Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: Marion on April 15, 2015, 11:29:39 am
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I just pulled out the varoa mite chart that was in my hive for 3 days. The chart is 10" by 10". I counted 31 varroa mites. Is this serious enough to treat now or can it wait until fall?
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Hi Marion, Randy Oliver says to count the amount of mites on the sticky board, multiply it by 100 and that is how many mites are still in the hive, on the bees, and in the capped brood. My personal method is if I count 10 mites on my sticky board that means I have at least 1,000 mites of destruction in the hive, I Treat! And it holds true every time I treat I get from 1,000 - 2,000 mite kill.
This site scientificbeekeeping.com is a wonderful learning place for beekeepers.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/
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That's 10 mites a day over three days, and it's spring time. Treat!
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I will do this tomorrow. I have some MAQS strips. Thank you both for the advice.
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Like Perry said, it's Spring time. The same number of mites in the middle of summer would be no cause for alarm. In the spring you wan to re-set your mite count to near zero so they won't get our of control before you pull your honey sometime in August. Mite counts also have to be considered in relation to colony strength. 1000 mites in a colony that's 3 boxes deep and bursting with bees is no big deal. The same number in a weak colony is disastrous.
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Hi Marion, I wanted to you to see this. Last Sunday I did my first of three Oxalic Treatments. Before the treatment I counted somewhere around 15 mites on my sticky board, and then cleaned it off prior to my first treatment so I would get a clear idea of how many mites the treatment killed. There is over 1,000 mites on this board since the first treatment. That is 1,000 too many mites for my liking :o
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs12.postimg.cc%2F5x5d88rex%2FDSCF2273.jpg&hash=8b417984218c1b74637fd0fc99ac757d1d383ec7) (http://postimg.cc/image/5x5d88rex/)
Each hive is it's own universe so to speak. I did the exact same method of treatment, the same day, on the hive next door to the one above, and got only 100 mite kill. Still that is 100 too many mites sucking fluids out of my bees.
It will be interesting to see how many mites are killed after your treatment :)
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Jen, I'm thinking of purchasing the set up you have for treating. I know you have one of those vaporizers, but what do you use for medication?
Perry how do you treat for varoa mites?
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I have gone with the Mite Away Quick Strips the last 3 falls. I also have a Varrox oxalic acid vapourizer to use as a "finisher" in case the formic doesn't do its thing (due to weather/temp).
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2Fihtfya9jf%2FTrivia_003.jpg&hash=6f785b284cef431174df4b3b93516223bfc76ed4) (http://postimg.cc/image/ihtfya9jf/)
Oxalic acid really only works during broodless periods (late fall) but if used multiple times it can be effective as well so I understand. From an efficiency point of view that would work for a hobbyist with a few hives, but for me multiple visits is not at all efficient.
I have never treated in the spring simply because of my concern for potential contamination if treatment periods run too close to my adding supers for a flow.
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I treated my hives the other day with oxalic acid vapor. I checked my nite drop today. All hives are ok for now. I will treat again in June. I probably will have some mites. I treat again in august and treat one more time before I wrap the hives for the winter.
Marion
look at the date on your formic pads. If there out of date don’t use it. You can harm your queen.
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Oxalic Acid is what you want to buy 99.6 % pure. You can get it at most hardware stores and some say they found it at their pharmacy. I have read to not use Wood Bleach, that it may contain other additives that could harm the bees. I bought mine thru Amazon.com.
This is a picture of Oxalic Acid just for you to see, but it's not the one I bought thru Amazon
http://shop.chemicalstore.com/navigation/detail.asp?id=OX014D
I do three treatments, 3 sundays in a row. That covers the 21 day hatching period of brood. It's real easy, it doesn't faze the bees in any way and there is no concern that it will harm the queen. On top of that Oxalic Acid also treats for tracheal mites, a double bonus.
I have screen bottom boards, and slide the sticky board under it, it's there all year long, I check it every couple weeks or so, when I have ten mites on the board I treat :)
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I went into the hive and moved a couple of frames around so that 2 unworked frames were at the outer edge of both of my deeps. There are about 4 frames of honey in each deep. I noticed that the unworked frame that I had placed next to the brood ball a week ago was about 1/3 worked on one side. I was going to move that frame furthur out but since they like it I left it there. I saw pollen in the hive and more coming in. I did not see any eggs or larva yet. I did not see the queen.
I placed two MAQS strips between the two deeps and took the honey super off until next week. They don't need it yet and I don't want to contaminate it.
RayR852 - Thanks for the heads up. The MAQS strips actually expired last month, but I used them because I have nothing else at this time. Will keep that in mind in the future. I may buy the vaporizer and oxalic acid for my next treatment.
Thanks Jen for the info.
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Jen, Amazon looks like they are getting away from selling the oxalic acid. Ebay has it but I'm worried it might not be the right stuff. It says 99.6% pure and it removes rust etc. Does that sound right?
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I sure hope Amazon will still keep it on with oxalic acid being approved in the US now.
I'm seeing if link works
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=oxalic+acid+for+beekeeping#/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_12?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=oxalic+acid+vaporizer&sprefix=oxalic+acid+%2Caps%2C372&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aoxalic+acid+vaporizer
Okay, it works, as long as it says 99% it fine. You'll only need a 2 pound bag, it doesn't take very much oa for the treatment, like 1/2 tsp maybe.
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The wood bleach I bought at Lowe's lumber says 100% oxalic acid. I don't know why it wouldn't work if 99.6% will.
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When you enter in 99.6% pure those items that show may not be offered again on Amazon. I ordered a 1 lb bag of 99% from the site you provided, Jen. I also orderd a varocleaner Vaporizer from OxaVap. I'll be ready, only wished I had put more thought into it before now. My queen will be held up for a week and i hope she survives the MAQS strips.
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Let us all know how the varocleaner works if you would please?
I have the Varrox Vaporizor and really like it, but it is a bit pricy.. There is some information on using OAV here;
http://www.outyard.net/treatments.html
Randy Oliver has some good info on his site as well. The Oxavap site you probably already know about. If you havent read all the info they have it is some good reading.
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I used MAQS before the OA vap purchase, and everything was just fine. It would be my second choice now :)
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Jen, I would not bee so quick to dismiss Oxalic acid vapour as harmless to the bees. It is in fact fairly toxic at the concentrations required to kill mites. Some eggs and open brood may be killed and the adult bees may also suffer minor tissue damage. Of all the organic acids, Oxalic has the largest gap in toxicity to the mites versus the bees, but it is toxic to both. I would also be willing to bet that mites will become resistant to OA treatments over time. Every time you treat it's the mites with the thickest carapace that will survive. Give it a decade or two and you'll see. Don't get me wrong, I think that oxalic is the best treatment available right now, but it's not a magic bullet.
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Hi Pete ~ Now you just had to go and make it complicated ~ siiiiiiiigh rolling eyes ~ ;) :D kidding
But thank you for this last sentence:
"Don't get me wrong, I think that oxalic is the best treatment available right now, but it's not a magic bullet"
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pete's not making it complicated jen, no need to sigh and roll your eyes..........pete is probably right, and it is not a magic bullet. nothing is. that's a fact.
"Jen, I would not bee so quick to dismiss Oxalic acid vapour as harmless to the bees. It is in fact fairly toxic at the concentrations required to kill mites. Some eggs and open brood may be killed and the adult bees may also suffer minor tissue damage. Of all the organic acids, Oxalic has the largest gap in toxicity to the mites versus the bees, but it is toxic to both. I would also be willing to bet that mites will become resistant to OA treatments over time. Every time you threat it's the mites with the thickest carapace that will survive. Give it a decade or two and you'll see. Don't get me wrong, I think that oxalic is the best treatment available right now, but it's not a magic bullet."
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I do not "believe" ppete is right, but that does not mean I am right either.. From everything I have read, watched and heard, OAV is benign/harmless to the bees. So I would like to see some data? Some research? Anything that states what he just did? I do believe OAV is a magic bullet..
OA Dribble is MOST definitely not a magic bullet, it damages the bees because they ingest it;
Do not be in the “If a little’s good, a lot would be better” mentality with oxalic. It (drench) can be rough if over applied to the winter cluster, and is rough on the brood in the summer colony. However, be aware that most other treatments also affect the brood (amitraz, formic, thymol), queens (coumaphos), or drones (fluvalinate).
But as stated, I have yet to find any reference to problems the OA vapor causes the bees?? In some of the studies they treated bees every week for three months and they showed no ill effects what so ever. If the OAV harmed bees or brood wouldnt being treated so often have wiped out the colony hands down? Much less left them mite free and thriving?
From Randy Olivers site;
Radetzki didn’t note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.
It is good to know if what you are doing has risks. I have not found any for OAV Yet.. I have seen other statements that claim how "bad" OAV is, both for the beekeeper, and the bees, and so far they have all been pretty easy to disprove through researching.... That does not mean I am right and OAV is the golden ticket. It only means I have not found (or seen) any concrete evidence to that claim. Entirely possible since some information comes from people who have a vested interest in OAV being a good thing.
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The only concern I have with oxalic acid. Its very corrosive. Will it destroy my screen bottom board or eat away at the nail heads on my frames. I protect myself with an N-95 mask. I can treat at any time when the temp is above 40 degrees. My opinion its the best product to treat for mites right now. It works if you know how to use it the right way.
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Marion
look at the date on your formic pads. If there out of date don’t use it. You can harm your queen.
Ray,
I posted some info last year about MAQS. I had spoken to the manufacturer and they informed me that the MAQS pads are labelled for 1 year... BUT, if you freeze them, they will last for years. She compared them to candy bars, oddly enough. I believe Marion had commented in that thread... hopefully she remembered to freeze them. However, also according to the manufacturer, the only downside to them aging NOT in the freezer is that the potency dissipates, they said nothing about becoming harmful to the queen. It is common for the queen to stop laying for a few days with the introduction of MAQS into the hive, but have you smelled the stuff? I don't recommend it! I'd stop laying, in protest, if someone made my house smell like that! BTW, don't try it... it burns your nose and can't possibly be good for you!
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i am not dishing OAV scott, i guess it depends on how one defines a magic bullet. it's just my opinion, any chemicals we use to treat mites with is not a magic or a silver bullet, because we have to keep treating the bees with whatever chemical, and when the mites develop resistance to one, we move to another.
Randy Oliver ~ IPM 1 Fighting Varroa 1: The Silver Bullet, or Brass Knuckles? (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-the-silver-bullet-or-brass-knuckles-2/)
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I wanted to order a year supply from betterbee. They told me don’t use it past the expiration date. At my bee club meeting. We had a few ask the same question. They told us don’t use it past the date. It could harm the queen. This stuff will burn your eyes and lungs. I wear safety classes and an N-95 mask. Formic acid and oxalic acid is very dangerous stuff to use. You have to protect yourself when you use it.
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Ray,
Your club and supplier weren't wrong in advising you incorrectly... I'm assuming simply repeating what they were told. I had (accidentally) placed my oversized order from Mann Lake. When I was working with them over the phone, their information was also limited. I needed further clarification of a few things that I just wasn't sure of or didn't understand, so I called the Manufacturer. I had an incredibly helpful & informative conversation with them. It was well worth the call... Especially considering I ordered WAAAAY more than I apparently needed!
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No, I did not freeze it, so the treatment may not be as effective as it should. I've had it since the fall. The package was sealed in its cellophane inside its plastic tub in the dark. It still had a serious odor you do not want to breathe. I think I may have treated just in time because the bees have just started bringing in pollen and I did not see any eggs or larva in there. I doubt if I will be using these MAQS strips again. I don't like stopping the queen from her doing her business and I definitely do not want to harm her.
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Not all queens stop when it is applied. I would not totally give up on the product, just consider it as one of the arsenal of choice in your IPM strategy. Using the same thing over and over is where problems can start. I like Pistolpete's analogy that mites with hardened shells will be the only ones surviving to breed if OA is used repeatedly. Mix it up as much as you can.
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Ray- "Formic acid and oxalic acid is very dangerous stuff to use. You have to protect yourself when you use it.
Does this mean we have to stop eating all these foods, because they all have oxalic acid in them...
http://healthyonraw.com/should-we-eat-greens-high-in-oxalic-acid/
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Marion, where did you order it from. I've been looking around and the first few places I found have nearly a month long lead time!
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Cpnobvious, I ordered the oxalic acid from amazon.com. It is 99% pure and I used the link above that Jenn provided. I bought one pound.
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And the vaporizer?
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The vaporizer was from a site called OxaVap. It was $125. Unfortunately, the actual web site did not print out on the receipt, but if you google it you should find it without a problem. It might still be in my emails. I'll look.
Perry, good advice about mixing it up with the treatments. I think the MAQS strips would be better in the fall and the vapor in the spring.
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The site is oxavap.com.
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Jen
oxalic acid vapor is very dangerous to our health if we don’t protect our self when we work with it. The good lord gave me one set of lungs. When there gone I’m done or carry and oxygen tank around with me. N-95 paper mask is the smart way working with this stuff. Its cheaper to buy the mask than see a doctor. Work safe.
Marion
I bought 5lbs from ebay for 15 dollars.
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While we are touching the subject of MAQS treatments, does anyone have any experience with one strip applications (meaning, a half dose to knock down a mite population until a better time to treat)?
In my view, a queen's genetics relative to mite tolerance or hygienic activities is the best first line of defense against varroatosis. My view will treat mites and change queens until I get to the point that no further treatment is necessary, all the time using IPM principles. I do not ever plan to use fluvalinate, coumaphos or any other synthetic insecticide in my hives. Not saying that is what you should do, just my view on the subject.
I grafted from a VSH breeder queen last year. The colonies headed by the F-1 daughters of that breeder queen have very low mite counts (so far), the others aren't far behind. I trust mite counts using powdered sugar or alcohol rolls and not mite drops. The last early spring roll we did had 458 bees and five mites.
Keep posting Marion, I enjoy seeing and hearing your progress. :-)
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Evaporation of oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?;
Result; All measurements clearly underneath exposure limit.
Based upon the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic acid treatments during the whole year, 40 hours a week without damaging his health.
The above statements can be found in the PDF Document found at;
www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en
I can only assume that means wearing a mask like Ray4852 mentions..
I am not against anyone dicing OAV Mrs. River.. But when they do I would like to see the reasons/research that made them dislike it and recommend against using it, if nothing else for my own safety and concerns.. At this point most of what I have read places a big glowing halo over it as a treatment..
As far as Varroa building immunity... as I understand.. it kills the mites or they dont get it on/in them it penetrates soft body parts, joints etc.. If they dont get it on/in they dont die, if they do they do die, so they cant build any type of immunity....... JUST what I have read... I have read some negative things, but so far, none of those negative things have been backed up by any of the research, which is quite unusual in the world of beekeeping... I am expecting sooner or later the silver bullet will be proven to have a lead core.
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" I am not against anyone dicing OAV Mrs. River.. But when they do I would like to see the reasons/research that made them dislike it and recommend against using it, if nothing else for my own safety and concerns.. At this point most of what I have read places a big glowing halo over it as a treatment.."
i am not against it scott, and didn't 'dice' it. i agreed with pete because of what he said, and tend to think as he said, that in time oxalic acid will follow along the path of the history of mite treatments.............the mites at some point will most likely develop a resistance to it, then what?
and to what lee said,
"In my view, a queen's genetics relative to mite tolerance or hygienic activities is the best first line of defense against varroatosis. My view will treat mites and change queens until I get to the point that no further treatment is necessary, all the time using IPM principles. I do not ever plan to use fluvalinate, coumaphos or any other synthetic insecticide in my hives."
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I understand.., that was a reply to this post in part..;
i am not dishing OAV scott, i guess it depends on how one defines a magic bullet. it's just my opinion, any chemicals we use to treat mites with is not a magic or a silver bullet, because we have to keep treating the bees with whatever chemical, and when the mites develop resistance to one, we move to another.
Randy Oliver ~ IPM 1 Fighting Varroa 1: The Silver Bullet, or Brass Knuckles? (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-the-silver-bullet-or-brass-knuckles-2/)
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okay i give scott.
never said i disliked OAV. never discouraged anyone from using it or not recommended the use of it. i have never used it, and never wore a mask to a apply it........ ;D
it's simple...mite treatments alone, irregardless of what we use are not a magic or silver bullet, and at some point, i do think there is a possiblitly that the mites will become resistant to it, as with other treatments.
sorry, i guess i am missing the point?
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Lee- "While we are touching the subject of MAQS treatments, does anyone have any experience with one strip applications (meaning, a half dose to knock down a mite population until a better time to treat)?
Yes I did, a 1/2 treatment or 1 pad, before purchasing my OAV. I talked to a commercial beek in the area first. They use only one pad and get good results. I used the one MAQS pad for the seven days, and it knocked down approx 2,000 mites. The person that i was working with at the time said to get a MAQS pad on my hive NOW! (bees were in trouble) and then order the OAV and continue from there. I would do it again if need be. But it showed me that one pad is enough.... boy! that is some stinky stuff.
Lee- "I trust mite counts using powdered sugar or alcohol rolls and not mite drops.
I tried both of these methods before I went with the sticky board count. They work fine and I think they are dependable. Frankly, I don't want to kill a cups worth of bees in an alcohol wash to do a mite count. Sugar is messy and attract ants. So, I'm happy with my sticky boards :) ;)
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Jen - thanks for the report of success with a half dose of MAQS! I've never used MAQS, but have several frozen in reserve.
For a comparison of powder sugar roll and alcohol counts, we used sample of 458 bees (a misestimation of 300 bees ;-) ), the powdered sugar roll revealed five mites. Then, we added windshield washer fluid to the same batch of bees. the fluid did not reveal more mites, not one more. So, the powdered sugar roll is pretty good and you can put the bees back into the hive. Several scientific people, Randy Oliver for example, have concluded the mite drop counts as less than optimal. Many are moving away from screened bottom boards as well, so the mite drops are not very easy then.
> >I am wondering if screen bottom boards are worth the extra since
> I typically do the "wash" method for testing for Varroa.
I came to the same conclusion. SBBs are necessary when one uses sticky
boards or is doing powdered sugar dusting. Both of those lost favor with
me, at which point the problems with screened bottoms outweighed the
benefits. We've been rotating our screened bottoms out of our operation.
--
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com
Not trying to pick a fight here, just sharing an evolving point of view. If screened bottom boards and mite drop work for you, GREAT! The driving force encouraging us to switch back to solid bottom boards is our daily 30-40 degree temperature fluxuations in early spring. The solid bottom boards allow bees to keep the brood nest warm and get brood rearing going earlier in spring, resulting in a larger population for our spring flow, which has already begun. (It also gives larger populations for swarm season, so one needs to be vigilant on that front as well). :-)
Marion, do you have anything to report after your treatments?
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If i think i have a mite problem i use HBH with a Thyme oil mix in 1 to 1 sugar water, I then pour this in over a plastic box of cut mop strands and let it soak for a day or two. I then put 3 strands over every other frame in the brood boxes, i do this twice in the spring and once in the fall. Yes Squirt i'm an old Redneck with a touch of weird Irish blood :D. I didn't do it last year and lost more hives than i ever have, but we had a weird winter also, so i can't say not using my treatment was the cause? I forgot to mention that when the girls start dragging the mop strands out the front door is when i give them another round. This is just what i do and i think it works for me? So don't think it's the magic bullet. 8) Jack
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Hi Lee :) hubby designed this bottom board for me. It is a screen bottom board with a vented drawer underneath. So when the drawer is closed it works like a vented bottom board. When I pull out the drawer I can see what's going on in my hive. I have found the sticky board to be a valuable source of information. So, far I haven't had any wax moths in my hives, the moths and larvae get stuck on the sticky board before they can enter the hive. I did the first of three OA treatments last Sunday, I open the drawer and can see that I have well over 1,000 mite kill. This method works so nicely for me ;)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2Fdyb38p4un%2FDSCF2278.jpg&hash=48cd47636e5f56aa3495c195f0b739ea2dfd46a7) (http://postimg.cc/image/dyb38p4un/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2Fw52ktwvkf%2FDSCF2280.jpg&hash=9a220d94dbb3c50c617253f2b9dcc9175f6d7fd0) (http://postimg.cc/image/w52ktwvkf/)
PS Jen is not a fighter, she's an Oooomer ;D
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2F6chf5izf3%2Fmeditator.jpg&hash=d537d18a319e2e30772d784b7976de1c10943052) (http://postimg.cc/image/6chf5izf3/)
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Pretty nifty Jen, your design would keep some heat in the hive at times it is beneficial too. :)
I like the idea of wax moths stumbling and sticking on the sticky board!!!
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"just sharing an evolving point of view. If screened bottom boards and mite drop work for you, GREAT! The driving force encouraging us to switch back to solid bottom boards is our daily 30-40 degree temperature fluxuations in early spring. The solid bottom boards allow bees to keep the brood nest warm and get brood rearing going earlier in spring, resulting in a larger population for our spring flow, which has already begun. (It also gives larger populations for swarm season, so one needs to be vigilant on that front as well). :-)
........ Many are moving away from screened bottom boards as well"
i would agree with lee about the solid bottom boards, with that said,i have never used the sbb's. to what lee said, i have read a number of articles relative to a number of beeks moving away from these, or using them in summer months in the south primarily, and replacing with solids for winter months.
"If i think i have a mite problem i use HBH with a Thyme oil mix in 1 to 1 sugar water, I then pour this in over a plastic box of cut mop strands and let it soak for a day or two. I then put 3 strands over every other frame in the brood boxes"
jack what's your irish recipe for this? amount of Hbh, amount of Thyme oil? how did you ever come up with this? just curious.
lee mentioned the powder sugar roll, attached are two sets of instructions from the university of minnesota, the 2nd one uses a 'gizmo', you can buy it or make one yourself, i think the u of m has plans for this as well. the first method does work well.
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It's really not my recipe, i got it from Alpha6 (Dave) on another forum several years ago. His recipe is.
1 teaspoon thyme oil
1 teaspoon lemongrass oil
4 cups water
4 cups sugar
1/2 teaspoon of lecitain- put it in 1/4 cup of water and let soak over night, strain it to remove any flakes. Then mix the two oils in it to make it mix with the sugar syrup.
He made bigger batches and used a garden sprayer to spray on each frame, bees and all twice in the spring two weeks apart and once in the fall. Being a redneck i went with the home made HBH recipe and put thyme oil in it and used the mop head cotton strands soaked in it and laid it over the brood frames, this way it worked 24/7 and i didn't have to take every frame out to spray them. You can also feed it to the bees. Jack
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thanks jack!
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Screened bottom boards and natural drops are effective to a degree if a few other things are followed. I helped a fellow a few years ago that had booming hives that were collapsing but had really low mite count on his bottom boards. When we tore his hives apart it was quite obvious what had happened. He had so much burr comb in there from not going through regularly that mites couldn't have fallen through to the bottom board even if they wanted to. I almost needed a cold chisel to get some of that stuff apart.
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On a similar vein, I had a couple of hives where the ants were carrying away all the mites. Only when I added oil to the boards did I start to get accurate counts.