Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: mamapoppybee on January 01, 2014, 12:53:32 pm
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my best friends father in law my have some used hives that i could get into for start up. I would like to know if this route is a good idea bad idea?
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Are they just the used hive bodies and tops and bottoms or does it also include used comb. The main issue for me would be the possibility of the presence of American Foul Brood spores. They can remain viable reportedly for 80 years. Even though I trusted the person I might question their ability to properly identify the signs of AFB scale on comb. If you do have someone inspect it, do so where it is, not at your place.
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If you can talk to him and discuss the history of the equipment and fell comfotable AFB was not an issue then I don't see a problem. Although AFB can be an issue with used equipment, I think the concern is often blown way out of proportion. But to play it safe, I would probably suggest using new frames and foundation. For the rest of the woodenware, a good scrubbing with lye or burning the insides with a torch will give some added protection from diseases being an issue.
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That's what I do. I will scorch hive bodies, tops, etc. but I avoid used frames and comb altogether.
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So do a surface char? or just afew good passes to get the heat on them to kill stuff. can charning the sides cause bee to reject and swarm?
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Hey, if it's in good condition, free is free. Hive components are expensive. But, I do scorch with a small torch like Perry. Yeap, to your last post. I just run over the surfaces.
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I dont think the char smell any worse than our smokers and must be better than that gas tank someone showed with bees in it ::)
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Scorch or singe well. I like to see the wood just start to cook.
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hay i liked the gas tank hive lol. So whats the succes rate with this procedure?
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So do a surface char? or just afew good passes to get the heat on them to kill stuff. can charning the sides cause bee to reject and swarm?
Surface char. If I have a lot to do, I will stack the empty hive bodies as high as I can and throw some crumpled news paper inside and light it. Let the chimney affect work for you. When they are charred enough just push the stack over to put it out.
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bee keeps rocket stove niffty!
C:-)
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mama- there are youtubes on scorching hives as well. Good idea to not use the frames or foundations, buy new ones.
fyi- my second year my mentor sent me home with a new hive full of frames and bees and a queen, 6 weeks later American Foul Brood. Had to burn it, bees and all. I was disgusted and heart broken.
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Jaybird... this would suggest to me that somewhere fairly near to your location you have an active infestation point for AFB. AFB from what the lab folks tell us is now considered to be fairly rare.
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First, all the above posts are true, Especially Robo's and the blown out of proportion.
You asked what the success rate is. I would say without lye wash or scorching, and with using frames and all, the success rate in most areas is 98% or better. I have never done anything but use the used equipment and my success rate is 100%.
Yes, AFB can be spread and it can lay dormant for a lifetime, but the truth is, most hives in the USA have a few spores of it. It's not a danger until it gets a foothold and takes over. The few spores you may get with used equip. will likely never show it's ugly head.
Now, having said that, use what precautions you feel you should, and also consider the price. Most used equip. is either given away, or almost so.
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Iddee, I would have thought you would be recommending extra diligence regarding AFB even if the odds are remote.
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Sorry, Crofter, but IMHO, if I were that cautious, I would never go onto a public highway again in a vehicle. I think the chance of me being killed is greater than the chance of getting AFB from used equip., even tho both chances are certainly a possibility. In 35 plus years of beekeeping and visiting beekeepers, some commercial, I have only seen AFB once, and it was in established hives which had been established for years, not new installs in used equip.
That being said, I will repeat my often stated fact, beekeeping is very localized. If there are many known instances of AFB in your area, I would expect you to be much more cautious.
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Tecumseh ~ "Jaybird... this would suggest to me that somewhere fairly near to your location you have an active infestation point for AFB. AFB from what the lab folks tell us is now considered to be fairly rare."
I figured the AFB came from the bee yard I purchased them from. Another fellow went with me and purchased a complete hive as well and he had AFB too. He lives two miles from me. We both lost our hives.
Let's see, that was two seasons ago and neither of us have had AFB since.
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I do have a local concern. One hive was burned on one property and several on an adjacent property. It was 6 or seven years ago and far enough away to reduce my danger. I think there is old equipment stashed. Probably far enough away to add some barrier to me but I heard that some equipment was offered for sale.
Robo mentions talking to the person and satisfying yourself that it is safe. Good advice but it has potential problems.
I am skeptical about taking the opinion of someone who is selling equipment in general and certainly not suggesting it applies to anyone in the original posters scenario. Some reasons are that the original owner may not be aware there was any problem or be convinced that it would be a worthwhile chance to take or perhaps might not know for sure how to identify AFB.
There are many things in life that we take chances on where we really have virtually no control of the situation. I agree there is no use constantly worrying about them. Where there is an issue that you can take a bit of care and greatly reduce the odds of problems, why not.
There is just something about a situation where ones course of action could conceivably affect a lot of other peoples welfare, that makes me think extra diligence is an onus. I would not want to become famous like Typhoid Mary did.
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laughing at the typhod refrence
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another snip...
He lives two miles from me. We both lost our hives.
tecumseh..
it is my understanding from what I have read (I haven't really seen an active case of AFB in perhaps 30 years) there are location that represent hot spots in terms of active AFB infestation... same for EFB. some of these outbreaks if constant likely could be feral hives which would take great effort to even locate <and active wax moth population is your friend here. there are genetic strategies (minnesota hygienic to be specific) that folks can take to confront this problem and I have always suspect that many of the pure disease vectors do have a good deal of nutritional aspect for the disease to totally display itself.
I should also mention here that two mile distance between you and your neighbor is well within flying distance of one another.
the best decontamination for AFB is a radiation chamber (haven't really seen one of these but I am guessing it is much the same kind of thing used for strawberries). I think perhaps they have one of these in North Carolina. perhaps Iddee could provide us with some detail of how the state of North Carolina manages this program???
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Raleigh does have a radiation chamber and it was inexpensive to use from what I was told when I started 4 years ago, but with all the budget cuts not sure if still working..... Maybe Iddee or Jacobs have up to date info.
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Our chamber is not a radiation chamber. It uses ethylene oxide. As far as I know, the decontamination service is still available, but anyone in NC wanting to know can call Don Hopkins or any of the other apiary inspectors.
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To contact an N. C. inspector......
http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/inspect.htm
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Do they have maps for the AFB EFB hot spots? is there a link to find out if your in a target zone?
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European Foul Brood has no signs on old comb and while it can be treated with antibiotics, I would not suggest using old comb.
I know because I did, and it was fine the first year but the losses started last winter and I went from 5 hives to 2 by May 2013. I did manage to save those 2. I burned or melted every bit of comb in the place and harvested all the honey, plus antibiotics, to do it.
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Gypsi- I started scorching my hives, but it just wasnt enough for me, I was worried that one spore would creep back and kill my hive again, not to mention other hives that may be in the area. I burned it bees and all. Killed me!
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European is tough but beatable. Now I did not scorch my boxes. But my bees didn't catch EFB from boxes they got it from comb, and then the dying hive got robbed out by the healthy hive next door and they caught it from HONEY...
I considered the radical burn the bees, but I had the state bee inspector come out and sample my hive and send larva samples to Belton. I began treatment for EFB as soon as I could get medicine, before I got the belton results. And my local mentor advised me to pull all comb and honey, so I did this too. Frames too, either burned or the plastic ones cooked in a solar oven then put in trash after melted.
But when it came to scorching the interior of the boxes, working alone, I didn't feel like I could do it without setting something afire in our severe drought, so I just solar ovened them and scraped off any comb first...
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a snip...
Do they have maps for the AFB EFB hot spots? is there a link to find out if your in a target zone?
tecumseh....
as far as I know the answer to your question is no.
the various state inspectors meet up from time to time and I hear talk from them about AFB/EFB hot spots < generally they meet up at the various convention one of which will very soon be in Baton Rouge and the other I think in San Antonio.
I am not certain about the other states but here privacy concerns would limit any exact information being divulged from an inspector. this thread also suggest a loop hole in the law.... that is here anyone can likely sell nucs and stay within the intentions of the state law but the selling of queens or packages requires a license. this may also suggest one major advantage to starting up with a package of bees.
due to the smell AFB is really not that difficult to recognize, EFB on the other hand requires a bit more and closer observation. there is now a third form which is now loosely call 'snotty brood' which appears to be a hybrid of these two types and one might suspect this could be confused for either AFB or EFB < I seem to hear more folks involved in pollination talk about this so places on the east and west coast may see more of this than those of us in the heartlands.
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gypsy- what is a solar oven? is it something specific to bees?
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these are all pics of solar ovens not bee spaciffic but really cool to have!
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=solar+ovens&qpvt=solar+ovens&FORM=IGRE
here is a youtube of them as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxkpC9tbRig
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Are these used for cooking/baking, or gardening, or..... ?
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these are for cooking if you want gardening then it would be a cold frame you would use.
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To simply cook frames I spray painted one of my affected deep boxes black, and put plexiglass over the top, and set it on my trailer with an old flat screen "screen" under it, and hung frames in it. Plastic frames twisted and turned. I did burn the old brood frames, and I did remove all comb, but honey frames or frames with virtually no wax on them I kept a few by cooking them to the plastic curl stage.. Plastic of course had to be tossed. I use wood frames with fishing line for foundationless, or plasticell. I threw out at least 6 boxes of plasticell after sterilizing
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the classic remedy for sterilizing equipment was..
for the box.... you empty these and then with a welder's torch and a rose bud tip scorch everything in the inside of the box.
for the frames... you take a number 3 washtub, fill about 2/3 full with water then add a package of lye (use to be red devil or something like that???) and boil the frames for 15 to 20 minutes
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And for wax moth, clean them up as best you can. but hive box and frames and foundations in the freezer for a couple of days.
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a freezer is also about the best thing you can use for severe hive beetle infestation. < this makes for quite a mess so if you do not have a designated freezer to deal with this problem then simply stick in a large plastic bag prior to placing in the freezer or expect you significant other to read you the riot act if you do not.
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tec- Good to Know, I haven't had shb yet but I know they are in our area. Thanks!
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Boiling in Lye is a new one for me, I ended up settling for bleach sterilization, which may or may not have been adequate...hmmm
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I think the freezer is so uncomplicated. Of course you'll have to have room in the freezer for a full hive body... might be worth going to the appliance store and picking up an small old freezer for cases like this.
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I'm picking up some used hives today, so I find this thread quite interesting. I can put the frames in the freezer, but not the boxes. If I am understanding this right, I can char the boxes with a torch and get whatever "bugs" that may be present in the boxes? I'm sorry if I sound a little ignorant, I just don't want to bring in unwanted problems.
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Jan0, what is the weather there. Has the equip. already been frozen? Will it be before you use it in the spring? Maybe just setting it outside where it will stay dry is freezing enough.
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Jan0, what is the weather there. Has the equip. already been frozen? Will it be before you use it in the spring? Maybe just setting it outside where it will stay dry is freezing enough.
Iddee I doubt that they've already been frozen. More than likely they've just been sitting in a garage forever. I'll know more when I get out there to pick it up this afternoon.
Currently we are getting down to below freezing, teens and low 20's, at night, but it warms up to the high 30's/low 40's during the day. It's suppose to start raining tomorrow and we probably won't see the sun again till the end of February or early March if weather patterns are true to form, so I'll have them in my garage where I can keep them dry while I clean them up.
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i think they are saying leave them out side a few nights to freeze off wax moth. the scorching of the hive is to prevent afb so im thinking you would have to do both procedures. But im just as new to this as your are so lets see what the more expirenced beeks say.
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Mama, the same understanding with me. charing is for American Foul Brood spores. Freezing is for wax moth larvae, and just found out from tecumseh that it works for Small Hive Beetle as well.
Charing to the point of medium colored coffee
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using coffe for a refrence you are getting to know me well lol
:laugh:
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i watched a youtube today where a lady was using a gallon of bleach to saturate around the base of the hives to prevent brooding of SHB has any one used and tested this method and how well did it work?
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I dummo mama... I don't want to use anything like bleach around my bees. I do know of a shb trap that can be put into a hive. I try, repeat "I try" to stay as natural as possible.
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Knowing that many people have died from breathing chlorine fumes, I won't be pouring any under my hives. It's just too easy to set the hives in full sun and the SHB leave.
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My SHB brooding solution. Not many SHB gets past these. No fumes, and the by products are either good fertilizer or tasty
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.cc%2Fod8ir9ee9%2Froosters12_31_2013.jpg&hash=2c3045d115f0a69d83a2b1641f551300629ae900) (http://postimg.cc/image/od8ir9ee9/)
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k thought it was odd but always good to check around and see what the masses say.
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Gypsi, they will take care of the wax moths, too. Great to have around hives.
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So my neighbors Guinies should help take care of any issures as well as my free rangers.
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Correct. Guineas and chickens are great around bee hives.
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I have guineas and chickens, but I've been told that guineas think of bees as a delicacy and will destroy a whole colony in no time at all. Chickens, no so much. Any truth to that?
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Absolutely no truth to that. I kept a hive in the yard with 50 plus guineas and 100 plus chickens for 10 years. Harvested and caught swarms from it every year. Never seen a wax moth or SHB.
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Thanks iddee. That's reassuring. It's not that I'm in love with my guineas, but I do like having them around. I was thinking that I might have to put up something to protect the hives from them. I feel much better now. :)
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Really good thread, makes me want a couple of hens in my yard :)
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jaybird hens are good but they dont have the spurs like roosters do. I leave spurs on any that will free range so they can defend them selfs. had one refuse to go to coop for the night and the only thing that saved him from a wild dog or racoon attack was those spures. he is one of my fav roos and darn stubborn. you need at least one roo and four hens to him.
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Chickens are a gateway drug. Next comes.....
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We live within the city limits, we can have 4 hens no roosters.
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a snip...
thought it was odd but always good to check around and see what the masses say.
tecumseh...
there are any number of things you can do to keep vegetation down at the base of the hive and at least I believe this does greatly reduce any problems you might have with the small hive beetle. I cannot see how it possible would reduce wax moth since their biology is just really really different.