Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: mamapoppybee on December 27, 2013, 11:05:21 am

Title: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: mamapoppybee on December 27, 2013, 11:05:21 am
Do the bees prefer wooden to plastic frames. From your expeirenc what is the best frame to work with?
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: robo on December 27, 2013, 11:16:11 am
I don't know about the bees, but I hate plastic frames. They are too flexible for my liking and grippers don't hold them well.   I would suggest sticking with wooden frames.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: riverbee on December 27, 2013, 11:22:39 am
what robo said, the bees don't have a preference, it's the keeper's preference. like robo, i do not like plastic frames, they are too flexible for me as well.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: iddee on December 27, 2013, 11:26:58 am
I disagree. The bees do not like plastic and only use it when they have to. Put 5 of each in a hive and see what order they draw them.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: robo on December 27, 2013, 11:33:56 am
I disagree. The bees do not like plastic and only use it when they have to. Put 5 of each in a hive and see what order they draw them.

Frames or foundation?
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: iddee on December 27, 2013, 11:39:57 am
I don't know of anyone using plastic frames with wax foundation, so I didn't consider that. I only considered wood and wax, wood and plastic, and plastic and plastic.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: riverbee on December 27, 2013, 11:41:47 am
iddee, i thought she meant plastic frames, not foundation....
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: iddee on December 27, 2013, 11:47:22 am
Like my first sentence says, I have never seen wax foundation used in plastic frames, so I just took it for granted she was talking about plastic foundation in plastic frames, or either foundation in wood frames.

Also, another thought, SHB love plastic frames. It gives them many little crannies to hide in.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: mamapoppybee on December 27, 2013, 11:48:04 am
information on both types would be good for those of us just jumping in
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Slowmodem on December 27, 2013, 11:49:39 am
At our last bee meeting, there was a demonstration on a gizmo that you can use to assemble 10 wooden frames at a time.  After seeing all the hammering, gluing, nailing, etc.  I'll probably never use a wooden frame if I can help it.

I use all plastic.  If that's all they have, and if they're well fed, they seem to do all right.  Just take them out of the box and put them in the hive.  Easy peasy.

But I'm just a few years into this, so weigh this opinion appropriately.  :)
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: G3farms on December 27, 2013, 11:55:49 am
I am a wood frame and wax foundation fella myself.

If you have small hive beetles (SHB) then they will love you for the plastic frames with all of the nooks and crannies to hide in.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: robo on December 27, 2013, 11:57:58 am
I don't know of anyone using plastic frames with wax foundation, so I didn't consider that. I only considered wood and wax, wood and plastic, and plastic and plastic.

I do know folks that have cut the centers out of their plastic frames to make them foundationless.

I guess the only way to tell their preference for "frame type"  would be to do 5 plastic frames and 5 wood frames with plastic foundation.    Personally I don't care what the bees preference is, because I despise plastic frames so much I would not use them even if it was the bee's preference.    Iddee.  I assume you don't use frame grips?

My preference is wooden frames with black rite-cell.   If wax foundation wasn't so fragile,  that would probably be my preference, but I have had great results with the rite-cell.

I do have a lot of experience with Honey Super Cell and can tell you queens hate it when it is new and refuse to lay in it.   The only consistent way I have found to get past this is to let them store honey in the new frames first.  Once they are used, the queen will lay in them fine and make beautiful brood patterns.

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_0514.JPG&hash=ad0864f8bdd76febf6bdaff62f28cff1f01a268c)
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: iddee on December 27, 2013, 12:04:33 pm
I don't use frame grips, and I don't use plastic.

I use strictly wood frames and wired wax, then cross wire the wax. Preferably Walter T. Kelley wax in slotted bottom frames. Their wax is just a bit longer then others in the deeps.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: blueblood on December 27, 2013, 12:36:59 pm
I know we talked in chat a little but again, I had absolutely no problems with the plastic Rite Cell foundations which are in wooden frames all sold through Mannlake.  I preferred wax foundation and wood frames but I refuse to pay the excessive amount of shipping from Kelly where I originally bought all of my favorite frames and foundations (N style).  So, Mannlake won my business with their generous free shipping for $100 or more, every day of the year.  The trade off was trying Rite Cell, which has proven to work well.  Here is a pic of a fresh Rite Cell medium in wooden frame:

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2F436xjgg9p%2Fmms_picture_63.jpg&hash=383a7513dafa5130ef87e8d98e2bcc0b3b9e4cbf) (http://postimg.cc/image/436xjgg9p/)
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Zookeep on December 27, 2013, 08:45:28 pm
plastic frames for me is a death sentence here cause of hive beatels ,too many nooks in the frame, I like wood frames and ritecell from mann lakes also, they get all my business.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 27, 2013, 11:17:00 pm

   I have quite a few PF 120's from Mann Lake that are completely plastic / small cell.   My use for them is dividing up the box when I put NEW bees in NEW frames.. I use medium foundation-less  the plastic breaks up the big open space and helps get the girls on track to making good straight combs..
   3 PF120's and 7 empty frames..  98% of the time they go straight for the foundation-less frames.. it works good for me, because once they are drawing the empty frames well, I can pop the plastic out and drop in another empty.. set the plastic aside for the next new start. I've left them in too long and had the bees start on them after they got the other combs mostly done, so I know they will draw them if they have no other choice.  It is rather obvious which they prefer  ;D
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Jen on December 28, 2013, 01:44:43 am
I prefer wood frames and wax foundation. How many plastic logs and trees do you see out there with hives in them. I know I know that sounds dumb.... However, I like to keep things as natural as possible.

That said, I myself have plastic frames of which I'm not happy with at all. However, I didn't know at the time if I would like them or not. And, I was in a hurry cause my one and only hive was swarming like crazy and I had to transfer all my bees from my little patio hive to the standard size hive. Now, my hive is full and I don't know how to transfer out the plastic frames to wood and wax.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Zookeep on December 28, 2013, 07:06:39 am
jaybird, I live in a place where you dont see 200 year old trees with giant hollows in them, bees will live anyplace and in anything where there is space, I have even found them building a new home on the underside of a plastic garbage can lid just cause the lid was not put on tight, I think it was Iddee that said during a flow you can get the girls to pull comb on anything even cardboard, alot of my hives have natural comb in the brood chambers but I will never use anything but ritecell for foundation in the honey supers, never get a blow out with that foundation during spinning
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: robo on December 28, 2013, 07:50:08 am
Now, my hive is full and I don't know how to transfer out the plastic frames to wood and wax.

You can do it incrementally.   Since the outside frames most likely have no  brood in them, the next time you inspect remove the two outside frames and push the remaining plastic frames out toward the side leaving a open space in the middle.   Put 2 wooden frames with wax foundation in the void.    If any brood is pushed to the outside, once it hatches the queen will not lay more there.   Repeat this every time you inspect until all the plastic frames are gone.   

Save the plastic frames and use in swarm traps.  There is no better swarm trap lure than old comb.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: robo on December 28, 2013, 07:58:10 am
bees will live anyplace and in anything where there is space

You mean like this  ;)


(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beesource.com%2Ffiles%2Fgastankhive2-300x249.jpg&hash=8f186953d6417fbc39ac8bf7ddb46284f674baaf)(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beesource.com%2Ffiles%2Fgastankhive3.jpg&hash=9818bf7e87860747e5c052624301f94edc796905) (http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/feral-bee-hives/feral-gas-tank-hive-caldwell/)
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Perry on December 28, 2013, 08:17:52 am
Wooden frames and wax coated plastic foundation. Black for the brood chamber, white for the honey supers. I don't like plastic frames simply because there is too much flex in them when doing inspections. No SHB here (yet) so that isn't an issue.
I understand that the bees will draw out wax foundation as a preference, but will draw out almost anything during a flow, and that works best for me.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Jacobs on December 28, 2013, 08:49:49 am
I mostly use unwaxed plastic foundation in wooden frames.  I collect and save my wax and paint it on the frames much thicker than the commercial coating.  My wax contains only the chemicals and contaminants my bees bring home rather than the mix present in all commercially produced wax.  I can't say what the plastic itself puts out.  I am at a point where I am going to be taking some of my older comb out of use.  With the plastic foundation, I can scrape the old comb off, re-coat the plastic foundation, and give it back to the bees to draw out again. 

I have just purchased some wired wax foundation to get drawn out.  I plan to use it on nucs where I am trying to get queen cells made to put into other hives and raise some queens.  While I like my plastic foundation, especially for extracting honey without having to wire frames, I do not like the idea of having to use tin snips to cut queen cells from my plastic foundation for transplant.

Most of the plastic foundation I have is not black, but the black does make spotting eggs easier.

In my long winded way, I guess I am saying think about what you want to start with and why.  As the years go by, thanks to L. L. Langstroth and commercial standardization of frame sizes, you can buy and use other types of frames or foundation for specific purposes.  I've never had a hive explode because I mixed plastic foundation with wax foundation, and the bees have never filed a grievance. 

Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 28, 2013, 09:05:33 am
and that works best for me.

   There is the key right there!!
   There isnt a lot natural about (to steel a quote from Mrs. River) Keeping wild things in a box..    Keeping bees is like being married..   there ARE some things your just going to have to compromise about. Some things will make the partner content, while other things will get you STUNG..   I have wood/plastic, wood/empty and  plastic/plastic and the bees use it all..
    ALSO like being married...  IF, you limit their choice they use what they are given..  UNLIKE being married you dont hear about it from the bees for the rest of your natural life!
   I have to say...  I use foundation-less because the QUEEN doesnt want to spend $2000.00 when I need a thousand frames..  So I make them myself, and have in the neighborhood of $200.00 invested instead.  I have a few more issues to deal with..  crooked comb, wide comb, soft wax, extractor blowouts..  ETC..   Most of it is just a matter of adapting my method, and worth the compromise to keep the marriage... errr..  BEES happy.   In the end.. it amazes me what I do to keep a little queen happy!!!

   AWESOME gas tank Hive Robo!!!!!
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: mamapoppybee on December 28, 2013, 11:20:18 am
love the gas tank hive just gose to show they will home about near anything. Thankyou for all the advice with this. gave me great info on the direction i should go. <3
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: blueblood on December 28, 2013, 11:31:46 am
Ha! That gas tank of bees and comb is great!
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Slowmodem on December 28, 2013, 12:03:59 pm
Me too!   ;D
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: brooksbeefarm on December 28, 2013, 01:12:05 pm
I enjoy working in the shop with the wood stove going, the smell of the wood and wax foundation, and knowing that the bees will draw out the whole frame of wax foundation. I've tried the plastic foundation and if a heavy flow is on they will draw whole frames out, but when the flow starts getting weaker they will draw half frames and draw 3 or 4 strips from top to bottom of the frames (i call them snakes). The plastic foundation is either built into the plastic frame or snapped into a wood frame so it takes less work. To me plastic stinks, it has to hold cold temp. and hot temp. longer than wax,makes it hard to remove queen cells from, and of course comb honey from it is out of the question. I have wood frames that i have replaced wax foundation in for over thirty years and only cross wired them once and the bees love them because of the smell of the old wax and propolis and will go to work on them quicker. I also think (just my idea) that by my handling of the frames it leaves my sent on them and when work the hives they think i'm one of them.LOL. I'm thinking the bees went to the gas tank because someone put plastic in their hive. Jack
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: G3farms on December 28, 2013, 03:51:08 pm
I'm thinking the bees went to the gas tank because someone put plastic in their hive. Jack

HAHA that is a good one Jack!!

Gas tank bees are very nice. Bees don't care as long as they are out of the weather and have enough room to expand (well for the most part anyway).
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Perry on December 28, 2013, 03:53:38 pm
Jack Jack Jack
Now you're telling us that the bees like your smell?  :o
I have to say I really missed "debating" with you on the pros and cons about plastic verses that "other" stuff, you and I both being such open-minded types and all.
Maybe we could duel it out somewhere, the squirt could be judge!  ;)
And then, after I show you how to pop the plastic foundation into all your frames, we'll sit down an have a beer or two.
Your friend
Perry
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: brooksbeefarm on December 28, 2013, 04:22:44 pm
Perry,Perry,Perry, The Squirt for the judge? you must think i came to town on a load of pumpkins. After the way i've picked on her and knowing that she uses plastic foundation her self, i got a good idea how i'd come out. Now if you want to be fair, we'll let iddee and G3 be the judges. Your buddy, Jack
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Jen on December 28, 2013, 04:36:51 pm
Okay, I stand corrected, respectully. I have a small operation of bees with one hive two deeps tall, and will be splitting this spring into two separate hives. I seriously doubt I'll have more hives than that. So I can afford purchasing new wood frames and wax foundation when I need them. If I was a full on apiary with 600 hives, that might be a different story.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: G3farms on December 28, 2013, 04:43:36 pm
fellas, fellas, fellas............we all know that plastic frames, plastic foundation, plastic hive boxes will only lead to plastic bees!

Jack I think I would be a fair judge too ::) ::)

Jaybird, with one hive you have an apiary! We all started some where and some are big contributors to the bee world and don't even own a single hive. Heck the president of our club just got back into bees last year.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Zookeep on December 28, 2013, 05:12:56 pm
Jaybird I started with 1 hive 2 years ago and now am at 53 with the swarm I caught 2 days ago (saw the queen today, almost totally black) and not gonna stop growing, I want 200 by this time next year
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: Jen on December 28, 2013, 06:32:40 pm
eh hem, I'm not a fella, I'm a filly ~ fyi ;)

You Go Zoo!

And, I have my one hive in my backyard within the city limits. Not allowed. Shhhhh. One of the reasons I only need a couple of hives.
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: riverbee on December 28, 2013, 07:20:23 pm
well the SQUIRT went to waxed pierco foundation (got smart, lol) a long time ago and have always used wood frames. it works for me......lol, my bees don't care, so you fellers are just stuck in beekeepin history or your bees are just plain retarded and ps jack you don't even know what a yellow jacket is LOL!!!........ :)

Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 28, 2013, 07:42:37 pm
you fellers are just stuck in beekeepin history or your bees are just plain retarded and ps jack you don't even know what a yellow jacket is LOL!!!........ :)

    /me nods head, puts hands on hips..    "YEAH! So there!!!"     

   (Hides behind Squirt)
Title: Re: do the bees have a frame prefernce?
Post by: riverbee on December 28, 2013, 08:05:38 pm
lol lazy!
and jack don't forget.... now you have everyone on this forum calling me squirt....lol  ;D