Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: tbonekel on December 26, 2013, 09:26:03 pm
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Quick question on best way to feed bees using the bag method. I filled up some gallon sized bags of sugar water and placed them on the top of the frames and cut some slits. Now at this time, I only have hives in single deeps (small colonies) and the bags are placed on the frames inside another deep. Then I place the inner cover on that top deep. There is lots of air space in that top deep and I'm wondering if I should take that one off and replace with a medium. Does it matter? And, would guys recommend bag feeding? Why or why not?
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Well, my advice is probably way off base due to location.
Up here we never feed liquid below 50 F. If I have to feed anything after that it is in the form of fondant.
If you have a lot of empty space above your baggie, come spring don't be surprised if it's full of some nasty comb. If you have to, just use a 1 inch shim on top of your brood deep.
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I have never used the bag feeder, but I would do as Perry suggested and make a shim just high enough to allow then to get on top the bag. Whatever you do, get it off before they start drawing comb in the spring, or the first place they will draw is from the inner lid and fill the empty space.
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Just use it below your inner cover, instead of on top like I do for fondant.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FMidFeb009_zps8a228f0c.jpg&hash=71c3a5bcd1d8885798a117f60841870effb03d4c) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/MidFeb009_zps8a228f0c.jpg.html)
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Thanks for the advice! I plan on building some nice inner covers like that one, but right now I have one standard cover purchased from Dadant and then 4 more that I built myself that are a lot like that one. Under that style of inner cover there is not enough room to place a bag. I'm still pretty new at this and as the temps get warmer I will watch for comb in that space.
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tbone, look at the pic again. There is a shim setting on Perry's inner cover. It's the shim he is talking about.You can buy a 1 X1 1/2 board and cut 2 end pieces and 2 side pieces. Nail them together and you have the shim. It's like a 2 in. high super. Put it on the hive, then the inner and outer lids. It will protect the bag and leave very little open space.
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As far as winter is concerned I don't know.
With mine I got them all heavy before the first nightly freeze and stopped (started full feeding them first of October until they were almost syrup bound). The majority are still heavy now.
I've switched to migratory covers that can double as a bottom board that way the same piece of equipment can serve two purposes. Then each has a 5/16 hole drilled in the center that can be plugged with a little ball of wax when not in use.
I drill a 1/4 hole in a jar lid. Solder in place about a 3/4 inch piece of copper tubing flared on one end. Then invert jars on the hives with that little tube going down in there. So far they look to be the most efficient route for me.
I have natural cell raised bees so they are tini. If i don't slightly smash the end of the tubing with pliers. One will end up getting her head/thorax stuck in there. :/
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tbone, look at the pic again. There is a shim setting on Perry's inner cover. It's the shim he is talking about.You can buy a 1 X1 1/2 board and cut 2 end pieces and 2 side pieces. Nail them together and you have the shim. It's like a 2 in. high super. Put it on the hive, then the inner and outer lids. It will protect the bag and leave very little open space.
Thanks iddee! Now I know what you mean by shim. I've always known a shim to be the little piece of wood you place in a door frame to square up the door. I can make me up a bunch of those shim for the hives in nothing flat. Thanks again!
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I use a vent shim/super that is about 3" tall for ventilation and to allow enough room to place a baggy of syrup on top of the inner cover.
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Save those old boxes when the corner starts to rot out on.. cut enough off the top to get the bad spot out and cut the rest of it into shims!!
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Save those old boxes when the corner starts to rot out on.. cut enough off the top to get the bad spot out and cut the rest of it into shims!!
Waste not, want not! ;)
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they make good swarm traps also.
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tbone, look at the pic again. There is a shim setting on Perry's inner cover. It's the shim he is talking about.You can buy a 1 X1 1/2 board and cut 2 end pieces and 2 side pieces. Nail them together and you have the shim. It's like a 2 in. high super. Put it on the hive, then the inner and outer lids. It will protect the bag and leave very little open space.
Thanks iddee! Now I know what you mean by shim. I've always known a shim to be the little piece of wood you place in a door frame to square up the door. I can make me up a bunch of those shim for the hives in nothing flat. Thanks again!
Tbone what beekeepers call a shim is best described as being a "spacer." That's what we would call it in the oil patch. In my beginning readings, it was a confusing issue with me also.
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Looking at your forecast, I'd remove the syrup and replace with sugar. It's going to be cold and the syrup will introduce unneeded moisture into the hive. Make sure your hive is ventilated so moist air can rise and escape. Put Popsicle sticks under your telescoping cover if you don't have a notch cut into your inner cover. If you think you need to feed, put some sugar on a newspaper on top of the brood frames, and put an empty super around that (than your inner and telescoping covers).
Also, check with local beekeepers and see what they're doing or what they advise. Beekeeping really does vary with location.
Good luck! :)
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First, I want to state that I hate feeding bees anytime. That being stated, I placed some high dollar Mann Lake Bee patties on my hive a week ago. Since that time, the temps have been below 40 degrees at night with daytime temps warming to the 50's and 60's. I took a look at the ranch hives today, and the bees have not touched them. Yes, they still have some capped honey, but I thought they would use the patties also. Even with capped stores, they will take some sugar syrup this time of the year, but the patties are supposedly (according to the advertisements) more nutritious than sugar syrup. I thought the patties would help them to build up. The patties are also much easier on the beekeeper. Like I said, I hate feeding as I have never found a satisfactory way to feed bees.
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Lazy Shooter- I'm always in a quantry myself about sugar syrup feeding, I consider myself Iddee's problem child when we're disgussing this issue. I've been keeping now for 3 years, have had my share of disasters. By the end of last year, my third season, I have now a rull healthy hive. Now the concern is keeping them strong and healthy. If it comes right down to it I will use drivert sugar before I use sugar syrup.
This winter I have decided to also use a winter patties if needed instead of sugar syrup. But so far I'm not able to lift up the hive so I think there is still enough stores.
Does your winter food contain pollen?
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lazy, as long as they have capped honey in the hive, they will probably not touch the patties until they are out on the frames.....or just wait until your queen starts laying and the hive kicks into high gear on brood rearing.....you will thank yourself for putting those patties in there.
jaybird most of the winter patties do not contain pollen, you buy these separately.
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riv- I doin it! gonna make an order tomorrow and have them on hand in case I need them. Last year I tried to buy some thru Dadant, and they were completely out! Dang! bad time of year for them to be out. Fortunately my bees made it thru.
Thanks for all your info today ;)
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OK Riverbee, I will leave the patties in place and see what happens. The surprising thing to me was that these girls (when I am mad at them, i call them hussies) will take syrup any time. Therefore, I thought they would take patties any time. Oh well, I will wait and see.
Jaybird, my bees start bringing in pollen on warm days by mid January. They seem to always have pollen stored. It's nectar that has been scarce in my drought ridden country.
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(when I am mad at them, i call them hussies)
Yeeeeah, I'll do my best to ignore that statement tsk tsk tsk
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I have a couple light hives. A few days ago I had a short work day. 9 hrs! It was 50 degrees out so I checked on hives. They were almost out of fondant. It was already late in the day so I couldn't add more to them. It'll be in the low 20's till Wednesday. Suppose to warm up to 40. I'll have the day off so I'll go out and add more fondant to these 2 hives. Don't like that they are so low.
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I'm thinking about making my own winter patties. Youtube has a couple of recipies called 'Grease patties' using Crisco shortening? Really! That Is Disgusting!
Are grease patties the same as winter patties? please tell me it's not so... blech
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It's not so....... :)
Grease patties are to treat for tracheal mites, not for feeding bees.
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But the bees still can eat it right? that's what the one youtuber was making them for, winter food. How would these grease patties treat trach mites? Let me think..... if the trach mites go for the throat, then the crisco shortening would be too gooey in the throat for the trach's to survive?
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If you want this question posted on the pests forum just say so :D
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jen, no need to post your question in pests and diseases, but if you would like, start a thread on treatment for trachael mites using grease patties there.
just for clarification, can you post the link to the you tube video you are referring to? like iddee said grease patties are not used for winter feed. they might be added in addition to, but posting the link to the video would help us answer your question.
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Okee Doke, I'll look it up again. Thanks!
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I haven't seen this method before, what do you guys think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5IfrhtYtFU
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That looked a little thin to me. I would like to have seen how they cleaned it up and how many casualties there were.
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Something I noticed was that he mentioned making up the 1 to 1 syrup about a month ago. I would have been making it 2 to 1 at that time of year.
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It seemed like a pretty insignificant amount of feed and quite a bit of unnecessary empty space up top.
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my humble opinion? i wouldn't use this method, and for reasons already stated. sometimes we can do more harm to our bees than good.
i am confused was he using powdered/confectioner's sugar or granulated sugar?
"kinda taking a risk at opening the hive at 30 degrees".....i'd say so, and left the lid off too long, my HO. (pushing it a little at that temp).
cold wet syrup running/dripping on the cluster?
like others said, this is not enough, and like perry said 2:1 vs. 1:1
he didn't need the spacer, but didn't appear to be using an inner cover.
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riv- he put granulated sugar in the blender and made his own powdered sugar, because store bought pwd sugar has corn starch in it. Then added the pwd sugar to his syrup. I can see how the bees would enjoy it cause it easy to consume. But I dunno, what if you get a real warm day... gooey mess dropping on the bees, condensation.
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THINK... A medium frame holds more than a quart of honey. Now, just how much did he feed them. Replacing the heat loss from opening the hive the way he did, cost them more food consumption than he fed. His end result was helping to deplete their stores.
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Well!! Okay!! But I was more concerned about the actual sugar sauce that he made for them and if it was going to ooz thru the newspaper.
ps I'M ALWAYS THINKING 8)
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"ps I'M ALWAYS THINKING"
So that's where all the smoke is coming from. I thought it was from the California wildfires. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I haven't chimed in on the feeding thread until now. After some thought I am unsure but it sounds like theirs more talk of winter feeding on the forums this winter than in past years. My take is if you got your winter preparation right and start into winter with heavy hives you shouldn't have to worry about feeding until mid to late February when brood rearing begins. At that point they will begin to blow through the stores and if mother nature plays by the rules it should be warm enough when hives get light to add 1:1 syrup which would be in mid to late march. ;)
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Hardy Har Har Mr. Wizard ~wink~
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My take is if you got your winter preparation right and start into winter with heavy hives you shouldn't have to worry about feeding until mid to late February when brood rearing begins. At that point they will begin to blow through the stores and if mother nature plays by the rules it should be warm enough when hives get light to add 1:1 syrup which would be in mid to late march. ;)
Thats exactly right MM..
This guy just added a lot of moisture to his hives as well as very little feed hes using migratory covers.. I didnt see if he had any other ventilation, but it looked like trouble to me. I like the granulated sugar because it helps absorb some moisture not add it. I opened my hives when it was that cold my mentor would slap me upside the head with a hailstone the size of a baseball.
Last part of December, January and February I just dont get chances to open the hives. If I dont have something on there beforehand they don't get it. Not sure how much good the preps are going to do this year. All I can do is cross my fingers and wait.
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i really have to say, that video is not something i would be proud of, or posted on you tube....just my HO. further, it's unfortunate that beginning beeks will follow or try this, with detrimental results.
jen, would never add or use powdered sugar. would most likely not open a hive at 30 degrees and keep the lid off the way he did, and wouldn't feed them the little amount of 'slop' he did. just my HO. i see this stuff sometimes.....well.....
what iddee said and what the 'wizard' (lol) (MM) said. MM is right on about leaving the bees enough stores to get them through until march. if that means feeding them in the fall to get them heavy or leaving an extra super on, so be it, better than what is shown in this video.
and even when we do all the right things to ensure the hives are heavy, we lose our bees for other reasons. but this video is not an appropriate way to feed bees, again my HO.
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Thanks you guys! This video... I sure did learn what not to do.
But curious... why granulated sugar, and drivert sugar, but no powdered sugar?
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Granulated and drivert is pure sugar. Powdered sugar has corn starch added to keep it from lumping. Corn starch gives bees dysentery.
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Right! I learned that from this guys video, he said to not use store bought powdered sugar because of the corn starch. So he made his own in the blender with gran sugar. So would his pwd sugar then be harmful?
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NO, it isn't powdered sugar. It's ground up pure sugar.
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no his is pure granulated sugar that has been run through a blender to make it finer. Which with what hes doing I can see serving no purpose.
Unless he is adding corn starch it is not the same as store bought powdered sugar which has corn starch added
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Bees in the wild do not get fed, yet they live from year to year. Also, they do not get robbed, as least robbed by man. Therefore, feeding bees is not a natural event. I end up feeding my bees from time to time, but I hate it.
This is one of those threads that proves, if you ask 10 beekeepers you get 11 opinions.
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Hey Lazy- I'm with ya all the way on feeding, I've been trying not to, and didn't last summer. They made enough honey for themselves and seem to be doing well so far this summer. However, some of the beeks in my area said that they just aren't getting any honey, which tells me that maybe they will make just enough for themselves. If I feed them, then I told that that will help them produce extra honey. My personal judge and jury is still out on this issue.
Also, I must tell you that, Yes! hives Do get robbed! It took me three years to get my hive up and running healthy and last year, a strange black bottomed bee, maybe feral, came to my hive every day, it freaked my bees out and they swarmed three times. So I got a robbing screen and I still once in awhile see this black bottomed bee hanging out at the bottom of the screen, but they don't know how to get in.
If you are on Facebook, look up Peace Bees, they are out of Indiana, they don't feed or medicate, they are successful, and they are a great bunch of people. They helped me out tremendously last spring when I was panicking about 3 swarms leaving my hive.
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Jaybird your swarming will hurt your honey production. But also if your overfeeding it can cause swarming. Just a thought to think about
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Minnie- I know! that why I put the robbing screen on, because the robbing bees were freaking out my bees and they up and split!
If you read this full post you will see that I haven't been feeding since last summer.
I think things will be better this season ~ crossing fingers
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"Hey Lazy- I'm with ya all the way on feeding, I've been trying not to, and didn't last summer. They made enough honey for themselves and seem to be doing well so far this summer. However, some of the beeks in my area said that they just aren't getting any honey, which tells me that maybe they will make just enough for themselves. If I feed them, then I told that that will help them produce extra honey. My personal judge and jury is still out on this issue."
jen, there are times that our bees need to be fed unless you want to starve them to death and lose them, plain and simple. lots of reasons for this, beekeep error; taking too much honey off and not leaving them with enough to survive on any time of the year. a summer dearth; and we have all had dearths the past few years. if we don't feed them we lose them, and we lose everything we have invested in our bees. do you want to starve your bees? and i would ask anyone this question.....feed or starve? if there is nothing available for them to sustain themselves then how can they survive? and how can we expect the bees to make honey if there are little or no nectar sources? feeding bees does not help them produce extra honey. feeding in the spring stimulates brood production; in simple terms- so that the queen lays prolifically, to produce forager bees that go out and collect from the nectar sources. this also applies when we divide hives or create nuc hives.
i am not certain why folks are opposed to feeding? would you starve your farm critters thinking there is enough forage for them?
just my two cents on the subject of feeding bees. :)
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riv- up late are ya? :) I know... I'm getting dragged in kicking but not screaming.
I just wonder how beeks keep all their hives fed when they have 1,000 hives?
You made a lot of good points! I'm listening
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Most use inside feeders and have a large tank of corn syrup mounted on a trailer, with an electric pump and nozzle.
Jaybird, robbing does NOT cause swarming. A robbed hive will stay and fight until they are dead.
Swarming is from a strong hive that wants to reproduce.
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jen, i was up late....sometimes the only time i have peace and quiet around here...... :D
all i am trying to say is, if you want honey, you need bees to make it. if you don't feed your bees when necessary, then you won't have any bees to make the honey we all desire. about two years ago, we had a good spring flow, my bees put away a great deal of honey. then the floods and rains came and didn't quit, and then a dearth. i left the supers on for the bees to sustain themselves. i keep russians. these queens stop laying at the first sign of a dearth, so population drops dramatically. when the supers ran out, i fed syrup to get my queens to start laying again, (making the bees think there is a flow and sustain them). had i not done so, i would have lost those hives unnecessarily to starvation. a flow started late in the season. the bees managed to put away a decent amount of honey to sustain through winter months, i still have the majority of these hives.
feeding can get expensive, but so are bees and queens and starting all over again. if you start with package bees or nucs, typically one will not see any honey until the next season. :)
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Iddee- I have wondered about that, but is was the only self explaination I could figure at the time, because we were also getting these 'black butt' bees arriving at my hive during the same time the hive swarmed three times. It was a bit freaky.
By the way, please feel free to call me Jen ;)
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I like jaybird better... :P ;D
If you fed early, they brooded up early and filled all available space before you added more boxes. That's why they swarmed.