore. :o Jack
Litening to the gut? is that anything like the voices I hear all the time? I'd be terrified to listen to them, and you really dont wnat to know what they keep telling me to do! :o ;D
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well ya'll had fun with that. Went through both my hives Friday afternoon, the small hive with the Beeweavers queen is still the smaller of the 2 but the queen is laying up a storm and they have stores all around the brood and the box I added on top I made sure the heaviest honeystores were over the broodnest.
and the bees I reversed box on are packing in stores in the top box from syrup, and the queen had eggs in the top center frame. Didn't go through the bottom, all appears well and I didn't want to roll the queen.