Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on March 05, 2015, 12:46:51 am
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About 10ish days ago the weather was in the 60's, so I had time to inspect all three hives. Hive one and two went well, bees were docile. Hive three? another story. I was suited up for all three inspects. I did see the queen. Hive three, I had bees all over my sleeves and gloves and took some stings to my jeans. I reported it to the forum, and was suggested to wait a while. I did.
While I'm waiting, three times I've been to the hives, experimenting. I stand next to mother hive to where my bod is touching it, and I lean down and watch the bees for about 30 seconds. Nothing, bees happy and busy. I go to hive 2, sit down right next to it, lean and watch bees for awhile. Nothing, bees happy and busy. I go to hive 3, sit down next to it, lean in, and within 10 seconds I get a sting.
Husband and son say the bees come right in to their face and buzzing.
A week ago I was visiting with my elderly neighbor, right away I felt a lone bee lift off of my shoulder, and she lit and nailed my neighbor right on the nose.
I'll be adding the additional hive body to #3 maybe tomorrow. And, I may knock out the bottom deep. 10 days ago, it only
had pollen and a tad of nectar in it.
We are ramped up full swing here, is it a good time to requeen?
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Definitely a good time. Check for brood. It sounds like there may not be queen pheremone in the hive, even if there is a queen.
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Thanks Iddee! Calling Koehnan's today!
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Last year in late spring I ordered three queens for three hives. Introduced them according to instructions. Two were excepted one was found dead. So I let the hive make a new queen and all worked out well.
This year, In case the newly installed queen is killed, I don't know if there is enough drones to mate with a queen the bees would make.
I'm was going to order a queen today for my hot hive... then I thought maybe I should order two just in case the first one isn't excepted. So is this the time when I would make a nuc for the extra queen if I don't need the extra queen after all?
I guess my question is: How do I know if I have enough drones? and what do I do with the extra queen just in case she's not needed?
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You could always kill the queen in the hot hive, then introduce a frame or two of eggs and larvae from the mother hive and let them make their own. But then, you have to wait for the whole mating flight and possibility of it not working. If you want to make sure you get a better amount of honey this year over last, requeen.
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Hi tbone :) Yah, see that is one of my questions, I'm not sure I have enough mature drones for a mating season this early. So if I buy two mated queens then I won't have to wait for the whole mating/make a new queen thing. What do I do with the left over new queen if the introduced queen is excepted?
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I posted earlier about my hot hive and plans to requeen. I got great advice from this forum about dividing and conquering. Also check out what Michael Bush has to say about it. He has a great article on Requeening a Hot Hive. It was really helpful.
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Googled this article Hampton, is this the one you mean? Getting a cup of coffee and will read, Thanks
UPFATE JUST 10 MINUTES LATER.
Michael Bush on requeening hot hives: "First, Be prepared to be stung. Be prepared to walk away for a while. Be prepared to run away for a while. I find running through some brush is a good way to get rid of clinging and following bees.
UPDATE ONE HOUR LATER. I put a net over my head and sat with the hot hive one more time, they are still a little insistent with me but no stings. I've decided to do an inspection before I buy queens. I don't hear a roar in the hive. But It's been almost 2 weeks and anything could have changed in the hive in that time. I'll look for supercedure or swarming cells. If I find those why bother requeening at this moment. It will also give me a look see as to anything going on in the bottom deep of which two weeks ago was nothing but stored pollen.
Catch up with ya later
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Just finished hot hive #3 inspection. I'm encouraged :) The bees were not as aggressive as two weeks ago but still insistant. I stayed steady at the helm, but walked away a couple of times to let them settle down. Spotted the queen. No queen cells of any kind ;D By the time I got to the bottom deep, I took some stings, but that's okay my knees have been a little cranky ;)
I was prepared to kick the deep out and lower the two meds, and then add an empty med on top for queen expansion. But Guess What? the middle three deep frames have capped brood and larvae ;D I'm seeing a picture here... two weeks ago the deep was empty except for pollen. I'll bet because the hive was out of room for the queen to lay, she led them, or they led her down stairs to get busy, maybe reluctantly but they at least choose that alternative to swarming.
So, now this hive is a deep with a little brood and larvae and nectar and pollen stored. Then two meds of plenty of capped brood and honey. Then I went a head and put on an empty med with a couple pulled frames in it to get them started, so now they can go up or down. thinking that the top empty med will turn into a super ;D
With all the added room, I'll see if this hive settles down, then I won't have to buy a queen. I think it's a good plan ;D
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Very good plan.
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Thanks Mr. Wizard ;)
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That sounds like a pro plan if I ever heard one!
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:) Thanks Scott ~ it's getting easier to read the hives, a nice feeling to be sure ;)
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If you have two queens, split a hive and put a queen in each one. If one of the queens don't make it, recombine with newpaper. If they both make it, you have two hives! Easy peasy.
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Spring is definitely the time of year when the bees are crankiest. All those old winter bees have not been bothered for a few months and they don't like it. When all the winter bees have died off things get better.
As for your 2 queen question: you don't really need a very strong Nuc to bank a queen. Just a frame of brood and a couple of frames of bees. If it turns out you don't need the queen then you can sell her with a Nuc, or re-queen one of your other hives and sell the 1 year old proven queen with a Nuc. I re-queen all of my hives every year and it has proven an excellent form of swarm prevention for me.
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Pete- "I re-queen all of my hives every year and it has proven an excellent form of swarm prevention for me.
Each to our own :) But I just can't do that if I have a good laying queen. It feels like to me, Henry the XVI, the guillotine, and Marie Antoinette just cause she couldn't produce a boy.
And this is the second year for my three queens and they are laying better than ever.
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Requeening every year is a waste of good Queens imo, just split when they start making queen cells and the queen puts an egg in it, then it's time. Old queen in new hive, she thinks she swarmed and won't do it again old hive has no queen and half the bees, thinks it swarmed won't do it again. At the end of winter join both together and voila
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My one year old queens are not wasted. I sell them with my Nucs. That way the customers get a proven queen that's brought a hive through the winter in good shape. If you wait until you have queen cells present to split your hive, you will often end up with one or more cast swarms. This is because the bees have made up their mind to swarm and the first queen to hatch will sometimes leave with 1/2 the bees. Much better to split before they feel crowned enough to want to swarm.
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Hiya Vosse :) Nice to hear from ya
This is my year to learn nucs and splits. Right now all's I know is, is that there are no swarm or supercedure cells in my three hives. Woooooot!
Next step, Oxalic treatment this coming week.
Pete- " If you wait until you have queen cells present to split your hive, you will often end up with one or more cast swarms.
Awwe Man! That what happened to me last year, they casted and casted and casted me to exhuastion!
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Still a hot hive! went out into my back yard to do some pruning. Not even near the hives and they are after me, got stung twice and they stung my dog :o At this rate I don't think I'm going to wait 2 weeks to requeen...
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vosse~
"Requeening every year is a waste of good Queens imo, just split when they start making queen cells and the queen puts an egg in it, then it's time. Old queen in new give, she thinks she swarmed and won't do it again old hive has no queen and half the bees, thinks it swarmed won't do it again. At the end of winter join both together and voila"
pete~
" If you wait until you have queen cells present to split your hive, you will often end up with one or more cast swarms."
like vosse i don't requeen every year, and agree a waste of a good queen.
pete, not always true, this takes timing.
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The hot hive bees are after us, can't go in the backyard, can't go in the front yard. I was hoping that adding the new medium might quiet them down. NOT! But it's only been 3 days.
Tell me, if I requeen this week, will the bees calm down because there is a new queen, or do we have to wait until she produces the gentler bees?
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A hot hive is no fun at all. :o
Check out this video to get idea of what you can expect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmmtjFgdqz8
Richard
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It depends on why the bees are angry.. if its because of the queen, IE lack of pheromone, or poor mating etc a new queen will make a difference in less than a week. If its because that queen IS hot, it will be at minimum 21 days, plus how ever many days it takes the queen to be released, and then check out her new digs and start laying.. so maybe four to five weeks before the new bees are emerging, and six to seven weeks before the last of the old queens brood is starting to die off.
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WhhhhooooEEEee Rrog! That is a nasty mean hive! Mine aren't anywhere near that, but they are stinging me, the neighor, my dog. But mostly one or two bees buzzing assertively within 1 minute of entering the backyard. I live in a close knit neighborhood, can't have that.
Real Good Video as well! My bee veil is off to you for taking the time to video that. That was you wasn't it? :D
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Nope....glad to say, not me. Thank goodness!
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Hahahha, thanks for clarifying that! Who ever it was, my veil is still off ;D
Scott, thanks for explaining that, it freshened up what was lingering in my mind from last spring and introducing new queens. Either way, if queen has low pheromones or she hot, I see the need to requeen. Calling to tomorrow :)
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Jen, if you get a chance to work with a Carnica queen, grab her with both hands! This honeybee race is among the most gentle and will hardly ever sting unless you flip their hive upside down and start to yell at em lol. I have both my hives with a queen of this race and it's the best thing I ever did after I started with normal dutch black bees.
"It has a panopoly of characteristics that are increasingly important to beekeepers, including gentleness, less-than-average propolis collection, and little inclination to rob, the real bugaboo of its cousin,
Apis mellifera ligustica, the Italian honey bee. It is known as the “spring” bee for it builds population rapidly early in the activeseason. More importantly it closes down its brood rearing quickly when environmental conditions deteriorate, resulting in less food consumption and a potentially increased winter survival."
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Hey Vosse, would this be the queen that produces the very light carmel colored bees, they even have lighter eyes. If so, these are the queens I introduced last spring, and it was heaven, soo gentle. Thanks for the tip! :)
Just came back to my desk with the reciept of last years purchased queens. It says Italian queens.
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No the carnica bees are more darker. The Italian ones have more orange but are much more eager to rob their neighbours as where carnica almost love theirs. Just don't open up a super too long when there's not much to be found elsewhere, no matter what race of bees you have its a dinner bell for all :)
I really love the orange bees they're beautiful, we call them buckfast (do you in the states as well?) But the carnicas are from the balkans, Slovenia mainly and have a longer tongue so they can reach the nectar in deeper flowers as where other bee races cannot, Carnica is also the most varroa resistant promising race they've found thus far, so the choice over buckfast (hard workers, make big hives, swarms and can make some serious amount of honey) was still easy, I keep bees for the bees, not for profit or honey :)
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"I keep bees for the bees, not for profit or honey"
Me too Vosse! I'll look for these bees you talk of. Right now I'm finding that the queen breeders are backed up into May. I may just have to move this hive off of the property or awhile, that would make me sad :sad: But it's better than my neighbors getting stung everyday. So far I'm getting stung everyday even if I'm on the other side of the yard ~ Thanks!
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Jen, those bees came from one mother, but many fathers. Kill her and let them raise one. The new bees will have different genes from their fathers. Many, and I'd say most, times the new bees from the daughter will be much gentler.
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Buckfast bees in USA tend to be darker then italians. After first supersede can be very nasty.
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Hi Iddee- "Jen, those bees came from one mother,
I'm going to ask a couple questions to get the science down
1. This hive is a combine from last fall, that would have been two mothers?
2. Are these bees still my winter bees? probably not?
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No, those bees are gone. These are bees from the queen currently in the hive.
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Mkay, that would make sense then, Thanks Scott
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I'm going to make some calls today to see if I can find a queen. If I can't this time of year, I'll prob have to send my queen to the gallows and let them make their own. It's only mid March so they should be up and running by mid April. That would give ample time to honey up I think :)
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I would pull a NUC. Make sure to leave eggs. Then when the new queen is laying, you can kill and combine, or sell the nuc.
Give you practice in making a split.
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Hmm, I'm out the door, I'll get back with ya on that :)
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I would pull a NUC. Make sure to leave eggs. Then when the new queen is laying, you can kill and combine, or sell the nuc.
Give you practice in making a split.
I like the way you think. Make a new queen an keep production going
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Iddee, prepare for some questions I haven't done nucs or divides yet.
1st question: I remember you saying some time back that a nuc or divide can be made out of a deep or medium?
Reason is, in the hot hive queen could be in a medium or a deep when I pull her out.
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Find a frame of open brood, a frame of capped brood, a frame of pollen and honey, or one of each.
3 or 4 frames. Place in nuc. Find queen and shake her and bees into the nuc. Replace frame back where it was. Add enough empty frames to fill box. If you have brood in both size boxes, doesn't matter which size you use.
You can place the nuc 5 feet away, or 5 mile away. Doesn't matter. The foragers will return home and the house bees will stay.
Going to bee meeting. Be back around 7:30 PM Pacific time.
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Holy Schmoly Guacamole! Just make a quick two week check in the hot hive to see if the new med is filling out. They have most all the frames pulled and filling with nectar. Gonna be pulling a nuc out today or tomorrow. I sure hope this works, MAN! these girls are hotter than a two dollar pistol !!!!
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Holy Schmoly Guacamole!
:hijack:
Believe it or not, there actually is such a thing:
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTTpz5SpWgTLUzcFpgwXkCgglf0_as3YUYFie-3OvkoLmcpvsmCuw&hash=565609ffdc299f689b45f006f1e0361a5e22e1be)
Back now to your topic! ;D
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I would love to try some of that! :D Guess I have to add my own Schmoly
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The hive on the far left is the hive I thought was hot, I still think it is. Two day's ago I was checking the top med of mother hive, the one to the far right, to see how much they have pulled, and the bees were all over me, I'm sure I would have gotten stung if I hadn't suited up.
Hubby and I have been devising a plan, thought I would run it by you guys first.
My robbing screens can be turned around and attached to the hive so you can move the hive. It locks the bees in but they still get all the air circulation. What if: for one day, we put robbing screens on two of the hives, go out into the yard and putz around, mow the lawn, see if we get any aggressive bees. Then the next day switch the robbing screens to the other two hives, see if we get any aggression. Then, the third day, do the last two hives, see if we get any aggression. It would help us determine which hive is the stinging hive.
Thoughts :)
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Have you ever thought of pulling the hives away from the fence and working them from behind? I always work mine from behind or from the side. Things in front of the hives seem to excite my bees.
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See if you can get a rise out of them with waving a towel on a stick around with all the hives uncorked. If it works and they start stinging it, throw a handfull of powdered sugar on the mob and shove the towel in a bucket of water so the pheromones disappear quick. Whoever gets the ghost bees coming back is the aggressive hive. If they start going back to all the hives, you've got problems.
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Ummmm...... :eusa_think:.....well I haven't heard that approach before, trying to visualize this, I'm a bit intrigued, but don't know what that would accomplish with an entire hive of aggressive bees ~ let's see what the others have to say as well. Thanks rwlaw :)
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Good Grief! It's been six days since last check, the top med is 70% full of nectar and starting to cap. I have a new med super ready.
Here's my question: I check all frames quickly, all of them are pulled and have nectar. The first frame I pulled has this bit of brood at the bottom of the frame, and the last frame on the other side has a patch of open brood. Should I assume that as soon as this larvae hatches, that the bees will back fill with nectar in these area's?
Or, should I put on a queen excluder under this super? I'm thinking not?
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They will either backfill it with nectar, or raise drones there. Most likely backfill, but I have often seen drone cells in frames I have extracted.
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Okay, then if I'm going to pull the entire med super off to extract, and there is a bit of drone brood, do I just cut it out before extracting?
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Sometimes I do, but if it's easier, I uncap around it and leave it. The extractor will not uncap it and you can put it back on the hive to hatch. I try to extract and put the supers right back when I can.
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"The hive on the far left is the hive I thought was hot, I still think it is. Two day's ago I was checking the top med of mother hive, the one to the far right, to see how much they have pulled, and the bees were all over me, I'm sure I would have gotten stung if I hadn't suited up.
Hubby and I have been devising a plan, thought I would run it by you guys first.
My robbing screens can be turned around and attached to the hive so you can move the hive. It locks the bees in but they still get all the air circulation. What if: for one day, we put robbing screens on two of the hives, go out into the yard and putz around, mow the lawn, see if we get any aggressive bees. Then the next day switch the robbing screens to the other two hives, see if we get any aggression. Then, the third day, do the last two hives, see if we get any aggression. It would help us determine which hive is the stinging hive."
jen, bees can and will be aggressive in the spring of the year, lift every lid, which one flys in your face? all or one?
don't go to the trouble messing with the robbing screens, MHO. give them time, in short, if you have a hot hive, in time, that hive will fly in your face when you open it. hope this makes sense.
" It's been six days since last check, the top med is 70% full of nectar and starting to cap. I have a new med super ready. Here's my question: I check all frames quickly, all of them are pulled and have nectar. The first frame I pulled has this bit of brood at the bottom of the frame, and the last frame on the other side has a patch of open brood. Should I assume that as soon as this larvae hatches, that the bees will back fill with nectar in these area's? Or, should I put on a queen excluder under this super? I'm thinking not?"
move the drawn frames with nectar and brood up, place the new medium super on underneath, no queen excluder. the bees will take care of the brood, and they will go to work on the new box.
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Riv- "jen, bees can and will be aggressive in the spring of the year, lift every lid, which one flys in your face? all or one?
don't go to the trouble messing with the robbing screens, MHO. give them time, in short, if you have a hot hive, in time, that hive will fly in your face when you open it. hope this makes sense.
See, it's not when I open the lid of the hive that I'm concerned about. It's that we cannot step into our backyard, and within one minute, there is one or two bees that come right up into our face and we are back in the house, bees still bating at the window. I've been getting stung everyday. Just today, I was working 70 feet away from the hives, in the opposite direction from where the flo was headed, not a single bee around me. Within 3 minutes there are two bees in my face, got stung. I went and put on a ball cap with a head veil.
Now, remember that I haven't had hives this size before, if this is typical spring aggression then I'll hold tight. But if this seems a bit much, then I've got to do something about it, I live in a tight neighborhood.
Tomorrow I'll test it out, I'll lift each lid and wait a bit, take notes, then I'll be back with ya :)
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"See, it's not when I open the lid of the hive that I'm concerned about. It's that we cannot step into our backyard, and within one minute, there is one or two bees that come right up into our face and we are back in the house, bees still bating at the window. I've been getting stung everyday. Just today, I was working 70 feet away from the hives, in the opposite direction from where the flo was headed, not a single bee around me. Within 3 minutes there are two bees in my face, got stung. I went and put on a ball cap with a head veil.
Now, remember that I haven't had hives this size before, if this is typical spring aggression then I'll hold tight. But if this seems a bit much, then I've got to do something about it, I live in a tight neighborhood."
okay, i would agree, from your description of not being able to be outside without being stung, etc. so you need to figure out which hive is the aggressor.
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Jen, I split my hot hive (the one I posted about back in the winter) earlier this week. I hope I wasn't too early, but trying to stay ahead of them and there was lots and lots of drone comb and multiple swarm cells that were open, so possibly a new queen (or two) had hatched. The hive was packed with bees. Anyway, I found the queen - it took twice going through all the frames in the brood boxes to find her. I moved her and two frames of brood with nurse bees into a new hive. I wish I had shaken a few more bees into the new hive when I split it, because I don't think I got many foragers based on what I've seen at the entrance since then. But like I've been reading here - the bees will hopefully correct my mistake by growing into their duties. Our red maple is blooming right now and they're bringing in pollen and nectar. I say all of that to say that my hot hive was surprisingly easy to work with the day I split them. I had an awful time with my smoker (which I always do) and had to relight it 3 -4 times while I was in it so they didn't get a huge amount of smoke. Some where still butting my veil and going after the hive tool, but not as bad as earlier. Which is also to say - if they're stinging you across the yard, they're hot and that's out of the ordinary and they and you deserve a new queen and calmer genetics!
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Riv- "okay, i would agree, from your description of not being able to be outside without being stung, etc. so you need to figure out which hive is the aggressor.
Cool! :) weather will be in the high 60's this afternoon so that will be perfect. I'll lift each lid, and take a little break in between.
Hamptor- "Which is also to say - if they're stinging you across the yard, they're hot and that's out of the ordinary and they and you deserve a new queen and calmer genetics!
Yep! I agree and Thanks Hamptor :)
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OKAY! GEEEZ! got suited up to do my nuc/split from Hot Hive. Had to stop two times to put more clothes on. Bees are beating at our windows and sliding door. Guess what! after I put on second layer of clothes, put my bee shirt back on, put the hood up.... I forgot to zip my hood :eusa_wall: got a pissed off bee in my hood. Walked away into the front yard, took 10 minutes for the bees to leave the outside of my veil.
Is there a better time of day to split a hot hive? or is a hot hive hot no matter whot? LOL
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jen, which hive is the hot hive? and why is it hot?
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Hi Riv, I'm so frustrated! It's the hive on the far left. I can't even get out my &)%$ door!
I don't know why it's hot... I've never had a hot hive before. But Iddee suggested that the queen may have run out of pheromones. She is the result of one of the swarms last year, not one of my purchased queens from last year. Maybe she didn't get mated properly... I dunno
I'm all ready to get my frames of brood, eggs, pollen, nectar, and honey, and I have my queen clip ready to snag her when I find her.
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I tell you what I would do and that is if they are as hot as you say I would spray them with some hornet spray and get rid of them period. I will not put up with a hot hive, they may have gotten a ahb queen, as hot and dry as it has been there they may have moved in.
Ken
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If you want to kill them, light your smoker as normal and add a tablespoon of powdered sulfur to it. Smoke them well. It will kill every bee in the hive, but you can put new bees in it the next day. Hornet spray or other insect spray and you destroy the hive.
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Iddee and Kebee ~ It has been a very long day. My last post I was frustrated because I haven't dealt with a hot hive before, had to walk away from the hive three times. My last walk away I went out to the front yard and the bees never left my veil. My question was, is there a time of day when it's easier to deal with splitting a hot hive. I got an answer from another site that I visit from time to time. He said mid day to mid afternoon is the best because most of the foragers are out, but frankly a hot hive is always hot but settles down just a bit at dusk.
So, what the hades, I pulled up my boot straps, went out there with determination to get the job done. Had to inspect five boxes down. Three hours later I finally find the dad gummed queen, she was thinned down. What else did I find? several loaded queen cells and 3 swarm cells on the bottom of the frames.
So I got busy and put a split together, found three good capped brood frames, which also had uncapped larvae of all stages in them. Had a hard time finding any eggs, finally found two frames that had a pretty good patch of eggs, left some eggs in the original hive and left some in the split. Also put a full frame of honey and a full frame of pollen, and one empty frame. Inserted new frames/foundation where needed.
What did I learn from this hot hive experience? It sure makes it difficult trying to find eggs and queens when your veil is covered in pissy bees :D
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Now, what I've read here on the forum, is that the split alone 'should' calm the bees. Or, do I have to wait until the existing brood is hatched out and the new queen's genetics hatch out.
Then, I made sure that the slimmed down queen went into the split. What will happen to her now that she's in the split? will the bees fatten her back up again? she has been prepped for swarming... is that inevitable?
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Forgot about the sulfur in the smoker, thanks iddee.
Ken
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"Three hours later I finally find the dad gummed queen, she was thinned down. What else did I find? several loaded queen cells and 3 swarm cells on the bottom of the frames.
So I got busy and put a split together, found three good capped brood frames, which also had uncapped larvae of all stages in them. Had a hard time finding any eggs, finally found two frames that had a pretty good patch of eggs, left some eggs in the original hive and left some in the split. Also put a full frame of honey and a full frame of pollen, and one empty frame. Inserted new frames/foundation where needed.
Now, what I've read here on the forum, is that the split alone 'should' calm the bees. Or, do I have to wait until the existing brood is hatched out and the new queen's genetics hatch out.
Then, I made sure that the slimmed down queen went into the split. What will happen to her now that she's in the split? will the bees fatten her back up again? she has been prepped for swarming... is that inevitable?"
jen,
your queen is the problem. she is the one with the genetics that's creating pissy, hot bees. by transferring her to the split, you are going to wind up with the same genetics in your split, hot and pissy bee's. it's not the bees, it's your queen.
what i would have done when i found her would have been to send her off to the 'promised land' (sorry ef :)) someone else said here on another thread, something about 'subject to a hive tool examination' (meaning gone, get rid of the queen).
i would have removed the frames with the swarm cells you found and put them in the nuc, and left brood frames with young eggs in the original hive you did the split from for the bees to make a queen.
just my HO.
EDIT AND ADD:
jen, your pix show queen cups, did you have queen cells ?
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In the pics the queen cups have larvae in them and are filling up with royal jelly. That is what that is.. isn't it ?
Then the fourth pic is what I thought was a swarm cell?
It would be nice to clarify that then I can continue ;)
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I have to disagree with RB just slightly here. Meanness in bee genetics is most often carried by the drones. This hive may have mean bees from their fathers. Her daughter may or may not come from one of the mean drones. The new queen may have a different father than the mean bees. Very often a mean hive will get very gentle after requeening from the same hive
AND SOMETIMES RB IS CORRECT.
Jen, it is a queen cup when it is empty. It becomes a queen cell the minute it has an egg in it.
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" Very often a mean hive will get very gentle after requeening from the same hive "
I don't hold my breath iddee :D, with me, very often the bad traits gets passed on, but maybe it's my Karma :laugh:!!!
My mentor has a phrase, "you can't tell what kind of queen the hive has till you've given her a chance"
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Iddee- "Jen, it is a queen cup when it is empty. It becomes a queen cell THE MINUTE AN EGG IS IN IT.
That is a good bit of info, Thanks. So I do have a hive that is ramping up for a swarm. Now, because I removed the queen, who was slimmed down. I have lessened the chance of a swarm, even tho they are in swarm mode.
Now, getting back to the queen, I know now that the reason I it took so long to find her is because she slimmed down for flight. Now that I have her moved over to the split... what happens to her? will the bees fatten her up again? or is a swarm inevitable?
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Jen, your disastrous queen hunt happened for a couple of reasons: even very gentle bees will get riled up if you're in the hive for more than 20 to 30 minutes. Also once your suit gets stung a couple of times, the attack pheromones will draw more and more bees to your suit and the situation snowballs out of control. A couple of suggestions for similar future event: put a queen excluder 1/2 way down the hive and leave them for 4 days. The 1/2 with the eggs will have the queen in it and you have a lot less looking to do. Also the minute your suit gets stung, remove the stinger and heavily smoke that spot to mask the pheromones.
I think the suggestion to kill the hive is ridiculous. Just re-queen and in a few weeks you have a completely different set of bees. I would treat this much the same way as you did with eliminating your swarmy genetics last year. Destroy all queen cells and introduce a purchased queen, or wait 3 days so there are no more eggs destroy all queen cells and introduce a frame with eggs from a calm hive.
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As for your queen question: you could clip one of her wings, so she can't fly off. I think you should just let her go to bee heaven and let the nuc raise a new queen, or combine the nuc with one of your weaker hives. To reduce the likelyhood of after swarms in your big hive, you should eliminate all but two of the nicest queen cells (if you decide to let them have these cells at all).
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i have another thought, just throw this out. when hives are aggressive, i typically tend to think first, that the hive is queenless.
jen you said you found a slimmed down queen, which we are all thinking maybe is a result of the bees readying for a swarm. this may not be the case. when you found her and split the hive and put her in the nuc, were the bees ignoring her? was she runny on the frames? describe what you saw as far as her behavior and the bees behavior.
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I have to disagree with RB just slightly here. Meanness in bee genetics is most often carried by the drones. This hive may have mean bees from their fathers. Her daughter may or may not come from one of the mean drones. The new queen may have a different father than the mean bees. Very often a mean hive will get very gentle after requeening from the same hive
Question iddee. I can see it your way, but maybe Riv makes more sense to me. The queen doesn't just mate with one drone but many. Wouldn't this make it difficult for the temperament of the hive to come from the drone? The queens genetics are the only consistent thing here.
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actually tbone, iddee is correct on the aggression....
"Meanness in bee genetics is most often carried by the drones. This hive may have mean bees from their fathers. Her daughter may or may not come from one of the mean drones. The new queen may have a different father than the mean bees."
i was thinking from the standpoint, that if jen's laying queen is shooting out aggressive bees, i don't want that queen in my hive. the sperm she carries may be from the mean drones she mated with. however, if she is a daughter queen, as iddee said, she may have a different father.
hope this makes sense?
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Riv- 'i was thinking from the standpoint, that if jen's laying queen is shooting out aggressive bees, i don't want that queen in my hive. the sperm she carries may be from the mean drones she mated with. however, if she is a daughter queen, as iddee said, she may have a different father.
If this is the queen I had last summer in this hive, she had a very peaceful hive.... why would she be putting out mean bees this summer?
Riv- I'm going to answer your question on how this presumably slimmed down queen was acting yesterday:
Riv- "i have another thought, just throw this out. when hives are aggressive, i typically tend to think first, that the hive is queenless.
jen you said you found a slimmed down queen, which we are all thinking maybe is a result of the bees readying for a swarm. this may not be the case. when you found her and split the hive and put her in the nuc, were the bees ignoring her? was she runny on the frames? describe what you saw as far as her behavior and the bees behavior.
I think I know where this question is heading because I have been pondering it as well... in that maybe she's not the original queen from last summer, maybe the original queen was superceded? But I didn't find any cracked open queen cells where she could have hatched from. It may be that she's not mated yet and that's why she's slim.
Okay, I disassembled the hive went thru every frame, then back tracked while re-assembling the hive. I found her in the new top medium, the first one I took off and the last one to be put back on top. She was standing alone, not many bees on this frame because it was mostly pulled wax and nectar. I was surprised but relieved to find her there. She was not running around but was not being tended to by any bees.
It would make sense that she was not being tended to if she wasn't mated yet, having no pheromones yet.
I was going out to get her and take a pic, but it started to rain and is too cool.
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Tbone, every bee in the hive didn't come out to get her. Probably less than 1% attacked. If the queen mated with 20 drones, 4% of the bees come from that one drone. Add to that, even gentle bees become mean when the guard pheremones let loose, so if a dozen mean bees sting, there's enough guard pheremone in the air to upset the whole hive and put them into attack mode. Now, under that scenario, if she mated with even 2 mean drones, there's a 92% chance the daughter will come from a gentle drone.
Jen, if she is a virgin queen, the old queen may be still in there. Check it again between 4 and 10 days after the split, and if you have eggs, you didn't get her.
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Also depends on time of day and the weather clear sunny day at 1 in the afternoon, big piece of the workforce will still be out in the field and it is the work force that are the mean ones, you have guard bees, and they certainly will sting if they think the colony is threatened but the field is that have been out and exposed to predators diving in and out of bushes and plants they're the ones that actually do the singing. And they do so with a fervor once they start getting a sting or two and the alarm pheromone is released the recruiting process starts and you probably don't need to be there when the process starts to get into full swing that would be an unpleasant place to be, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. overcast days tend to keep the workforce home, once again these are the meanies, and when not foraging they readily assume other details, like say guard duty, over the horizon colony defense.
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Iddee- "Jen, if she is a virgin queen, the old queen may be still in there. Check it again between 4 and 10 days after the split, and if you have eggs, you didn't get her.
Okay. Then, what should I do with the slim queen in the nuc? Wednesday is going to be nice enough to get into the nuc, I can take some pics, cause frankly, I don't know if I would know the difference between an unmated queen or a slimmed down queen... would that help?
And by the way I left eggs in both the hive and nuc.
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No one else can tell the difference either, and eggs hatch into larva in 3 days, so the mother hive will not have eggs 4 days after you made the split if you got the old queen out.
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Okay. I see the timing there now. I'll wait until Wednesday to check for new eggs, the weather will be nice. I sure don't look forward to breaking down that hive again, but I did fine with doubled up clothes and a lot of duct tape :D
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You might want to wash your gloves and bee suit. It will make a difference (for a few minutes anyway)
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That's a good idea Pete, I'll do that today, supposed to be in the 60's tomorrow :)
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Iddee ""Jen, if she is a virgin queen, the old queen may be still in there. Check it again between 4 and 10 days after the split, and if you have eggs, you didn't get her.
Okay. Then, what should I do with the slim queen in the nuc? Wednesday is going to be nice enough to get into the nuc, I can take some pics, cause frankly, I don't know if I would know the difference between an unmated queen or a slimmed down queen... would that help?
And by the way I left eggs in both the hive and nuc.
UPDATED REPLY ~ Iddee, the nuc that I pulled from my Hot Hive, the queen, from the hot hive is fine and the nuc is filled with eggs. I added more frames of bees and comb, it's a hive now.
You said to check back in 4-10 days for eggs in the Hot Hive, I missed that window, life got in the way with hubs and a surgery. If in fact the queen in the nuc was the queen in the hot hive, I think I may look into a hive full of drone brood... I have Friday to get into the Hot Hive, what should I look for? I want to try and not get into this hive again. Thanks ;)
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If you did in fact pull the old queen from that hive, (which I think is the most likely scenario) then you have 15 or 16 days from that date till a new queen emerges. It will be another week to two weeks before she starts laying. What you should be looking for is empty queen cells. The bees themselves should tell you if they're queen right. If they are bringing in lots of pollen and acting normal, then there is a queen. If they're agitated and milling around, they're likely queenless. Don't worry, it takes more than a couple of weeks without a queen to turn them into drone layers.
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Pete, 12 to 13 days til she emerges. They start with a larva, not an egg.
Jen, From Mar. 20, to Apr. 2 is 13 days. You may find capped queen cells if you look early enough. She should emerge today.
Otherwise, you will just have to hope you have eggs within 3 weeks.If no eggs in 2 weeks, I would add a frame of eggs and larva.
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I kind of figured 24 hours till they decide to make new queens, then starting with day 4 (one day old larva) and emergence at day 18. It's been a while since I looked at queen rearing calendars. I guess I need a review.
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They emerge on day 16, not 18. It can vary 1 day, but never heard of a 2 day variance.
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Sorry Iddee and Pete ??? Been busy with hubby/doc needs. This isn't clear to me yet. I have this afternoon to get into hot hive. It would help if you can give me an idea of what I might find.
The nuc was pulled on the 20th. Today is April 3rd. That makes 15 days since I pulled the nuc.
1. Pete you say, empty queen cells?
2. But Iddee says that the new queen should emerge on the 16th day. Maybe I ought to wait another couple of days?
The bees are still after us. Can't enjoy the backyard without a ball cap and veil. The neighbor dog now sports the next sting from our front yard.
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Too late to find capped queen cell, too early to see eggs. Leave them alone for another 10 days.
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Iddee "Too late to find capped queen cell, too early to see eggs"
I understand that there won't be any eggs yet. When queen emerges she will need a girls gone wild week. Then she will start laying.
"Too late to find capped queen cell" is that because the queen will have hatched on the 16th day, which is tomorrow?
Sorry Iddee, gotta spell it out for me ;)
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They started cells with larva, not eggs. You pulled the nuc on the third or fourth day. Add 15 and you are now on day 18 or 19.
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Oooooh... Okay! That's what you and Pete were discussing and doing all that math stuff, and I had to leave for a bit.
Okay, not the four days of the egg, but first day it is larvae which is the 5th.
Got it marked on my calendar for the April 13th, check for queen and eggs :)
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Answering Scott's question from another thread.
Six new mediums, Veiled Hubby and Bees (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,3536.msg51231.html#msg51231)
Scott - "Why not give this hive a frame of eggs and let them raise a queen? I see no reason NOT to let them raise a new queen, provided you make them do it with eggs from a queen YOU like, and not their original queen.
Axe old queen... wait 4 to 5 days, go through each frame carefully and remove ALL Q Cells. Then swap out one of their frames with a frame of eggs from a good hive..
I am assuming you have drones there? Were only a few days away from emerging drones here, so you should have them there.
Jen - I pulled a nuc on the 20th. Didn't settle them down. I haven't been in there yet to see if the new queen is hatched, weather has been cold. I'll be checking back into hot hive around the 13th to see new queen and attitude in the hive, weather permitting.
I'm going on the suggestion that 'divide and concur' will calm a hot hive down. That the daughter of the queen will calm them down.
If that doesn't work... then the swarm I caught the other day has my sweet green painted queen and she is laying, so I can requeen with one of her frames.
Sure is a lengthy process when I can't purchase a queen or two until the end of May.
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Discussing my two new colonies, wondering about hot bees mixed with nice bees.
HOT NUC ~ Exactly 4 weeks ago I pulled a nuc from Hot Hive in hopes of calming them down. We're still getting stung.
This nuc has three frames of brood, not much else, more pollen than nectar, and three untouched bare foundations
See the bees honoring her, that's the first time I've seen that in my hives. But she is from hot genetics, and I'm sure we are getting stung from this nuc as well as Hot Hive. She has room to lay, but bees aren't pulling wax very quickly.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2F76w2523tz%2FDSCF2250.jpg&hash=71d8e94b067ae467409365666c514c2c20c33ad1) (http://postimg.cc/image/76w2523tz/)
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SWARM HIVE NICE BEES
My first swarm came surprisingly from a hive I thought I was watching carefully. This swarm hive has 7 bountiful frames of brood, just gorgeous, pollen and not very much nectar. She is being honored as well in this pic.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.postimg.cc%2Fllzf0li0f%2FDSCF2245.jpg&hash=558654c5399e5651909d2401f2658d83fc346c28) (http://postimg.cc/image/llzf0li0f/)
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Is it a good idea to combine hot bees with nice bees? kill hot nuc queen? newspaper style?
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what i am reading from both of these is lack of nectar/feed..........are you feeding them jen?
"This nuc has three frames of brood, not much else, more pollen than nectar, and three untouched bare foundations
This swarm hive has 7 bountiful frames of brood, just gorgeous, pollen and not very much nectar. "
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I've just started feeding the nuc last week. We've had a 7 day cold snap, and there isn't a flo right now. But before the cold snap the hives had plenty of nectar, they must have been eating it.
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Update:
I got into Hot Hive early this evening, nice 70 degrees. I did this to determine what this hive looks like after the swarm 4 days ago, I have to make a decision about everyone getting stung.
It Was Pandomonium! The hive is void of Everything... except really mad bees, three queen cells center of frames, and the top super has quite a bit of capped honey. I'll take the honey thank you very much! Sulfer Time
I'm fed up! This hive and her nuc are taking the banana boat Outa Here!
Day O ~ Daaayo, daylight come and the bees are goin' hoooome ~
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Fed Up Beekeeper!
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Iddee_ "If you want to kill them, light your smoker as normal and add a tablespoon of powdered sulfur to it. Smoke them well. It will kill every bee in the hive, but you can put new bees in it the next day. Hornet spray or other insect spray and you destroy the hive.
Should I take the honey super off before the sulfur sauna?
Now, the next time I use my smoker, will there be sulfer residue that will go into another hive? :o
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The honey super should be allowed to air a few days afterward before using, but it will be safe after airing.
I would clean the smoker well and leave outside with top open for 24 hours.
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Okay, and one of the sites we cruzed thru last night about using sulfur to kill a hive is that it can take up to an hour of smoking. Would that be in your experience Iddee?
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I don't kill bees. The sulfur was used up north back when they killed the bees, took the honey, and bought packages in the spring. I have only read about it.
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Curious ~
Do you relocate hot bees then? Say you live in town like I do, what would you do with hot bees?
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Requeen every 5 frames in nucs, with different genetic queens. If you want to pay overnight shipping, I can send you queens tomorrow.
Meaning each 10 frame box would become 2 nucs.
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I like that idea, however....
"The hive is void of Everything... except really mad bees, three queen cells center of frames"
Scenario - I make a nuc out of a hive that has no eggs, no larvae, no capped brood? I would be putting 5 blank frames with pulled wax in the nuc with angry bees. Introduce a queen, she would be released in about 3 days and start laying. It takes 21 days to make a bee, so in 21 days a bunch of bees would be born from the new queen. Now we have a new colony with new genetics. Meanwhile, the rest of the mad bees will be dying out, that would be about 2-3 weeks from now.... right?
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All things with bees are "most times", not "always. The temperament of a hive tends to come from the pheremones of the queen. Most times a requeened hive will get docile as soon as the new queen is accepted.
Add to that, the larger the hive, the more aggressive. A nuc will almost always be gentler than a large hive. The combination of requeening and breaking into nucs will work to calm the bees.
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Thanks for riding that out with me Iddee, you're a patient teacher ;) I do believe I've covered all or most of the options on what to do with a hot hive. And I also know that each beeks situation is going to be different. Last year my lessons were on multiple swarms. This year it's hot hives. Makes me wonder what I'm in for next spring ;) 8)
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Next year will be 40 years I've kept bees. Saturday a man asked me how much I knew about keeping bees. I replied, "about 3%". I'm learning every day. Don't expect to get all the answers anytime soon.
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Iddee- "I'm learning every day. Don't expect to get all the answers anytime soon.
I beg to disagree, with this forum I have learned an insurmountable amount of bee knowledge 'Quickly' ;)
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Next year will be 40 years I've kept bees. Saturday a man asked me how much I knew about keeping bees. I replied, "about 3%". I'm learning every day. Don't expect to get all the answers anytime soon.
40 years is quite an extraordinary accomplishment! In layman's terms: You da man! :eusa_clap: :occasion14:
If you could only put all your experiences in a book, it would be a "must read".
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If you could only put all your experiences in a book, it would be a "must read".
I will pay for an autographed copy! ;D
I will likely have to settle for an Autographed picture to hang in my mancave Bee Shed.. Bee shed being 40 by 80 and heated!!
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These are the frames of honey from Hot Hive. All ten frames are about half full. Can I put them into my other hives and let them finish filling them out with nectar and capping? or save them for winter feed? or extract?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Ft23r1acah%2FDSCF2282.jpg&hash=7b009800b6337cbca26cc1b95c41e540fe76dc94) (http://postimg.cc/image/t23r1acah/)
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Why not let them on and allow the bees to finish filling the?
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You mean why not leave them in hot hive and let them finish filling them out?
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Yes, lol must check spell check. Being so early in the season, surely they have much more nectar to gather.
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Because Hot Hive no longer exists ;)
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Put it on the strongest to finish it up
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Yep, put it on the next best hive and they will finish it up.. make sure to have another box under or over.. it takes two supers to store the nectar that will eventually dehydrate into ONE super. Make sure they have the room!
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Sounds good you guys! Thanks!
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like barry and scott said, put them in the other two hives, and what i would do is pull any empties and replace with these.
if there are no empties, or some empties save whatever, give them when needed or for the 'un-rainy' day (dearth) in california when they need feed. i wouldn't extract them.
"Because Hot Hive no longer exists ;)"
do tell?
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Okay Riv, that was one of my other questions is if I could rotate them in. My only concern is mixing one hives honey with another hive. I do know that all my hives are clean of AFB or EFB.
"Because Hot Hive no longer exists"
I pulled a nuc 6 weeks ago in order to calm the bees. Didn't work. Then Hot Hive swarmed 4 weeks ago. Didn't calm them down. 4 people have been stung, me repeatedly just going out the back door, our dog got nailed and our neighbors dog got nailed. Mama had enough. Hot Hive got a sulful smoke. It was a big hive so it only got about half the mean bees, so I suited up and took the shop vac to them. Peace Reigns In the Neighborhood :)
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sure you can jen, like you said, free of afb or efb.
sorry you had to deal with having to destroy a hive of bees, but in the best interests of your family and your neighborhood, very understandable.
so you used sulfur in the smoker and it didn't work, then took the shop vac to them?
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We searched online first for more info on how to use sulfur in the smoker. Like Iddee said, light up your smoker, good thick smoke, put a tablespoon of sulfur in, close it up. Go to the hive and smoke the entrance real good like for 4-5 minutes. I put a old towel around the entrance because it helped direct more of the sulfur smoke straight into the entrance, it was a little windy. I did three sulfur smokes in one afternoon. By that evening I didn't think it had any effect on the bees. I left the hive alone overnight. By morning the entrance was blocked by dead bees. However, I knocked on the hive and there was still a definate buzz. I got our shop vac and vacuumed out the entrance... then I took the lid off and vacuum as many live bees as I could get out. I got them all. Mission accomplished ;) Then I got my grandsons toy trumpet and very slowly walked by the other hives playing Taps, pulling the shopvac behind me...
Seems this recipe is good for a hive that is one deep or maybe 2 deeps of bees, no more than that. My hive was 5 boxes tall and I think the sulfur only got to the bees on the bottom portion of the hive.
There is peace in the Queendom :)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs8.postimg.cc%2Flpz5bgcht%2FDSCF2272.jpg&hash=84158490c0e44eea8159927db739663cc463e95b) (http://postimg.cc/image/lpz5bgcht/)