Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: crazy8days on April 17, 2015, 10:11:44 am
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I was reading what was posted last season on excluders or not. I have always used them. Had a couple queens last year find their way up through them which wrecked my honey harvest for those hives. Last year I went to using mediums for my supers. So, without the excluders on I let them build them up. Then I placed my excluders once drawn. This season can I place my excluders on, then a drawn super. On top of that one that isn't drawn out yet. Will they draw it out?
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You know from our previous conversation where I stand...I use them. I never had a problem with them drawing the comb. However, every yard has its particular variables. I think if you don't mind having a sacrificial box (basically a third brood chamber) it's grand to exclude the excluders. This will create some buffer for the honey barrier to appear.
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yes they will draw it out when needed as long as your first box above the exluder is drawn comb
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SO how do you get them to build foundationless, or build out foundation, in a honey super if you don't want to risk her highness laying in there? While I'll only be able to try to get honey from 2 hives this year, everything is either going to be foundationless or virgin foundation... No excluder and take the risks?
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"Then I placed my excluders once drawn. This season can I place my excluders on, then a drawn super. On top of that one that isn't drawn out yet. Will they draw it out?"
like rat said crazy yes they will. you could also consider placing the undrawn super on first, (without excluder), when its drawn, place excluder back on and add your additional drawn super as needed.
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So if I'm understanding all this right, it's a bad idea to put on an excluder and then nothing but undrawn foundation above it? I was going to do that this year since I don't have any old drawn foundation to work with. Will they refuse to draw it out?
Another alternative might be to allow them to mostly draw one super, and then put a queen excluder beneath it and another super (or two) on top of that. Only thing there is I would have to be very careful not to trap the queen above the excluder, in case she wanders up there once the comb is drawn.
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So if I'm understanding all this right, it's a bad idea to put on an excluder and then nothing but undrawn foundation above it? I was going to do that this year since I don't have any old drawn foundation to work with. Will they refuse to draw it out?
Another alternative might be to allow them to mostly draw one super, and then put a queen excluder beneath it and another super (or two) on top of that. Only thing there is I would have to be very careful not to trap the queen above the excluder, in case she wanders up there once the comb is drawn.
Its hard to get the bees to draw foundation placed directly above the excluder. your 2nd alternative will work. Once they have a good start on drawing out the foundation you can put the exluder on.
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I haven't used an excluder. Probably beginners luck last year, but I never had the queen go up top. I figured that if she did, I just wouldn't use that frame. I do crush and strain and my thought was that any frame that had brood in it would be put back on the hive with the empty frames from crush and strain. The bees would clean them up and the brood would emerge and hopefully, I would then have a drawn frame for the next time......in theory.
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I have found that a hole in the super, or a notch in the inner cover will help speed the process of getting the supers drawn.. Gives them a way in and out without going through the excluder.
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"So if I'm understanding all this right, it's a bad idea to put on an excluder and then nothing but undrawn foundation above it? "
yes.
"I was going to do that this year since I don't have any old drawn foundation to work with. Will they refuse to draw it out?"
best results, excluder left off.
"Another alternative might be to allow them to mostly draw one super, and then put a queen excluder beneath it and another super (or two) on top of that. Only thing there is I would have to be very careful not to trap the queen above the excluder, in case she wanders up there once the comb is drawn."
timing, when the foundation is drawn then place the excluder on. even if you happen to get behind and the queen lays up in it, just make sure shes not up there, place an excluder on. the bees will take care of the brood in that super and when all has hatched, the bees turn it back into honey storage.
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I personally don't use a honey excluder (whoops Queen Excluder)
I use it in queen rearing to confine the queen in a timing box so I'll know exactly how old the larva is.
That's all I use them for is to restrict the queens ability move around the hive.
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I personally don't use a honey excluder (whoops Queen Excluder)
I use it in queen rearing to confine the queen in a timing box so I'll know exactly how old the larva is.
That's all I use them for is to restrict the queens ability move around the hive.
Capt... I know you did not say that ;D I have several, they are all laying on the ground covered in leaves.... hope I don't trip on them ;)
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I have been known to use a queen excluder under the brood box when hiving a swarm to ensure they stay put. They stayed, but I don't know if it was because of the excluder. I like to think it is.
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I use them especially for comb honey if not for anything else 8). I also use them for honey production, but like stated above i put bait frames above them.They are good for raising queens and two queen colonies.Like many beekeeping tools, it's knowing how and when to use them. Jack
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I have been known to use a queen excluder under the brood box when hiving a swarm to ensure they stay put. They stayed, but I don't know if it was because of the excluder. I like to think it is.
slowm that is not an excluder.... you just invented the includer :laugh: It is a handy tip used by some for with swarms.... but not for a long period.
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I have been known to use a queen excluder under the brood box when hiving a swarm to ensure they stay put. They stayed, but I don't know if it was because of the excluder. I like to think it is.
I guess I should have heeded my own advice. I went out today to take the swarm box out of the tree and start moving it towards the bee yard and when I too the top off, there was only three or four bees crawling around inside snooping around. I guess they decided they didn't like it there. :sad:
So I just set the hive box on some cinder blocks at the bottom of the tree and put another q-tip with lemongrass oil inside. There was one bee sitting in the entrance fanning and buzzing up a storm. So who knows? Bees sure can be peculiar!
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I have been known to use a queen excluder under the brood box when hiving a swarm to ensure they stay put. They stayed, but I don't know if it was because of the excluder. I like to think it is.
slowm that is not an excluder.... you just invented the includer :laugh: It is a handy tip used by some for with swarms.... but not for a long period.
Yep, the last time i did that, I just left it on for a few days. I should have used it this time. See my other post.
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"That's all I use them for is to restrict the queens ability move around the hive."
that's what i use them for capt44, to restrict the queens ability to mess up my comb honey and honey supers.......... :D
what jack said........ ;D
"I use them especially for comb honey if not for anything else. I also use them for honey production, but like stated above i put bait frames above them.They are good for raising queens and two queen colonies.Like many beekeeping tools, it's knowing how and when to use them. Jack"
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So if I'm understanding all this right, it's a bad idea to put on an excluder and then nothing but undrawn foundation above it? I was going to do that this year since I don't have any old drawn foundation to work with. Will they refuse to draw it out?
At some point every new beekeeper has to start with undrawn foundation in their supers. It will take a strong nectar flow for them to draw it out, but they will do it. Once done, I always put drawn foundation on first then undrawn foundation on top of that. If I have 2 or more supers with drawn foundation I will put multiples on at the same time. That works in this part of the country anyway. Some beekeepers don't like excluders, but I have always used them.
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I pretty much use excluder (in the specific use of rearing a honey crop) much in the same way described in Jerry Hayes very dated article 'is a queen excluder a honey excluder'. How I place new space above the excluder is largely dependent on whether I am have comb or foundation in the box added. this pretty much describes how I do things >
a riverbee snip...
'you could also consider placing the undrawn super on first, (without excluder), when its drawn, place excluder back on and add your additional drawn super as needed.'
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With all the different types of excluders out there which one is mostly used? I have the all metal type.
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I pretty much use excluder (in the specific use of rearing a honey crop) much in the same way described in Jerry Hayes very dated article 'is a queen excluder a honey excluder'. How I place new space above the excluder is largely dependent on whether I am have comb or foundation in the box added. this pretty much describes how I do things >
a riverbee snip...
'you could also consider placing the undrawn super on first, (without excluder), when its drawn, place excluder back on and add your additional drawn super as needed.'
I goggled and found the link... it was written long before my beekeeping days. In my time period I have never heard Jerry speak on anything but AHB. An interesting read and it seems the one limited study pointed in the direction that queen excluders are honey excluders if not used properly. Thanks for the direct tecumseh.
I have posted a link for easy reference: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
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Well, in the end I decided not to use a queen excluder. They're pretty solidly filling the frames in the top box with nectar, so I figure she won't pass that to get to the supers. I'm not taking that top box anyway, so as long as she doesn't go any higher I think I'm okay.
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Well, in the end I decided not to use a queen excluder. They're pretty solidly filling the frames in the top box with nectar, so I figure she won't pass that to get to the supers. I'm not taking that top box anyway, so as long as she doesn't go any higher I think I'm okay.
Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.
Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???
Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.
Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:( My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.
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Good post, SC. That's why I don't use excluders.
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Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.
Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???
Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.
Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:( My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.
Well I think she has plenty of space. Two brood boxes, both mostly full of brood frames. The top box (third box, that is) is mostly nectar.
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CapnObvious asks: (in post #3)
SO how do you get them to build foundationless, or build out foundation, in a honey super if you don't want to risk her highness laying in there?
Beware of trying to get foundationless combs built in a honey super-----it can almost be guaranteed to be built as drone comb. If you want to be sure that you get worker combs built foundationlessly, the job must be done in the brood box. In other words, if you want frames built in a honey super with worker cells, you must use worker cell foundation or else have them built in the brood box.
Like it or not, the only way you can be (almost) positive that the queen won't lay in your honey super is if you use a queen excluder.
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Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.
Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???
Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.
Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:( My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.
Well I think she has plenty of space. Two brood boxes, both mostly full of brood frames. The top box (third box, that is) is mostly nectar.
Actually the comment was directed in your direction... I am old but did not see you reference the number of boxes but then again you were not the OP right ;) And you may have it all taken care off. No harm intended...
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I do not use full time excluders. When it is time to take the honey and I find larva in the supers I will put an empty frame in the brood box an install an excluder under the super until the larva hatches. This seems to work for me.
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My mentor does not run excluders, probably is why I have never bothered. He pulls his supers and while extracting he removes any frames with brood he finds and places them in a box near the window of the honey house that the bees brought in with the supers use an an escape. He continues to add to the stray brood frames to the boxes as season progresses. More times than not the bees raise a queen and he ends up with another hive :)
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""I goggled and found the link... it was written long before my beekeeping days. In my time period I have never heard Jerry speak on anything but AHB. An interesting read and it seems the one limited study pointed in the direction that queen excluders are honey excluders if not used properly. Thanks for the direct tecumseh.
I have posted a link for easy reference: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/""
SC-Bee this was a great article, thanks for digging it up.
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a snip...
it was written long before my beekeeping days...
yes but not before some of us begin playing with bees. I do seem to recall Jerry used his initial on that article and it took me quite some time to connect Jerry with Gerald. I am saddened to have to send you over to BS to find that fine article. If you read the article closely and reflect on the data in the article a queen excluder if use properly with a top entrance and a closed bottom entrance can also 'marginally' enhance the honey crop and discourage skunk predation. I should mention here that prior to the time I ran across this old article I largely believed that a queen excluder was a honey excluder based largely on conversation I had with two of my prior commercial beekeeping employers.
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I do not use full time excluders. When it is time to take the honey and I find larva in the supers I will put an empty frame in the brood box an install an excluder under the super until the larva hatches. This seems to work for me.
:yes: :yes: :yes:
Me too.
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a snip...
it was written long before my beekeeping days...
yes but not before some of us begin playing with bees. I do seem to recall Jerry used his initial on that article and it took me quite some time to connect Jerry with Gerald. I am saddened to have to send you over to BS to find that fine article. If you read the article closely and reflect on the data in the article a queen excluder if use properly with a top entrance and a closed bottom entrance can also 'marginally' enhance the honey crop and discourage skunk predation. I should mention here that prior to the time I ran across this old article I largely believed that a queen excluder was a honey excluder based largely on conversation I had with two of my prior commercial beekeeping employers.
Oh I understand totally. I remember you well from some other forums. A screen name easy to pick up on. My mentor is 85 now and I have been at it only for a short decade in comparison but will not meet you guys years because of a late start :) I nver new Jerry was a Gerald, but have heard him speak multiple time at Clemson meetings. Jerry has always been rather entertaining as compared to most, if that is any comparison. I also like to hear Jamie Ellis.m I think Jamie tool Jerrys place at FSU when Jerry moved over to USDA or Dept of Ag with the AHB thing.
And I understand about the other forum thing.... don't go there often. But someone thanked me for posting the article, but again I thank you for referring to it. I did read it close because I am considering trying some with an upper entrance. I also have a Sundance pollen trap I bought over five years ago that has not been on a hive. The upper entrances would make the conversion easy if I wanted o try it. So I leave you with a question. What kind of top entrance do you use? I am all thumbs with wood work but, what are you shim depths?
Edited- Made a visit and I see it is penned G. W. Hayes Jr. and looks like he was with or either wrote it for Dadant. I heard him also say he had worked for I believe FDA as he mentioned visiting third world meat processing plants.
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Hey tec, how would closing the bottom entrance, put a queen excluder above the brood box and a top entrance above the super work for swarm prevention? They would have to really slim the queen down to go anywhere ??? Jack
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The swarm would leave while you were cleaning out the hundreds of dead drones. :laugh: :laugh:
There's one in every crowd ;D
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Good one iddee, i forgot about the boys. :laugh: Jack
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Good one iddee, i forgot about the boys. :laugh: Jack
Yep it would work great if everyone did it... no drones to mate with ;)
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So I read the article that sc-bee posted from Jerry Hayes in 1983 about queen excluder/honey excluder. I'm really curious about using the top entrance. I have the standard 8 frame medium Langstroth hives with the bottom entrance and screen bottoms. I read all winter about using a top entrance for ventilation/moisture control. I can see that a top entrance would help with ventilation in the summer as well. Those of you who use top entrances, did you drill a hole in the top of a super, or did your hives come that way? I'm wondering if that is something I should consider doing. Are there disadvantages I'm not thinking about?
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I run a bottom and top entrance year round and have for the last 15 to 20 years. 8) I keep a top feeder on all my hives year round also that has a 3/8 in. shim tacked to the bottom of them except for a 1 and a 1/2 in. gap on the front for a top entrance. I'm also getting my hives back to two deep brood boxes where i can put a queen excluder on top of before i put supers on, this way the workers can go in to the top with nectar and i have found it does increase honey production for me when the flow is on. The only draw back i've had is that you have to keep watch if a drought is on because it can encourage robbers. This is just what i do, and has worked for me, it may not work for you. (Location) Jack
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I also use a top entrance year round. I used the notch in the inner cover to start out with, and then started building the reversible inner covers with a 1 inch notch in them.. I also typically dont remove the entrance reducer. I leave it with the 3 inch opening side down unless it is going to be one of those summers where it decides we need to be 105 degrees for three months.
The bees come and go at both entrances. I put an excluder on if I find a queen that wants to go up top. she gets moved down and the the excluder goes on. Normally the queens remain where they belong, but every so often.. there is that recalcitrant female that thinks she HAS to do things her way... ;D
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a Jack snip...
Hey tec, how would closing the bottom entrance, put a queen excluder above the brood box and a top entrance above the super work for swarm prevention? They would have to really slim the queen down to go anywhere.
tecumseh..
I have always cheated here and do leave a very small bottom entry. as far as LIMITING swarming what you notice in the primary brood nest is several things.... 1) the field bees do not pass thru the brood nest and therefore do not crowd the brood nest when they come and go and 2) they also tend to deposit nectar above the excluder and therefore don't back fill the brood nest with incoming nectar. < both of these changes should limit swarming somewhat.
I use top entrance all year long and most of these are built into my modified migratory covers. in some hives without these I build upper entrances by using building shims place between upper super bodies.