Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: LindsayBrower1 on February 12, 2015, 07:08:48 am
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How would you suggest administering Fumagillin to a few hives in the dead of winter? I got a suggestion to try to put it into candy bricks but I'm worried that the heat of the candy process might make the Fumagillin ineffective. Any good advice out there?
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No boiling etc, just warm water from the tap. Only need a small amount of water too, just enough to make the sugar moist and form it into cakes, then set it out to dry and make it bricks.
I also have NO IDEA if using this method will make any difference. I am going to try it JUST because I know of no other alternative, so watching this post to see how everyone else might do it.
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according to medivet's instructions, heat damages the fumagillin:
"Do not incorporate Fumagilin-B into hot sugar syrup. Heat will damage fumagillin"
pdf here:
Fumagilin-B and Nosema in Bees (http://medivet.ca/pdf/Fumagilin-B%20and%20Nosema%20in%20Bees.pdf)
not sure about the candy brick, think i would be tempted to try it in a pollen patty, or winter patty? i went to randy olivers website on this, a couple links lindsay:
The “Nosema Twins” – Part 4 Treatment (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-4-treatment/)
Field Trial of Several Nosema Treatments (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/field-trial-of-several-nosema-treatments/)
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Jeez... According to Medivet, Heat WILL NOT harm your syrup... Heat from normal tap water... NOT heat from boiling syrup... but I do not know the dividing line. I will see if I can EMail them again.
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OK.. It is recommended that you do not heat above 50 degrees C
so thats about 123 degrees F? I think my tap water is a bit warmer than that.. I'll have to check...
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Scott what about kneading it into some fondont? Maybe eliminating the water would be a better option? I don't know
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This is a good thread! And Lindsay, I applaud your willingness to experiment.. that's how we learn, and ya never know, you might just come up with something that works, and the rest of us haven't thought of before ;)
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It wasn't really my idea but thank you Jen ;) I didn't think putting syrup or drenching was at all an option for me but then heard a pollen patty might be a good idea. I thought that was a good idea as well. I discussed it with another beek who's opinion that the added protein from the protein patty would make things worse. I've heard mix reviews on it... I have just been reading a bunch of different articles and talking to a few different people.
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Scott what about kneading it into some fondont? Maybe eliminating the water would be a better option? I don't know
Lindsay, I would say at this point there would certainly be no harm done by trying, as long as it's not super cold out.
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I don't know why anyone would put such a serious medication in their hives. This stuff causes deformity in children, is banned in most countries and the effectiveness of it in dealing with creanae is poor at best. It can contaminate honey and one of my selling points is that I do not use stuff like this in my hives. Gets me a premium price.
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What do you use to battle Nosema (Apis or Ceranae)? Have you taken a survivor approach?
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I about to loose all of my hives if I don't do something so this is a last ditch effort. I don't know what else to do. My other thread is posted as "dead hive" that explains my situation.
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Go for it (mixed in fondant). I don't like treating unless I have to, but if it boils down to lose them or treat them, I treat.
If no fondant, I would even try mixing some fumagillan with icing sugar and sprinkle some either on the ends of your top bars or even onto the cluster.
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I picked up fondant today Perry ;) going to try like heck... Your exactly right, the way they look, it's do or die at this point.
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There may be those that will disagree with me Lindsay, but that's OK, I understand that. I'm just trying to keep you in the game. ;)
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I would proceed as already outlined. You could use ICE COLD water to mix the fumagilin into before mixing it with the sugar, the warm water just accepts the fumigilin better, and mixes into the sugar nicer..
camero7
"I don't know why anyone would put such a serious medication in their hives."
What difference does it make if its the only chance they have left? So, is it better to let them die so you can say you didnt use that medication?
Last time I checked, Winter in NY is not typically the time when supers are on the hive, so I doubt there will be any contamination of the honey?
I really try to understand where everyone is coming from, but I am having a little difficulty here. If your pride is centered around telling people you dont use Fumagilin.. Great!!! But dont come down on the folks who prefer to save their bees. Or.. you have a better remedy?
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lindsay, i tend to agree with what tefer said on your other thread "Dead Hive" but also, please read my last comment.
in part from tefer:
"Getting the bees to consume the treatment is going to be your problem this time of year.
Most use some sort of drench, the bees clean each other ingesting the treated syrup.
Sick bees normally don't eat a whole lot, that's the reason you dump it on them.
It is to cold to dump wet liquid on the cluster for you.
I don't know the success rate for treating after the fact, but I assume that it's very low.
I would just let nature take it's course and see if some make it through.
Plan on replacing those frames and cleaning up the hive components."
if one reads through oliver's research and writings to understand how fumagillin works and applications required and how nosema affects the bees, oliver does say this (to what tefer said):
"4. Depopulation and Collapse–Finally, the bees “lose ventricular function” (they can no longer digest food), stop eating (and stop taking medicated syrup, or pollen supplement), and simply starve to death in the midst of plenty. Most adults die far from the hive, leaving only a handful of young bees and the queen.
Colonies can collapse either during summer or winter, but the character of the infection differs. During cold season collapse, most bees are infected, and spore counts exceed 10 million spores per bee. Contrarily, under warm season breakdown, less than half the bees are infected, and spore counts are generally much lower. Forager bees just die in the field, and the colony shows no symptoms other than dwindling away."
with the above said, i see no harm in trying it in fondant, given your situation, and would probably be willing to try for myself to see the end result.
good luck and best wishes. keep us posted. it's hard losing hives. for myself, for the times i suspected the bees died of nosema, there were plenty of honey stores. from my own experience and to what tefer has said from his experience and what i quoted from oliver, sick bees don't eat. this makes sense, when we are sick, we don't eat very well either. anyway, i hope this is not the case for you. it's worth a try. that's how we learn ;)
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Thank you guys! My findings on the dead hive are this... A lot of bees, no marked queen that was there in fall, a few torn up queen cells ( I actually pulled a " casting" out of one or whatever that would be called), plenty of available food but a lot of bees that were dead in the cells! I read an article online that stated this about nosema Apis "If the queen is infected, her ovaries degenerate and egg production drops due to atrophy of the oocytes, after which she is likely to be superseded."
I'm anxious to see what they say after looking at my bee samples under the microscope.
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lindsay, will be looking forward to your post on your findings under the microscope!
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Lindsay- "A lot of bees
This is exciting news, it means there is still a chance. I'm on your page girl! ;D
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That was my finding on the dead hive but the other hives do have a high population. Going to put the medication on ASAP. Thanks for the support :yes:
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But dont come down on the folks who prefer to save their bees. Or.. you have a better remedy?
Well, there are some very good studies that report that hives treated with Fumagillin do not survive as well as those left untreated. Also my bees often tend to move honey up into the supers to make room for brood, if that happens who's to say that some doesn't get up there. I also notice that the OP has no spore counts, doesn't really know if the bees have nosema and which strain they have. I NEVER treat for anything without a diagnosis and some assurance that the treatment will benefit the bees. Those that have read my postings over the years know I am not against treatment, use it regularly for mites. But I draw the line at a poison that is proven to be pretty much ineffective.
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Well, there are some very good studies that report that hives treated with Fumagillin do not survive as well as those left untreated.
Well, there are some very good studies that report hives treated with Fumagilin come into spring BOOMING.. And in fact many commercial Apiaries dont like to use it, because it is nearly impossible to stop early swarming when they do.
Also my bees often tend to move honey up into the supers to make room for brood, if that happens who's to say that some doesn't get up there.
I typically remove honey and syrup when the major flow starts because I dont want syrup from last year up in my supers any more than I want Fumagilin up there. Your saying you let them put the syrup in your supers and thats OK?
I also notice that the OP has no spore counts, doesn't really know if the bees have nosema and which strain they have. I NEVER treat for anything without a diagnosis and some assurance that the treatment will benefit the bees. Those that have read my postings over the years know I am not against treatment, use it regularly for mites. But I draw the line at a poison that is proven to be pretty much ineffective.
Well I am really glad for you. i dont have the money to spend, so I have to depend on what I see. What I see looks like Nosema. AFAIK there is only one way to treat nosema. I have heard about conflicting reports, but have never seen any detailed proof.. if i did see detailed proof, i would probably STILL use it because there is nothing else to try that MIGHT save my hives.
Fumagilin-B is the only approved nosema treatment in North America. It has been demonstrated to be effective against Nosema ceranae, and Nosema Apis. Adding Fumagilin-B to your fall syrup, the syrup you use to insure your hives have as much capped honey/syrup as possible before winter arrives will insure Nosema does not become a problem. The bees will feed on this syrup through the winter, and come out BOOMING in the spring.
What you see above is one of the articles I have copied. i have other sites that say similar. I can come up with sites PROVING it works. You can come up with sites PROVING it doesnt.. Welcome to beekeeping!
The fact is, it is approved for use in hives, even if "YOU" do not like it. So I say again, Please don't come down on folks for doing the best they can with the only thing they have available.
I dont claim you are against treating, nor do i even harbor ill will if you choose not to use Fumagilin.. I do take exception to the vehemence with which you discredit something useful and necessary. Something I have used for quite a long time with no bad experiences. I have seen the bees come out of winter BOOMING after being treated with Fumagilin, so I personally know it works. If you choose not to use it, then thats great, I think the package industry will be happy to replace your bees.
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Update*
After taking my bees and having them looked at under a microscope they told me my bees do not have nosema... They were particularly shocked and said my nosema spore count was the lowest they've seen... less than a normal "healthy" sample. He even took another slide of my sample and still confirmed the count was extremely low... he let me get in and showed me what the spores look like under the microscope, it was neat and I learned a bunch :yes:
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Did they give you any idea of what they might have?
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I'm waiting to talk to Rob, but they suggested it could just be a bad case of dysentary.
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After taking my bees and having them looked at under a microscope they told me my bees do not have nosema... They were particularly shocked and said my nosema spore count was the lowest they've seen... less than a normal "healthy" sample. He even took another slide of my sample and still confirmed the count was extremely low... he let me get in and showed me what the spores look like under the microscope, it was neat and I learned a bunch
Which is exactly why I don't treat without a diagnosis. I don't think a couple hundred $$$ microscope is beyond the scope of a serious beekeeper.
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From your other thread, what interested me the most is how they went poop crazy when you opened your hive, almost as if they were not able to leave to release themselves. Good luck!
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One other thing, since it appears that they don't have nosema, the act of opening up the hive may have actually saved your bees. What kind of bottom boards do you have?
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camero7~
"Which is exactly why I don't treat without a diagnosis. I don't think a couple hundred $$$ microscope is beyond the scope of a serious beekeeper."
camero, i have a question, are you saying we are not serious beekeepers unless we own a microscope to detect nosema?
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What should I do, camero? I own a microscope, but don't know how to use it and wouldn't know nosema from smallpox. Am I a serious beekeeper?
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If you're concerned your bees have nosema and you treat without verification makes no sense to me. Read Randy Oliver's site to learn how to use the scope, that's how I learned. Not that difficult. Or send some bees to Beltsville, they will diagnose nosema for you at no cost. I send some there to verify my own findings. So far I'm fairly accurate. I don't do complete spore counts, just a field of vision in the scope view. It will tell you a lot. Interestingly I have very low nosema counts and have never treated.
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Just teasing you. I don't treat. People pay me to take their bees. ""Out of walls and ceilings"" I keep them on a live and let die program.
I do agree with you on the "test before treating" for any and all things.
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for those that think they don't have fumigillin in their honey, just saying. If this got out to the general public what do you think it would do to honey sales?
Although the US Federal Drug Administration disallows fumagillin usage during the foraging season, marketable honey in U.S. was found to contain 60 ng/g of fumagillin residue [10], approximately 0.0024× the recommended treatment concentration. We calculated that fumagillin degradation in the field should be approximately −log10/month based on residues in the U.S. and field results from Spain.
http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185
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wondering what became of all that treated syrup, made us decide that they probably moved what was left into the supers as well. How would you know what frames contained fumagilin-B.
My next thought was, there is just to much negative talk about this stuff in Europe, and now in the US also. Known Birth Defects in mammals, sounds scary enough for me.
We made the choice to stop using it and just take our chances with our bees.
The next year, I waited for the other shoe to drop!
It never came. I'm still waiting.....
I was shocked that the incidence of Nosema actually went away. How could that have happened?
It's my feeling that keeping well fed bees and low Varroa counts, is the key for a healthy hive that can better handle infections thrown at them. JMO
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Cam, Randy Oliver has done an excellent job of explaining his Nosema testing methods.
I think it is a good read for one and all to spend a little time reviewing his research on Nosema.
His explanation of microscope usage is so simple, even I can master Nosema spore testing.
For those of you that do have a microscope, do you prefer a rechargeable LED, or a hard wired power unit with a chord?
I sure would like a new microscope, mine is a POS that I purchased at the local WMU college used for $100.00
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Randy is how I learned and if I can do it anyone can!
I bought the same one that Randy recommended on his web site. Works for me. I take it with me to the yards in the fall and test on my truck hood.
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So, you have the rechargeable unit. How long does a charge last?
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I am looking for a microscope.. I see them occasionally from schools etc, and I will eventually have one.. BUT...
Having one means NOTHING.. i would STILL put Fumagilin on that hive AS FAST AS i COULD..
WHY?
Because it does not harm the bees!
When I see definitive proof it DOES harm the bees. i will rethink my methods, AND, I will still use it, only i will use it a little more judiciously..
I dont have problems with getting it, or syrup into my honey, because I am a serious beekeeper that pays attention to where the syrup is and goes. It seems a little strange there is such a fixation about something that is so easy to deal with., and about the use of a product that has been used on bees for quite a long time, AND has been shown to work very well...
As always... I am open to a better way. I would LOVE to have a better way!! The one thing I have HATED from my days arguing with the town council, is listening to people throw a fit about something we have, or were doing, WITHOUT offering a "viable" alternative. Give me another product that works as well and I will use it. Until then.. I will continue with Fumagilin B.. Until I see it "harm" my bees, I consider it another RED FOOD COLORING dilema.. Red food coloring causes cancer!! Yes, if you eat MORE than 5 people will in their entire lifetime..
I also consider that using Fumagilin is like using Coumaphos, or Oxalic Acid, etc, etc... If you have no common sense then you probably shouldnt use any of it, because it will ALL hurt you.
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On a related topic: I have a bottle of fumagilin sitting in my cupboard. I meant to treat preventatively in the fall, but did not get around to it. Is there much benefit to feeding them some when the weather warms up? I've never actually had problems with nosema, but my understanding is that it's present in pretty much all hives and is a stressor on the bees with our very long winters.
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pete, when did you buy it? might want to check the expiration date on it. any fumagillin i have purchased in the past goes in the freezer. i can't honestly answer your question. it used to be a recommendation to treat in spring months added to fall treatments. my local bee supplier sent out an email sometime ago advising beeks to stop using it in spring months, i didn't ask why. i didn't ask because by then i had stopped using it. i haven't used it probably in about 5 years or more.
camero i am a serious beekeeper, i don't own a microscope, but i will agree with this statement, and i will clarify as to why:
"for those that think they don't have fumigillin in their honey, just saying. If this got out to the general public what do you think it would do to honey sales?"
this is one reason why i do not believe in the practice of cycling brood frames up to be used in honey supers in interchangeable frames and equipment, but that's just me. i have already said it, others have different practices.
with that said would i use it? i might, but by the time one realizes they may have a nosema problem, it might be too late to treat. i don't know, but it's my guess.
i would also like to make a comment, when i read Large Words, i read 'yelliing'. just my perception. let's not 'yell' at each other. i think we can make a point without doing so. we all have different ways, methods and different beliefs. let's remember that and respect that. i am not saying that's how you meant it scott, i know you were probably expressing your frustration/opinion on the subject.
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So, what happened to poor Lindsay? I'll bet she quit reading this thread for sure! :o
I don't feel like we were much help to her.
Maybe, Robo got her on the right track though.
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Reply in anything in everything. Big words.
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"So, what happened to poor Lindsay? I'll bet she quit reading this thread for sure!"
i hope not tefer! hey lindsay!!!
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Hey guys! I did fall of for a bit, I appologize I haven't given an update. Im struggling to keep my bees alive, Im down to 2 hives now :'( I don;t know what is going on with them, the nosema came back negative but they have a bad case of dysentary. I've heard that unheated sugar could do this to them ( again I heard this) and that the heating process will invert the makeup of the sugar making it easier to digest for the bees. Im thinking about taking out the granulated sugar and giving them some fondant or candy board for food.
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dang,, thats not good.. Not sure what to tell you to try.. I have fed sugar since the mid 1970's and have never heard that it caused problems?
I hope no one tells my bees!
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LazyBkpr well that is good news. Maybe it doesn't cause problems, I just heard it from another beek. I don't know why they have dysentary like this, they have had days of cleansing flights. Im trying to stay positive and hope that I have at least one hive to start spring with. I just got a job at the bee supply store in our area, Im considering working for a few packages... At least I have a lot of drawn out frames this year to give bees ( the clean ones anyways)
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Indeed.. I am hoping you dont lose any more at all.
I thought I was going to lose a couple packages to Nosema, or dysentery.. Whatever it is thats causing them to poo all over the inside of the hive.. One of the two managed to pull through, and they are doing well at this point. The inside of the hive is a bit of a mess, but they are alive.. and they pulled through on sugar cakes. Most of their reserves were gone.
Unfortunately, I can only give advice on my own bees and experiences, those experiences may not relate to your area at all..
1. Packages dont do well here.
In total, I have bought 18 packages over the years. The number of them that survived the first winter is 4. The number that survived the second winter is 0, but I have two daughter queens from packages that are alive at this point, MAYBE they will survive next winter, and maybe I will replace the queens before then to remove the worry/loss.
2. Fumagillin B has reduced my winter loss to Nosema/Dysentery from about 12% to less than 1%
Is it the Fumagillin that has produced these results? I do not know, I lost a lot of hives. I started using the Fumagillin, and those losses ended, so I keep using it.
Beekeepers who have fed fumagillin to field colonies years ago had noted significant differences in colony build up. In fact, many of them stopped using fumagillin. The colonies built up too quickly and swarm control became nearly impossible.
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/147621.pdf
3. Upper ventilation.
Apparently we NEED it here, Lost two hives, nearly lost 3 others.
4. Sugar;
it has been fed to the bees for a very long time. If it was harmful, i doubt that it would have been used for very long.
Candy or bakers fondant was first used to feed bees in the 18thcentury because it was the purest form of sugar then available.
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadNews.cfm?id=121
Honey actually contains the same basic sugar units as table sugar. Both contain glucose and fructose. Granulated table sugar, or sucrose, has glucose and fructose hooked together, whereas in honey, fructose and glucose remain in individual units.
(Wiki)
Invert sugar has the glucose and fructose broken down, and is supposedly easier for the bees to convert. Having never had any problems I dont worry about that.
We had a terrible fall flow last year, and as most know, my bees subsisted almost entirely on sugar through the winter. The losses i had, were starvation/cold 1 Nosema like symtoms, and 2 were moisture related. Those lost were 90% package bees in nucs and hives. 9% purchased nuc hives. 1% my fault.
I have 25 hives and 4 nucs flying at this point, all living on sugar cakes, but its not yet mid March.
I think if i was in your shoes, I would be bugging the bejeesus out of Rob. (Maybe he is susceptible to Bribery? Cookies? Beverages? Money?) ;D
He is local, and can probably give you the best advice of anyone.
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Thanks for your input. If I go the package bee route, I plan to replace those queens using the OTS method. I don't really want to be spending $220++ a piece for nucs when I could get a couple packages, throw them onto already drawn out comb and requeen them. Also I will be putting out swarm traps early in hopes of replacing some of my loss that way. I don't know that much about Fumagillin but I need to research more about it. I just assumed it is only used for the treatment of nosema. I bug the bejesus out of Rob all the time and we work together a lot , he has been as helpful as he can be. He is too kind to accept bribery anyhow. Im kind of in a "sit and wait" situation.
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Glad to see you checking back in Lindsay.
I've also heard that "Mountain Camp" method of feeding could cause dysentary.
No one seems to have any proof to back up their claims though.
Make yourself some Robo candy to help them until the snow melts.
When we bought pkg's, we always requeened them with local stock.
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Lindsay,
I fed my bees this winter with the Mountain Camp method - just granulated sugar on top of a sheet of newspaper with a few holes punched in it. I treated my bees with Fumigillin in the fall. One hive which had Nosema last spring (and got treated in the fall) had a little bit of diarrhea/dysentery -in other words - poop trails on the front of the hive. Not bad - just some. So it raises the question of of whether it's the Mountain Camp method or whether there were some Nosema spores there left over that just start manifesting themselves when the weather warms up enough for them to get out the front door and then poop. My bees liked the raw sugar - I feel like it helped them make it through the winter because they were a little light in the fall. I would use this method again for myself.
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remember that nosema ceranae [accepted as the most common variety these days] doesn't generally manifest itself as dysentery.