Worldwide Beekeeping
Sustainable Living => Homestead => Topic started by: Perry on August 09, 2015, 09:14:16 pm
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Given up on trying to save for a proper honey house so we went to bank and applied for funds to help put one up. We have 2 acres of land with a well and septic just 10 minutes outside of town. I finally have DOT approval on the driveway and the DOE OK'd the well and septic. All I need now is a set of basic plans.
I am thinking something around 1,000 to 1,200 sq ft. on a concrete pad with a about a 1 foot concrete wall around the edge of the pad to keep the wood up so hosing floors is easy.
Because of zoning I want to make this place look somewhat like a residence which will help in a future sale if the time comes when I have to stop. A home would be much easier to sell than a "garage" type building.
At this point I have been lugging each and every super from the back of my truck to the back door, down a flight of stairs, extract it, and then lug the empties back up. With the amount of colonies I now have this just is not sustainable anymore after this year. I have all the equipment I could use to make extracting seem almost pleasurable, but no ideal place to set it all up.
I am thinking something basic (cheap) to the extreme. 4 walls with a full bathroom in one corner, and the rest being a completely open floor plan. I can always partition things off as they dictate later. I think a steep pitch roof, maybe a 12/12 to allow for possible storage above?
I have scoured looking for plans and images but nothing yet. Anyone have any ideas or pictures of something suitable?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2Fa29umpht7%2Fimages.jpg&hash=bd22f1615a195e157af27add569efdaeff871aef) (http://postimg.cc/image/a29umpht7/) Get rid of the garage doors and put in some windows and a man door?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs13.postimg.cc%2Faqma5kyib%2F76f341880a04e79b51e671a78ffce413.jpg&hash=738b7e3d113546d1f27e963384d149ea9e3c9375) (http://postimg.cc/image/aqma5kyib/)
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I would disagree with one idea. No honey house should be without drive in ability. A garage door for a fork lift to enter, or a quick entrance with a pickup in a pouring rain. You think carrying supers is bad, wait until you start carrying 600 lb. drums out and loading them.
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I can't really call it a "honey house" when I submit my plans. It will be referred to as a "seasonal dwelling", so garage doors may be a tough sell. I was thinking of a nice "deck" (loading dock) and a set of double doors out to the deck. ;)
This has been a pita when it comes to dealing with certain government departments. If it is anything other than a "dwelling" they want me to push it back 120 feet further from the front property line, which would move it 120 feet further away and downhill from the the well and septic. I would then have to pump up to the septic.
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Will the double doors take a pickup?
Beez Needz just built a ""barn"". A commercial building was rejected. With a special use permit, he could open a bee supply store in the barn. The barn has a front porch and a roll up garage door in the rear. All concrete floor, rest room, and office.
Can you build an "animal enclosure"? The only "barn" is the outside shape, painted red with a metal roof. We call it the bee barn.
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Looking at your first pic, do as you said, but the X on the front would be a sliding 10 X 10 door.
When you said sliding door, I took it as a double sliding glass door. My mistake there.
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How about a 30 X 40 with a rentable suit up stairs as a mortgage helper How much can you rent a 1 bedroom loft for in NS.
Iddee just posted Not a standard 36" doors but you can get doors that are 4 ft wide and 8 feet tall which would allow a truck in. or could use a carport over the loading dock. Level dock so unloading with a hand truck will save many trips of heavy lifting.
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I don't know how many folks would want to rent a suite right above a honey house, but it's a thought. 30 by 40 is big, not sure I could afford it. I am hoping to put something basic up for around 25G. No inside finishing, just concrete floors and weather tight. Maybe I'm being naive?
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This company..... http://www.alliedsteelbuildings.com/nova-scotia/
Built this building..... http://www.alliedsteelbuildings.com/projects/metal-building-homes-texas/
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Yaaaaaaaaay! That is Soo Cool Perry! Really happy for you!
My only thought is that the concrete pad will be hard on your legs, especially if your going to be spending full days in there ~
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Rubber mats where you stand. Need concrete to withstand the weight long term specially when barrels are used to store honey.
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I have been in construction for about 10 years, started off framing and now I'm primarily a tile setter. Perry, please feel free to PM me with technical questions along the way.
25K is a paper thin budget, even for what you're proposing. Just a nice 30x40 concrete slab and gravel driveway would run you around 10 to 15K in B.C. A rafter package for that size would not be cheap either.
For economy, I'd give up on the barn shape and go with a flat roof. make your building 12 ft high at the front and 8 at the back. The low pitch will limit your roofing materials somewhat, but it will be very easy to work on.
Also don't forget you'll need footings 3 to 4 feet down depending on your climate.
I don't mean to discourage you at all, but in my experience, you need to about double your budget to get what you described. Start by narrowing down your plans and then get some estimates from local contractors.
If I was trying to sell this to the planning department, I'd pitch them a detached double garage with main building to follow (at an indefinite future date).
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"For economy, I'd give up on the barn shape and go with a flat roof. make your building 12 ft high at the front and 8 at the back. The low pitch will limit your roofing materials somewhat, but it will be very easy to work on.
I like this idea due to the amount of snow that can happen in Perry's territory ~ slanted roof
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A 12 on 12 slop roof wont hold any snow steel on a 5 on 12 wont either and they will make him build for the snow load.
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My copy of ABC and XYZ of beekeeping (1972 edition) has an article on Building a Honey House. Maybe some of the ideas presented there are worth incorporating into your planned honey house.
Considering that advances have been made since then, I'd recommend a serious search of the topic with Google as your guide.
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If I was trying to sell this to the planning department, I'd pitch them a detached double garage with main building to follow (at an indefinite future date).
If it is detached it has to be further set back than the main dwelling. I have done work for a guy with the same problem Planning thinks of the road way as the front of your property. the pack of his property overlooked Kal Lake and beach so wanted the house at the back of the lot for the view. But he could not have the garage in the front yard close to the road. The garage needed to be behind the house or attached to the house if it extended in front of the house. The solution was a 80` covered walkway from the house to the garage.
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Some great suggestions so far. :)
One of the catches to the planning department is that they will not allow a garage or shop or anything built on the property until there is a dwelling on it first. I am guessing they were stung too many times over the years by folks building garages and then never building the dwelling to get around the regs.
With the snow we get I would avoid anything low slope as far as roofing goes.
I know I'm trying to do this on a shoestring, but I have to keep in mind the debt versus the time left to repay. I'm 57, and in theory I can go until I'm 70+ if the set up makes things easier.
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@Perry:
Go until you're 70 my butt. You can't live your life based on mortuary tables. You will go until you can't go. That times comes at the Lord's convenience and not ours. I'm 76 years old and just took out a 30 year mortgage, and no, I don't intend to drag that last monthly payment to the local bank at 106 years of age. I intend to pay it off in a couple of years, and your honey house will also be paid of sooner than you think.
Bear in mind that inflation will make your honey house less expensive as the years pass. Most building double in cost every decade. The honey house you build today for 50 grand will cost you 100 grand in ten years. This project will enhance the value of your property, and fifty grand will cost you about 250 bucks a month as opposed half that for your original thoughts of spending 25 K for the house. Don't cut back to the point that you will not be happy with the finished product. You don't want to say to yourself, "Gee, I wish I had spent a bit more and got it the way I wanted it."
Good luck my friend.
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I would disagree with one idea. No honey house should be without drive in ability. A garage door for a fork lift to enter, or a quick entrance with a pickup in a pouring rain. You think carrying supers is bad, wait until you start carrying 600 lb. drums out and loading them.
One of the catches to the planning department is that they will not allow a garage or shop or anything built on the property until there is a dwelling on it first. I am guessing they were stung too many times over the years by folks building garages and then never building the dwelling to get around the regs.
then submit the plan with a wall where you wont put them and call that space a garage, as part of the "house" you are going to build. you WILL want the door... If they have to inspect and ask where your fire wall is, tell them its going up last, so you can use the garage area for constructing interior walls, cabinets etc... Yes, ONE garage door, take Iddee's word for it! If you must, make the door JUST large enough for a trctor bucket, or a skid steer.. a large double door you can roll barrels through with a concrete pad outside of it if possible. Pallet jacks roll nicer on concrete.
The area I use to extract is not that large, but I have plenty of room around my extracting area to put supers, buckets, jars etc, etc, etc... The one thing that I have quickly found, is that the honey extracting area has also become the canning area, and the wax processing area, NOT to mention making maple syrup...... Room for storage, as you well know, cannot be overlooked. If your certain you are going to USE 1000 square feet, then make it 2000 square feet. It may be too large at first, but you will quickly grow into it. In three years you will be wishing it was larger. You know as well as anyone how crowded things can get with 100 supers stacked up.... it seems to get more crowded with 38 Supers FULL and 38 supers empty and 24 frames in the extractor....
A drain in the floor is a must have. Here, where I live they allow me to run a drain straight out to daylight/ditch which is PERFECT so that I do not have to worry about plugging up pipes with wax particles. If I had to run them through a septic I would put screens on all the drains and deal with cleaning them every fifteen minutes.... If zoning forbids a drain in the floor, put it in anyhow, and pour conjcrete over it, so you can chip it out later. Drain, yes! :yes:
Concrete around the outside edges would be perfect, Cinder block a close second. Water, and a water heater.... Outlets lots of outlets. Wait.... is this going to become the wood shop too? Seems I recall someone making boxes and cutting handles outside....
HEAT would sure be nice to keep the pipes from freezing.. if you cant KEEP it heated, install a frost free faucet and hook your water system to it. that way you can shut off the faucet, and the water will drain back to below the frost level. I have a couple of them, and recommend having it outside the wall, and hooking the hose to a camper connection or similar in the wall itself. If you ever have to dig up the faucet for service it will save you tearing up concrete. I have 50 year old faucet's that are still working perfectly, and 5 year old faucet's that need rebuilt......
I have been looking at building my own honey house. Can you tell? But Mine will have to serve multiple purposes, including the wood shop, so 3000 square feet will not be excessive.
You can ALWAYS use more room, but getting more room isnt as easy as HAVING more room.
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How expensive is concrete delivered to your building site? If its reasonable, you could use foam for the walls and pour cement in the void. The foam is left in place for insulation and for a base for stucco on the outside and for nailing of sheetrock inside.
Added a picture...
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ICF (intergrated concrete form) construction is catching on up here, but I'm not sure of the costs. I'll look into it though.
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If concrete is cheap enough it is the way to go. You can do the forms yourself, even the stucco on the outside you can do.....Saving on the labor cost will make up for the cost of foam blocks & rebar, and it will be somewhat insulated when you are finished.
If there is a company near you making Structurally Insulated Panels (SIPs), you could go that way and have a great outcome too. But, SIPs are not cheap. If anyone could find a bargain though, its Perry! :-)
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Perry, if what I am reading, you are building this barn with the thought that at some point in time it could be converted into a residence? Also, did someone write that there is a view from the back of the barn?
If that is the case, from a female's perspective, I would build the peaked roof barn and put the front door on the front of the house (duh) and possibly put windows on either side so that it looks like a home. Then, I would put a bank of sliding or folding glass doors in the back of the barn. You could have your driveway go around the back of the barn, offload your stuff right there and bring it in through the opened glass doors. You could even pour a slab in front of the doors and it could serve as an offloading area and a possible patio for the future residents to use as a patio and have a nice view. Also, if you are considering a conversion at some future time, I would suggest you visualize what the floor plan would be like now so you put your water and septic in a place where it could stay and serve the bathroom and future kitchen. Might also want to consider where you would locate a kitchen and then you could install your outlets above kitchen counter heights. Typical woman, always thinking wayyyyy ahead. Good luck with your project.
Oh, one other thought......radiant heat in the floor before you pour your slab???
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In floor radiant heat would be great, but remember, I am trying to do this without busting my already sad wallet.
25K, 50K, easy to say and not really that much difference in the big scheme I suppose, but has anyone ever tried to save 25K? Not easy! It has to be paid back at some point. :o
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It is hard to save money. It is much easier to gain equity. Perry, you are a young man in today's world of modern day medicine. You very likely have 20 to 30 years of work time left. Ten or 15 years from now, if you tire of beekeeping you will have a huge equity in your home and honey house. At some point, you may want to sell your bee business and to Alaska and be a profession hunting guide. There will be a big equity. In my long life, I have always made money on real estate (excluding my houses that I had to buy and sell at sometimes inopportune times). It's the only investment that has never failed me.
You're a clever guy. Build all you want now, and when and if you decide to sell, you will be able to make a property gain or a big money profit on the equity. You can't save much, but you can gain a lot of EQUITY.
Lazy
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Knowing your way of doing things, Perry, I think Lazy S has given some very good advice and is thinking in the right direction. If, as you are probably planning, you will do the construction yourself, you'll be "saving" a lot of money and getting exactly what you want for minimum cost.
What you are doing now is the first and possibly the most important step---planning it out with a lot of thoughtfulness. Try to build with the maximum number of reasonable options answered, remembering that having to make additions or changes later will always be more expensive than doing them from the start. That is particularly important with items such as electricity and plumbing.
However, give yourself a reasonable time frame to do the job. Remember too that your son is growing up and, if he tends to lean toward your way of doing things, he'll not only be happy to work with you, but he'll learn a lot, be of enormous help and both of you will have the pride of his participation in this "project".
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what about actually loving there and selling your house in town?
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http://atriumvillas.ca/fpsf/fpsf.htm
This is one of the cheaper ways to do the footings have the out side ground level 6" lower than the cement floor level. have a cement slab out from the door 10' at ground level and then dug down on one side to creat a level loading dock.
Perry can you screen capture google maps of your property and draw in the property lines, water well and line, septic tank and inlet and field as best that you know. And the property distance between corner posts.
And where on the property you would like the building located.
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That is an excellent link Apis, thank you.
I will try and bring up what you mentioned.
OK I did my best Apis, here is the screen shot:
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs16.postimg.cc%2F5oaxasqwx%2FLockhartville.jpg&hash=433532453319efe22e0a60ed82370e1eb3a5d935) (http://postimg.cc/image/5oaxasqwx/)
2 acres of land.
The old house was torn down. The septic tank is in yellow, the septic field is in green. The well is just to the right of the old house, across the driveway.
Where I would like the building to go is in blue.
The building would face west towards the road that way, or I could turn it sideways to face south if I stay 45 feet in from the front property line.
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what about actually loving there and selling your house in town?
I do most of my loving in town Michelle, my wife is not the outdoor type! ;) :D ;D :laugh:
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The septic tank itself is not under where you have the honey house drawn? Normally the tank is not to far from the house.
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No, the septic tank itself is the small yellow circle. I would try to have it not too far from a corner of the honey house and that is the corner where I would put the bathroom.
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OK miss read I was thinking the yellow was the well. Glad I got that straightened out. Pool two houses down GREAT BEE WATERING HOLE. the bees will like it.
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:D Never noticed that until you mentioned it. :D
There is a small lake even closer, just out of view at the bottom of the picture.
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There are 2 in the picture both about the same distance from the honey house "They Like to be in the center so they don't have to decide" "Mr Cristy You make good cookies"
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Given up on trying to save for a proper honey house so we went to bank and applied for funds to help put one up. We have 2 acres of land with a well and septic just 10 minutes outside of town. I finally have DOT approval on the driveway and the DOE OK'd the well and septic. All I need now is a set of basic plans.
I am thinking something around 1,000 to 1,200 sq ft. on a concrete pad with a about a 1 foot concrete wall around the edge of the pad to keep the wood up so hosing floors is easy.
Because of zoning I want to make this place look somewhat like a residence which will help in a future sale if the time comes when I have to stop. A home would be much easier to sell than a "garage" type building.
At this point I have been lugging each and every super from the back of my truck to the back door, down a flight of stairs, extract it, and then lug the empties back up. With the amount of colonies I now have this just is not sustainable anymore after this year. I have all the equipment I could use to make extracting seem almost pleasurable, but no ideal place to set it all up.
I am thinking something basic (cheap) to the extreme. 4 walls with a full bathroom in one corner, and the rest being a completely open floor plan. I can always partition things off as they dictate later. I think a steep pitch roof, maybe a 12/12 to allow for possible storage above?
I have scoured looking for plans and images but nothing yet. Anyone have any ideas or pictures of something suitable?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2Fa29umpht7%2Fimages.jpg&hash=bd22f1615a195e157af27add569efdaeff871aef) (http://postimg.cc/image/a29umpht7/) Get rid of the garage doors and put in some windows and a man door?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs13.postimg.cc%2Faqma5kyib%2F76f341880a04e79b51e671a78ffce413.jpg&hash=738b7e3d113546d1f27e963384d149ea9e3c9375) (http://postimg.cc/image/aqma5kyib/)
At least you have to go down not up like I do! Good luck at your quest.
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@Perry:
Going back to my thoughts on equity: I visited with a young farmer yesterday, and he told related to me that he didn't make a lot of money after he paid his farm mortgages, but he was building a nice equity. We looked at some cotton and hay crops and he told me he paid 1,200 dollars an acre for the land in 2005. That land is worth about 3,200 dollars per acre now. That's a gross gain of over 100 percent, it's probably an 80 percent net gain after taxes and fees. His plan is to work and own as much land as possible and someday sell his farm and live on his earned equity. I think you can do the same thing with your honey house and property.
You will eventually have two options to sell. You could sell the property and the honey house to someone and keep your beekeeping on a smaller scale, or you sell your business by combining all of your beekeeping assets in a whole and selling the total business. You're relatively young in today's world. You're in the driver's seat with a lot of knowledge and skill. Strike while the iron is hot.
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Dang, the building code must be tough where you live. When I retired here in Alabama on my dads ole home site, I took four sets of blueprints to the court house to get permits to build my house and I was told that in this county, no permits were required and no inspections, just build it the way I wanted because I had to live in it. The only permit I had to get was for the septic tank, I think this is federal. I have since added a three car garage with a man cave on one end and a 14x24 bee room on the back, no permits. Also in Randolph county, if you are over 65 and homestead, there are no property taxes.
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I live in a place like ceasarfish. The state requires the county to inspect and make sure my septic system meets all state regulations. It takes a permit prior to work and an inspection prior to backfilling the septic system. The electric cooperative requires the same thing. Other than that, there are zero regulations outside of the city limits.
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In Maine, I ws fined for REPLACING an old porch with a new one. REPLACING a deck with a new one, and with REPLACING old windows with new ones... Fine was 25 dollars, Permit was 50, and I had to wait for the county to decide if it was OK that I did those things on my own without hiring a contractor etc.... I didnt ask for a permit to build my new house out there, I just built it, AND moved in... then we were told we had to move out, tear open walls so the wiring could be inspected. Dig up the septic so it could be inspected, etc... I said.. nope, fine me... cost me 200 dollars... for the septic and 150 dollars for the electrical.. ;D
I imagine its even worse now. That was 30 years ago.
Moved to Iowa, went to the courthouse to talk to the code enforcement officer... I also asked what i needed to do for permits.. I was told.. "YOUR the one who has to live in it, build it how you want."
I had to have the electrical inspected, and I had to build the septic system to code, and have it inspected, no permits or fees.
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Up in the tundra no mater where you live what we do needs to meet the national building code, that is standard across Canada So unless what you are doing is hidden and not hooking into the grid, Power, Water, Sewer, and Natural Gas. You need a permit to get hooked up.
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I am late to this party but I have a nickel to throw in mix. My honey house is 24x24 x8. Has plenty of room for a 72 frame extractor, uncapping tub,3 bowl ss sink, 250gal ss tank and 3 about 25 gallon holding tanks. I also store syrup jars and other supplies in there. Empty hives and honey supers are stored in my pole barn. This started life as a $3500 pole barn kit. Permits and extras like 5 windows concrete, for the floor, stain and insulation added about another 1000 to it.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv295%2Foldgrumpy%2F110226_Deermisc_3096.jpg&hash=2b8d33f7cba56eb575e71600cb5894d38819982c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/oldgrumpy/media/110226_Deermisc_3096.jpg.html)
We also had to hire a guy to drill the required 10 inch holes for some reason we could not use our own post hole digger to drill 6 inch dia holes.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy60%2Ftwotracker%2FThe%2520honey%2520house%2Fboreingthefirsthole.jpg&hash=a6b8ab3ab6d02bfbb6de0daf11898f8c04d0d2ff) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/twotracker/media/The%20honey%20house/boreingthefirsthole.jpg.html)
Kit came with T 1-11 siding, Windows I bought extra.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy60%2Ftwotracker%2FThe%2520honey%2520house%2Feastsideview.jpg&hash=feda5e0d57903045480fb733b183c51d341c478f) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/twotracker/media/The%20honey%20house/eastsideview.jpg.html)
I came with one normal walk in/out door. I picked this fancy one up out of the road side trash. A dog had scratched it at the bottom left side.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy60%2Ftwotracker%2FThe%2520honey%2520house%2Ffirstdoorinplaceandwindowopeningsse.jpg&hash=d97d600b3ffcef0fa952d050e0fc7e49d6b01c82) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/twotracker/media/The%20honey%20house/firstdoorinplaceandwindowopeningsse.jpg.html)
this is the kit door.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy60%2Ftwotracker%2FThe%2520honey%2520house%2Fseconddoorinplaceandinstallinghardw.jpg&hash=402a27d11ecf26b4b4905fe2b1eeaf2802452155) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/twotracker/media/The%20honey%20house/seconddoorinplaceandinstallinghardw.jpg.html)
This kit came with truss roof system to meet our snow load which isn't all that much.
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I have one rolling door 10' wide 8' high. Back the pick up up to the door and unload honey supers onto wheeled dollies I made. Either way you will have to lift supers either from the truck to the dollies or up on the dolly stack.
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Half inch OSB is a barrier for the steel roof.
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Had to put the rock in there because a Fed X driver backed into it and a dumb church pounder.
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I laid out the floor so it had a slight non noticeable slope to the drain under the sink. Also built the platform for the extractor and uncapping tank so I was not standing on concrete and it is easier to scrape proplis and bits of wax off it., There is a mop board around the bottom of the wall board.
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I have 200 amp electric service running water hot and cold. the little water heater fits under the sink.
This also was not built in a day. Basic shell was done in a week. We bought a used mixer and poured our floor in stages over a couple months.
Kare stained it in a little over a week.
;D Al
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Great pictures Al, thanks! :photos: :goodjob:
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Very impressive Alley. Looking at what you did and how well you did it almost makes me want to build one myself. :yah:
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Thanks, State law requires a licensed honey house if you sell away from your home and over 1500 pounds.
I forgot I have a 4x8 work bench in there where I assemble frames add foundation and assemble the boxes.
;D Al
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Al, very cool....you did a great job planning that out.