Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Zookeep on December 28, 2013, 07:21:06 am
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getting rid of the last of them, for me they are a complete fail, every hive I have inspected with the screened bottom board has done the same thing. they have abandoned the bottom half of every frame in the bottom box and yet the hives with solid boards are brood right to the board, I am so glad I did not go hole hog and buy a bunch of them.
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I've been having the same problem since day one and went on year round,but didn't have a clue why.Thanks Bill!!!!!
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I also stopped using SBB many years ago and have no regrets.
I know many folks believe that the screened bottom board (SBB) helps reduced varroa population because the mites fall through the SBB and can not climb back up or grab onto a passing bee. This does seem logical, and most people can visualize this process and easily buy into it. The basic premise that they take for granite is that the natural fall off rate of varroa is significant. I personally do not believe it is. There are studies that show the proposed benefits of the SBB can be outweighed by the temperature drop if the SBB is left open for ventilation, both in the brood nest where the mites breed, and in the rate of falling off bees. So if you're using open SBB, inserting empty frames in the brood nest, using top entrance, or any other method that reduces the hive temperature, are you are helping the population of varroa grow?
I have attached two PDF files showing results of the studies if you want to read them in their entirety.
Temperature seems to have more of an impact on Varroa reproduction than most people thought. While 95ºF is "brood nest temperature," that temperature fluctuates some with climatic conditions. By carefully controlling temperature, Varroa were found to reproduce best at 93ºF. Performance was a bit worse at 88-91 and 95º. At the lower than brood nest temperatures, the post-capping period is extended about one day per 2ºF. At higher temperatures the post-capping period is not shortened significantly. However, at "brood nest" and higher temperatures, mite reproduction drops way off. In the same study it was shown that 53% of the mites on brood held at 59-68% RH (normal) reproduced normally but at humilities of 79-85% only 2% of the mites reproduced. Hot, humid brood nests are tough on Varroa. Studies of Apis cerana brood nests showed drone brood is reared at 92ºF (perfect for Varroa) and worker brood is incubated at 96-98ºF (too hot for Varroa). Purposely cooling the brood nest in Apis mellifera colonies by using a "thin" hive lid, open bottom board, simulative feeding to spread brood out, and splitting the brood nest with frames of foundation doubled the numbers of mites on the bees.
The antivarroa bottom board must never be used with its bottom hole opened as this leads to a lowering of cluster temperature resulting in ideal conditions for varroa development. As confirmed in 2000, this situation not only negated the beneficial effects of the bottom board, it also resulted in a net increase in the mite infestation rate (29.2% more varroa mites, non significant) as compared to the control group.
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Nice link.
I stopped using them and am trying to cycle out the ones I have. I seem to recall only a 15% benefit would be realized (natural drop) in the reduction of mite levels using them.
I also started to find wax moth becoming a problem in the last couple of years as a result of debris below the screen where the bee couldn't gain access.
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Same here, mine are all being slowly worked out of the system too. I find it also gives ants another entrance that is hard to control along with the stray weed growing up through it.
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I also started to find wax moth becoming a problem in the last couple of years as a result of debris below the screen where the bee couldn't gain access.
Yes, I like the refer to SBB as "wax moth heaven". Food falls from the sky and they are protected from the bees by the screen. I have heard of quite a few cases of weak hives that where taken over by wax moths that multiplied from under the SBB.
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Know of a couple that swear by their SBB's. They claim you need to use a slatted rack to get the bees using the entire lower brood box... I've never said anything to them about it.. but it always made me think... Isn't that defeating the entire purpose? Being CHEAP.. I cant see buying SBB's and then buying racks.. Maybe if I only had three or four hives...
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Thanks for that info Robo.
I am in a rather cool location compared to a lot of you. My thought is it lowered hive temps for too much of the day to a point where wax making was reduced and the foragers could not get going as early in the day as they were needed for covering brood. I keep my bottom entrances small until they are crowded. Buildup is quicker on solid bottoms.
The screened bottoms are good for doing mite drop counts but they have drawbacks I think.
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I'm with ya Zoo....I have went all solid since my second season.
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New keeper here. Can one of you post a decent list of pro's and con's so we can learn. I've heard of the SBB but never used one. Any other downfalls besides whats been posted??
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i don't use them finally, and never have, so i can't give any advice or opinion on them. i'm an old fashioned keep, so i use solid bottom boards. i tend not to try and fix something that isn't broken and works for me.......lol :)
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I have changed from the open SBB to the SBB with the oil tray because of SHB. I did that last summer, so I don't have a full year's worth of info on that type yet. I guess I'll use the SBBs on swarm traps and such, since I don't want to throw them away.
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I've gotten rid of my screen bottoms,also. When the bees chased the hive beetles,they would run thru the screen and hang out under the hive until they could sneak back in. I never used the oil trays,just open bottoms for "ventilation", which I thought was a good thing at the time.
I also found that the queens avoided laying near the screen bottom, I suppose because the temperature wasn't as well regulated there.
I'm much more satisfied with solid bottoms and the bees seem to be, too.
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All your comments are very interesting. I use a sbb because of the ever controversial ventilation thing, and I can get an idea of my mite count with a plastic board smeared with crisco. And after a formic acid treatment, I can easily estimate the carnal damage. I don't like doing the sugar roll, or the ether roll. This next season I'll watch for how the queen broods down on the bottom of the frames.
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Another reason I like solids is because they are easier to build. Screens involve so much more when building them.
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Very good info.
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I have had another problem with screened bottom boards. On a couple of occasions my hives have requeened. After her mating flight, the queen went under the screened bottom board rather than into the hive. I wound up with a hive full of highly polished cells and content workers who felt queenright. I also had a large cluster of bees under the bottom board. The first time I saw it, it took me awhile to figure out what was going on. I broke down the hive and dumped the cluster into the hive and reassembled it all. It was fine after that. I have seen it one or two times since, and now use sbb only when I temporarily don't have enough solids.
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Has anyone seen this product? www.bluebees.com.au (http://www.bluebees.com.au) Is there any difference between this and slatted bottom boards?
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My opinion. it is a lot of words used to say nothing. Kinda like a politician talks.
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Slatted bottom boards around here have went to the way side years ago. I think the SBB is not far behind it.
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Jacobs.. Hm, interesting.
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I have both types of bottom boards, all the above makes sense as to not use screen bottom boards, but in there defense i will say that with the humidity and high temps in my area that by using them in the hot dry summer it frees up workers to make honey, that would otherwise be bearding and fanning to cool the hive. Many of my club members said the sbb's with trays of oil under them saved there hives from shb's. I'm thinking of putting screen bottom boards on in the summer on my strong honey producing hives and putting solid bottom boards on in the winter.Jack
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I like that idea Jack!
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When I was considering making them to use that was going to be my plan.. Open them when it was really hot, but keep a sticky/grease board under them the rest of the time..
Its days like today that make me glad I dont have them.. 18 earlier, about 9 right now and 30 mph gusts... COLD out there!!
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Its days like today that make me glad I dont have them.. 18 earlier, about 9 right now and 30 mph gusts... COLD out there!!
And heading my way >:( >:(
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Solid bottoms aren't bad. Screen bottoms aren't bad. Screen bottoms with solid panel under them are terrible.
Wax moth and SHB incubating area at it's finest.
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Solid bottoms aren't bad. Screen bottoms aren't bad. Screen bottoms with solid panel under them are terrible.
Wax moth and SHB incubating area at it's finest.
I just cant imagine this somehow? Maybe if you never checked or cleaned those slide ins.. but isnt that the purpose of them? Cleaning / checking them at each inspection? I have never used them so honestly dont know!!!
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If you check/clean them every 5 days, fine. In 7 days, the damage is done. I don't know any beeks that do it that often.
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"I just cant imagine this somehow? Maybe if you never checked or cleaned those slide ins.. but isnt that the purpose of them? Cleaning / checking them at each inspection? I have never used them so honestly dont know!!!"
Confused, not sure what you guys are talking about, sbb or slide ins? what's a slide in? You mean like the plastic sign covered in crisco that I have under my sbb?
And for some reason I not able to use the tool bar up above? is there a setting I should check for?
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You should check your slide in board every day, clean it, and put it back. After 3days, remove it completely. Average the mite count for the 3 days, and make your treatment decisions from that average.
If you can't use the tool bar, sign out, close your browser, open it again and sign back in. When signing in, check the "keep me signed in" box. Then tell me if it worked.
Also, what browser are you using? If IE, switch to another one. My preference is firefox.
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If you check/clean them every 5 days, fine. In 7 days, the damage is done. I don't know any beeks that do it that often.
Ahh.. OK.. the problem is in my failure to realize how fast the problems can develop. In my limited imagination I couldnt picture bad problems with an inspection cleaning every couple of weeks..
Yeah Jay.. the screened bottom board with the slide in board in place. some have a hardboard, some use the corrugated plastic sign, and I've seen a couple that have a piece of metal from an old road sign, just have never used them and apparently have some misconceptions to fix!
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Let me add that I am referring to warm weather. Leaving it in when the weather is too cold for the pests to multiply should be all right. It may even help keep the cold out.
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"You should check your slide in board every day, clean it, and put it back. After 3days, remove it completely. Average the mite count for the 3 days, and make your treatment decisions from that average."
To clarify: why take the slide in board out completely after three days? I just leave mine in, check it once a week, clean it, put it back in. I can tell a lot of what's going on inside my hive by the dropping on the oily slide in board... ???
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Here a little further south than you, if the board is forgotten because we got busy or something, wax moth will set up shop pretty quick.
I put old rubber roofing under my hive to keep the weeds down, and a big plus is being able to see what is being thrown out the front of the hive or dropped through the screened bottom board. Even better is the fact that it is free.
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Practicing pic posting
This is how my hive is set up.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2F64q3fxk13%2FDSCF7012.jpg&hash=07f1852123117e228d9be20d904eeb949938820e) (http://postimg.cc/image/64q3fxk13/)
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Looks good! ;)
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Looks good!
Are you a scuba diver?
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well now wait a minute.......are you running a screened bottom board?
If so how do you pull the slide out board out with a fence behind the hive??
Kind of defeats the purpose of a SBB with it sitting on a piece of plywood too.
The screened piece on the front of the hive is a "robber screen".
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Noticed the dive weights too!
That doesnt look like a screened bottom board.. at least not the type you can put a sliding board in.. Maybe someone has cut the plywood out and stapled screen into it...
I'd take the robber screen off the front until its needed... You only have one hive right??? So chances are you wont have much of a robbing problem anytime soon, unless you have another nearby Beek or feral hives. It wont hurt anything but it does slow them down coming and going.
I'd also send you an inner cover and Tele cover if you want them Jay.
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Boy! After reading all this I'm thinking about starting 2014 with solid bottoms. I've got SBB ready but, can be changed pretty easily.
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These pics ought to show how the bottom of my hive is set up. Yes, we did cut out the bottom of the bottom board and tacked screen on.
You can see how my sticky board moves in and out.
I had the robber screen on from last spring for feral bee invasion. The weirdest thing with the ferals this last spring... they would come about a dozen at a time, some would go into the hive, some would land and die right there, freaked my bees out and the hive swarmed three times in ten days. Then I freaked out and got the screen, I love the screen.
The lid to this hive kit came with just the top and a lip on the front and back, none on the sides. We kept it that way until a couple of weeks ago and now hubby tacked on the sides, this is to avoid condensation.
The dive weights are from when we were mining the rich hills of California just about 40 minutes from where we live. No! we didn't get rich. Don't mine anymore because California banned dredging a couple of years ago. :'(
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2Fkk71onhkt%2FDSCF8420.jpg&hash=fb86bd637340be3ec48c14aef81037f542a5a3f0) (http://postimg.cc/image/kk71onhkt/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2Fnfk4vilkt%2FDSCF8421.jpg&hash=532169a68348dbe1441a7864a1cd3153ef4ab89e) (http://postimg.cc/image/nfk4vilkt/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2Frsiodxubh%2FDSCF8422.jpg&hash=29d97efe452075016bb4ea0a39675401ef1a65b6) (http://postimg.cc/image/rsiodxubh/)
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AHA!!! Now thats a hive set up for winter!
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;D So Lazy, you can see that I have a tele lid, but I don't have an inner cover... I would love to take you up on that offer, let me get my checkbook, you tell me how much including tax... Deal?
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Nope.. :-X PM me where to mail it.. ;D Not charging YOU for an inner cover that cost me a couple bucks. Your hive is a standard ten frame Langstroth? want to make sure to send you the right size.
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Okay Lazy- I pm'd you, I hope i did it right. and I made you an offer of a trade for some of my homemade products from the hive. Let me know if you don't get the pm ~
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YUP, got it, lazy postal workers are taking tomorrow off.. something about it being New years day ... ??? But I will have it in route first thing Thursday!
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great pix jen!!!
very awesome on you lazy for making some inner covers to send jen, and quality and craftsmanship......err craftsbeeship....(lol) beyond what can be purchased!
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Hey, Perry, it sounds like pie time to me.
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Thanks riv- I'm excited to get the cover as well. I was telling lazy that we live rather remote. The only bee store that we have close is 1 1/2 hours away, and shopping online wants $20 shipping ~ What The hades Over!
I have popsicle sticks in my hive now, will feel so complete to have a nice inner cover.
And in exchange I will send him and his wife who loves foot massages some of my homemade 'Let It Bee' Winter Honey Lotion.
I'll take a pic of my sweet hive with the cover on when that happens ~giggling~ 8)
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:-[ You will probably see pics of ME somewhere busy rubbing some Tiny FEETS.. No worries though, she falls asleep in about three minutes... Allows me to complain about how I rubbed them little FEETS for HOURS.. 8)
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Aaaawe what a nice guy! bless you heart! and I mean that!!!
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"I'll take a pic of my sweet hive with the cover on when that happens ~giggling~ (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldwidebeekeeping.com%2Fforum%2FSmileys%2Fblue%2Fcool.gif&hash=347adf24c8f372a0c4eb036607cadc146d274464)"
pix are a requirement here, it's in the 'rule book' jen..........LOL!!! (just kidding)would love to see the pix of the new covers!
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Excellent! Cause I Luuuv to take and post pics 8)
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Hey, Perry, it sounds like pie time to me.
Nooo, NO PIE!! Pie is a reward for doing something extraordinary, like Iddee setting this place up for us, NOT for being helpful, or conning another beek into giving up their valuable hive products for a cheesy inner cover!!! ;D
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Value is irrelevant. The vibes from the heart are what is measured.
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Snarking and laughing! Would you rather me send you.. A PIE! I make one mean blackberry pie I'm tellin ya! 8)
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I get this stttraaannnge feelin my my forum posts been hijacked
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Zoo, this crowd can't stay on topic for 2 pages, much less 4. Throw a cup of fermented honey at them ""us"". Maybe come spring and the cabin fever lets up a bit, they""we"" can do a bit more bee talk.
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Oops! my sincere apologies eh hem :-[
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after a little (too much) strawberry mead turns out I dont care where the post went lol
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I keep my hives in full sun because deep shade and shb / mites took out my first hive, with a nice toasty temp near 100.
I am in Texas. Since my bee yard is about 95 degrees or higher for about 6 months out of the year, over 100 for 2 to 3 months out of the year, I changed my solid bottom boards out to sbb's, and I keep oil sticky sheets under them in the winter. I will check my brood pattern in February or so and see if the "not filling frame" is true, but to be honest, looking through old pics I have on file, I'm not seeing a problem. My bees are VSH, which means they remove the varroa and drop them, and the oiled sticky which I make myself for less than a dollar a piece does a real nice job of catching them. I build my own sbb's, they aren't perfect but they work for me.
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Excellent Gypsi! I use a sbb as well and check it all year long every couple of weeks. I almost lost my hive this last fall to mites. I was instructed to put a sticky board under the sbb and it's a good thing I did. I used formic acid sticky strips and had over 2,000 mite kill. Geez!
I just made mine out of a plastic realty sign and smear Crisco shortening on it. They fall and stick, Yes they do.
It was interesting to see how after the formic acid treatment, the bees were more active and docile. I like happy bees
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after a little (too much) strawberry mead turns out I dont care where the post went lol
Thanks Zoo.. started the morning with a good rolling belly laugh. I needed that after shoveling and plowing for the last hour and a half!!! I'll try not to Hijack anymore... :-[
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We are going to do our first oxalic vaporizer treatment tomorrow, I hope there is a down wind. I'm excited 8)
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Bees can't get through wire, and why would bees try to get through bottom unless they were trying to rob? ? It's full of oil, there's no way the bees can get to it,unless they try and get in around the drawer opening, if it's built rite no dead bees, we're still trying to perfect the slide with different type seals
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Mikey When the use of SBB was first used it was touted a a natural means to control and to monitor varroa mites. Yours are designed for the control of SHB using the oil trap. 2 totally different products in my opinion. In both design and in the way they are used.
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Thanks for clearing that up for me.