Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: capt44 on October 25, 2015, 10:48:52 pm
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I have been treating a lot of hives with oxalic acid vapor and I try to stay on the upwind side.
Once in awhile I will get a light whif of it. (You'll know when you do)
I came down with flu like symptoms of not being able to breath without coughing and body aches.
I did a search and found out I could have inhaled to much.
I'm going to the doc tomorrow and 10/26/2015 and tell him what I've done.
It said it can cause lung damage, intestinal damage and target body organs and cause kidney failure.
I've got to treat some hives the second time the first week in November.
I have ordered a respirator to wear.
Just going to let ya'll know I thought I was being careful.
Guess not.
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Thank for the heads up capt44, i've not used OA yet but thought i might try it on some of my weaker hives>? I have a paint respirator that i was going to use if i do. Hope everything checks out good for you. Jack
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I have definately gotten some whiffs of it in the past. I insert the plate into the hive, plug the entrance with a kitchen towel, set timer for 2 1/2 mins, connect the battery, and walk to another part of the yard, or the front yard and turn on sprinklers, or go into the garage and throw in a load of laundry. Then, go back to the hive after 2 1/2 mins, disconnect the battery, and leave the entrance plugged for 10 minutes. Then remove it. I feel confident with this method.
You have a right to be concerned, if it doesn't feel right, or you don't feel well, you are doing the right thing by going to the doc. Keep us posted.
Sending you good healing mojo Capt :)
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So sorry to hear about your complications from oxalic acid. I wish you well. This is a good example of how careful beekeepers should be around some of these treatments.
I used oxalic acid this fall for the first time. Based upon information another beekeeper gave me, I treated my country bees using the syringe method. I too realized afterwards that I should have used a mask of some type as I had a "taste" in my mouth that lasted about 2 hours. When I got back to the car I began feeling the symptoms and considered my self lucky that I hadn't exposed myself worse out in the middle of no where. I had followed all the other precautionary steps, but didn't think about a mask because I was doing the drip method. Next time, I will use a mask for sure. This crazy adventure in beekeeping isn't worth risking your health.
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I think that Jen has the best method. Remember to keep the battery upwind. If you use a respirator, look up the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and use the correct respirator filter for oxalic acid vapor. Using a painters respirator of dust mask may be of no value. All of my safety training has been adamant about using the correct filter and respirator for the task.
Most accidents occur because people are working hurriedly. Take your time and think out how you are going to accomplish the task. Be slow, be careful, be diligent and remember; "SAFETY IS NO ACCIDENT."
I say all of the above and ripped the heck out of my trigger finger yesterday taking a cabinet off of a wall. :)
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I think that Jen has the best method. Remember to keep the battery upwind. If you use a respirator, look up the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and use the correct respirator filter for oxalic acid vapor. Using a painters respirator of dust mask may be of no value. All of my safety training has been adamant about using the correct filter and respirator for the task.
Most accidents occur because people are working hurriedly. Take your time and think out how you are going to accomplish the task. Be slow, be careful, be diligent and remember; "SAFETY IS NO ACCIDENT."
I say all of the above and ripped the heck out of my trigger finger yesterday taking a cabinet off of a wall. :)
Exactly right. I was looking through the respirators. I think you can get them at Lowe's or Amazon. Be sure to look for the right cartridge. Lots of info on respirators on Google, especially at 3M.
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Strange that people have actually done this on purpose and have felt no symptoms and had no problems. I got my first whiff of the stuff this fall while treating. Locked me up fast.. i just backed up, waited a moment and continued... no problems or symptoms or problems. REALLY interested in what the doc has to say Capt.
I asked my doc about the stuff when I first started using it. He told me as long as I wasnt constantly trying to breathe it I would be fine. He also said it was a natural substance our bodies could metabolize in small amounts. So long as I dont try to eat it in the concentrated form.....
We eat Oxalic every day, so our bodies are set up to handle it, though NOT through the lungs..
Dumb cane or Leopard lily (Dieffenbachia) has Highly concentrated amounts of Oxalic. When some unfortunate animal (or person) chows down they end up with a painful and swollen mouth. In some cases the swelling is so bad it causes the victim to go silent for inability to talk, this is where the common name of Dumb Cane came from.
When breathing a large amount of the vapor it closes up the throat and causes lock up and coughing. If a concentrated amount is inhaled it may cause similar effects as eating Dieffenbachia. Swelling of the mouth and upper throat, numbness and pain in the associated areas. If these effects are noticed seek medical care immediately!
I wasnt able to inhale at ALL when i caught a breath of the stuff... I didnt do it multiple times either, so cant testify to any side effects....
30 to 60 hives treated three times each in the spring and at least once int he fall.. = around 1500 treatments administered at this time and date, with only a single episode of getting a whiff of it. I take no special precautions other than staying upwind and away from the hive while treating. That may change when the second vaporizor arrives and I am working two of them regularly...
So if you are having issues from breathing it, I am very much interested in hearing about it, before I have problems, so I can stop them before they start.
Treating with liquid drench? about every plant we handle has OA in it, especially if you have ever cut up rhubarb. Getting the concentrated form on your skin will soon tell you it is there with an Itchy burning feeling. Just go wash/wipe it off. I get it on my hands about every time I fill the pan because I hate wearing gloves. I have had no issues/symptoms at all in that regard. But we are all different and react differently.
Liquid drench shortens the life span of the treated bees because they are forced to ingest it, but it is proven to work.
What has OA in it?
Foods that are edible, but still contain significant concentrations of oxalic acid include - in decreasing order - buckwheat, star fruit (carambola), black pepper, parsley, poppy seed, rhubarb stalks, amaranth, spinach, chard, beets, cocoa, chocolate, (CHOCOLATE!!!!) most nuts, most berries, and beans. The gritty feel one gets in the mouth when drinking milk with rhubarb desserts is caused by precipitation of calcium oxalate. Thus even dilute amounts of oxalic acid can readily "crack" the casein found in various dairy products.
Leaves of the tea plant (Camellia sinensis) are known to contain among the greatest measured concentrations of oxalic acid relative to other plants. However the infusion beverage typically contains only low to moderate amounts of oxalic acid per serving, due to the small mass of leaves used for brewing.
Uses
Uses:
In household chemical products such as Bar Keeper's Friend, some bleaches, and rustproofing treatments.
In wood restorers where the acid dissolves away a layer of dry surface wood to expose fresh material underneath.
As a mordant in dyeing processes.
Vaporized oxalic acid is used by some beekeepers as an insecticide against the parasitic Varroa mite.
I asked my wife to see if there were OSHA standards for breathing OA...
She said;
The PEL (Permissible exposure limit) is 1 milligram per cubic meter of air averaged over an 8 hour work shift.
How is that relevant? I have no clue, but suspect that the "whiff" we get in treating bee hives is well above that limit since it causes lockup.. I do have to wonder, that since it DOES cause lockup, how much of it actually reaches the lungs?
Having experienced it once now, I have no interest in experiencing it again... My methods have kept me away from that experience quite well until now, so I will probably not change how I do it... however.... If I start to have more trouble I will at the least start wearing my paint respirator with appropriate filters.
I am also waiting to hear what Capt hears from his doc.
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Lazy, not using exact figures, just approximating, that would be 1 milligram every 500 breaths, if breathing very heavily, for a solid 8 hours. I think that is many times more than one could inhale in one breath.
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Not sure about this but I believe a chemical vapor respirator should have an activated charcoal filter. My memory is not reliable though- it's the reason I'm retired.
Neill
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I have been very careful with the OA vapour. I use a full face mask with organic acid cartrigges. All the organic acids are naturally occuring substances, but that does not make them safe to use. Acid vapours can permanently scar your lung tissue with no immediate symptoms, except years later you find yourself short of breath. Not to be trifled with.
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...I use a full face mask with organic acid cartriges....
I'd pay money to see you use that! ;-)
I find it useful to place a lit smoker on top of the hive, the smoke trail tells you immediately how the air currents are moving. Easy to avoid that way. :-)
EPA's product label requires long sleeve shirt, socks and shoes, gloves, goggles or face shield, and finally, half face respirator with particulate cartridge. If that is how we should look everyday using OAV, how will we recognize the impending zombie apocolypse? ;-)
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I do suit and gloves and Jen's walkaway method. I pen the chickens on the lot when I am messing with bees, and I just go hang out with the chickens
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I got a whiff this year and now that I think about it, the Upper respiratory infection followed shortly after. The cold cleared up but I have been plagued with a cough since then. I do have a history of chronic asthmatic/bronchitis, so perhaps breathing the OA and the cold set off the AB. Who knows and hindsight is 20/20 so i am asking Santa for a respirator.
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The question to the family doc;
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I have had metal fume fever several times throughout my life, and I am reading that there are some folks that have had problems with breathing the fumes from Oxalic Acid Vaporization of their bees... is it similar, and should I bee worried from an occasional whiff of the vapor when I treat my bees?"
The reply;
I looked it up, and there is very little research on actually breathing the fumes. I can find a lot of references to getting Oxalic on skin, in eyes, in mouth etc...
What I can find depends entirely on how much was inhaled, meaning the concentration of the vapor. Typically it causes coughing and an inability to continue inhaling, so it appears that the mechanism of coughing would further limit the intake. I will look into this further for you, but for now, I would suggest attempting to stay out of the vapor. I will also say, at this current time, and this is subject to change with further research, that from the method you describe it would be quite difficult to inhale enough vapor to cause problems as far down as your lungs. It would be more likely to cause issues in the upper respiratory tract and mouth, or nose. Namely, a burning and numbness that will slowly fade. Trace amounts of Oxalic Acid are in most natural plants and as such, your body will be capable of dealing with it in a short amount of time.
It is a good question I just cant answer clearer yet, and if more beekeepers are using it, I should know more. I will let you know what I find out.
I was hoping for more but its a start.
Scott
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From my understanding on how AC vaporization works When the powder is heated and is turned into a vapor to float and get fanned thru the hive. When it cools it reforms into microscopic crystals that damage the mites. If these crystals are becoming embedded in our throat and lungs. the damage could cause long term health issues.
We breath dust every day, for years and years no one worried about the dust from asbestos ether.
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We have an upper respiratory affection riding around the country right now. If you get it, see a doctor right away. I came up with a nagging cough late august. I waited 3 weeks till I was so sick. I had to see the doc. I picked up the bug from my fishing buddy. He had the same crap. Upper respiratory affection. Doc pulled me off of all my arthritis medications. He put me on two prescriptions to get rid of it. I was sick for almost 7 weeks with it. I passed the affection on to my wife and she was sick for almost a month. We booth have the cough yet. I don’t think its oxalic acid causing the problem here. People that use this stuff should try to protect your self with a respiratory mask. I use the N-95 paper mask. It works for me. you can use the better mask but I think its over kill.
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I find it useful to place a lit smoker on top of the hive, the smoke trail tells you immediately how the air currents are moving. Easy to avoid that way. :-)
That's what I call a genuine pearl of wisdom, Lee.
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I went to the VA emergency room and seen a doc.
They said I had pneumonia.
Ain't got a clue how I got that.
I told them of the Oxalic Acid vapor and they had to look it up.
I am showing no signs of chemical poisoning at this time but I still have some test results I'm waiting for.
They run a camera down my throat and down into my lungs and so far no chemical contamination.
But what I've read about it so far I am going to use a respirator.
Whew! so far so good cept for the pneumonia part.
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Oh Man Capt! ~ I've had pheumonia :sad: You 'don't' want to mess with it, you 'do want to' stay down until it's gone. It's going to be a few weeks. Glad to hear that there is no chemical damage.
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From my understanding on how AC vaporization works When the powder is heated and is turned into a vapor to float and get fanned thru the hive. When it cools it reforms into microscopic crystals that damage the mites. If these crystals are becoming embedded in our throat and lungs. the damage could cause long term health issues.
We breath dust every day, for years and years no one worried about the dust from asbestos ether.
Not according to what I have read and heard (so far) because those crystals are absorbed.. The problems are short term only, even with larger doses??? Burning, numbness etc, until the associated crystals are absorbed.. associations of infections and other problems like colds or flu etc apparently unrelated... As I understand it right now.. It would take more than an ounce of concentrated OA to cause permanent problems..
STILL trying to get my doc to give me a more in depth and detailed explanation of those issues and related problems/symptoms.... I'm NOT a doc, and this is ONLY what I have been told by those who ARE carrying their doctorates. Still looking /still trying to find out factual information...
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I find it useful to place a lit smoker on top of the hive, the smoke trail tells you immediately how the air currents are moving. Easy to avoid that way. :-)
That wouldn't help me. Smoke follows beauty. 8)
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I went to the VA emergency room and seen a doc.
They said I had pneumonia.
Ain't got a clue how I got that.
I told them of the Oxalic Acid vapor and they had to look it up.
I am showing no signs of chemical poisoning at this time but I still have some test results I'm waiting for.
They run a camera down my throat and down into my lungs and so far no chemical contamination.
But what I've read about it so far I am going to use a respirator.
Whew! so far so good cept for the pneumonia part.
Get well soon!
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Get well quick Capt44, then get a pneumonia shot. :yes: Once you've had pneumonia they tell me your more susceptible to it in the future :o I remember the doc coming to our home when i was 6 or 7 years old and told mom that i had Whooping cough and pneumonia (at the same time) gave me a shot? and told mom if i made it through the night that i would probably be alright, :o that he would check me in the mourning. Mom and dad stayed up all night keeping me cool with a cool wet wash cloth. Needless to say i was afraid to go to sleep. Times have sure changed (for the Good) Jack
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I find it useful to place a lit smoker on top of the hive, the smoke trail tells you immediately how the air currents are moving. Easy to avoid that way. :-)
That wouldn't help me. Smoke follows beauty. 8)
An objective test, eh? ;-)
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Well here I go again.
I wound up with an infection on one of my old stomach scars.
Wound up in the hospital and now I'm home with a big hole in my belly.
Home health comes by everyday and treats it.
I told the surgeon doc that whatever happens let it happen now for I'm booked up come spring.
So here I go again, ain't my first rodeo.
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Hey Capt, lets think positive here, good things are yet to come. :yes: Jack
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You have some time until you get out there with the bees, I hope you heal and rest until necessity calls for your rested self. :-)
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Sorry to hear Capt. Hoping you heal fast with no more complications.
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Well this isn't my first rodeo with my stomach.
It's from surgeries I had when I had colon cancer , which I'm cancer free.
Had 3 hernias on my stomach a couple of years back so they put a mesh in and it worked perfect cept for one thing.
The Doc thinks my body doesn't want to accept it and it could be causing the flare ups.
I told her it's good it's taking place now cause I'm booked up in the spring raising honey bee queens. lol
But she said the mesh may have to come out. :-X
Oh well I'm a tough ole bird.
I was feeding 2-1 sugar syrup today to some week hives I merged.
Now the home health nurse will probably scold me in the mawn'n for workin'.
I done told them I ain't gonna set down and dry up, I stay active.
Sooooo it's the same ole thang just a different day.
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Dang Capt... take it easy and get well so you CAN raise those queens!
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LOL capt! tough ol bird eh?!....you keep on 'riding' in the 'rodeo'!!!!.......... :D :D :D
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Look who's calling someone a tough old bird. If a squirt can survive everything she's been through,you shouldn't have any problems. :laugh: :laugh: Jack
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LOL jack!!! i just keep riding in the rodeo no matter what, like many of us do! sometimes good outcome sometimes not........lol..........!!!!
life is good!.............. :D
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Yesterday and today I made a second round of OA vapor treatments to my hives. I hadn't intended to give two treatments
(two weeks apart) but last week, when looking through the hives I spotted a varroa mite on the back of a worker in one of my hives and figured that maybe my treatment wasn't thorough enough. The reason for my thinking so is not only because of the mite I spotted but because, when vaporizing the hives, I didn't see any real quantities of OA vapor coming out and I thought that maybe the job wasn't done thoroughly enough. To be honest, both times I applied OA, I barely saw any vapor, if any at all, from most of the hives.
The only thing that I did really differently from the instructions I read and the videos I watched was that I used a car battery charger (not a battery) as my source of power. I put the settings on 24 V at Rapid charge rate. When I first tested these settings outside a hive to see how it worked, the OA powder vaporized nicely. When I removed the vaporizer from the hives, (after 5 minutes with currrent and a two minute waiting period before removal) the copper pan was pretty clean, with only a small amount of residue left behind.
Can any one put my mind at ease or make any suggestions?
One thing I can say with certainty about the OA treatment is that the bees seemed to be totally unfazed by it all. I opened two hives a few minutes after giving the treatment and behavior was completely normal---the bees were calmly going about their business as if nothing had been done to them at all.
Lee, I thank you for your brilliant suggestion about leaving the smoker nearby the hive so the direction of the smoke could warn you about the movement of the OA vapor.
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My varrox vaporizer needs 12 volts to heat up the pan. It takes 4 minutes to burn off the oxalic acid crystals. If you didn’t see any crystals in the pan, you got a good burn. Check your mite drop after 24 hours. If you see a lot of mites treat again 5 to 7 days. your battery charger should be set to the 12v scale. not the 24v. clip on the red vaporizer clip to the red charger clip, black to black with the other one. should work now.
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I treated mine about three weeks ago and saw quite a few mites in the oil pan. Went back 12 days later and could not get the vaporizer to work tried it 3 times on one hive and 2 times on the other. Have to try it in the spring for I don't have the money to buy another one now that Christmas is coming up.
Ken
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Ken, the electronics on the vaporizer are really quite simple: an electric circuit that heats up a resistance element that produces heat. If it isn't working, you probably have a disconnected or loose wire at some point which causes a broken circuit. Check it out carefully and fix it yourself for free without having to pay a cent. If you don't feel confident enough to do the job yourself, I'm sure you can find a friend willing to give you a hand. ;)
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Thanks efmesch, since I was a journal electrification for 15 years and got tired of traveling and supporting two homes I got a job that started out not paying as much as an apartment maintain supervisor for 25 years, just a little background. I did test it and to best of my knowledge it is the gloo plug burned up, don't know where they got it but cannot find one like it around these parts, plus the screw holding it in was so corroded that it broke off taking the plug out.
Ken
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If you have a question about your equipment or your methods boil a little water in the vaporizer
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KB, we have seen the glow plug have a high resistance in the threads after a few uses, You may try backing it out and re tightening. I would like a pm or post if you find the problem even if it is a burnout. Thanks
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I have a couple extra heilyser glow plugs if you need one....Just send a PM with your contact info.
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Thanks, I am going to try a few more test on it to make sure the plug is bad as ohms resistance and screw in resistance which I had not though of, thanks CBT and Lbutou thanks may be contracting you. Oh yes did the water reason I know it didn't work.
Ken
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Ef;
My concern would be that the vaporizor was getting too hot too quickly. The OA vaporizes but turns to formic rather than OA Crystals... Is that why you do not see much in the way of vapor? Is that why the treatment seem less effective than they should?? I really do not know, just a thought... Are you using enough of the Oxalic Acid in the pan? I know, the pup pestering the big dog could get me bit, but I had to ask :P
My Varrox takes about two minutes and ten, to twenty seconds to vaporize enough OA to treat a three medium hive..
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FWIW, you want your vaporizer in the 310-370 degree range (F). On the cold side, only the water boils off, on the hot side it flashes to formic acid. You can test your vaporizer with an infrared thermometer. :-)
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Perhaps my mistake was in assuming that the battery charger wouldn't produce as much heat producing electricity as a fully charged battery. I wanted to compensate for the lower power by racking up the charge from 12 to 24 volts. I have no means of testing the temp the vaporizer produces. When I tested it out before placing the vaporizer inside the hive it took five minutes to turn all the test OA (a bit less than half of a level teaspoon) into vapor.
When I try it out again, I'll keep the charger setting on 12 volts and see what happens.
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You may need a battery with more amp hour capacity or weight. I would think a good car battery is fine. I ran a cable from our utility golf cart battery and it works good.
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I bought a deep cycle battery for my vaporizer. The battery isn't big it is for a motorized wheelchair. Think I give $78.00 for it. They said to charge it 12 volts DC at 2 amps.
I've used it on 57 hives and it still vaporized the oxalic acid.
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Hooking the charger to a small battery, even a lawn mower battery may even things out. Looking forward to your next test.
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Yesterday I did a trial run of my vaporizer (outside the hive) using my battery charger set on 12 Volts, rapid charge. After five miuntes of not getting anywhere, I changed the setting to 24 V and it started vaporizing. Out of concern, lest at that setting it would get too hot, I alternated the setting, shifting back and forth (about 1/2 a minute each time) between 12 and 24 volts. The OA powder vaporized nicely til it was all gone after five minutes. Now I have to try it inside the hives.
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I cleaned my vaporizer and put back together and boiled water out of it in 2 and a half minutes, I believed it was the set screw not making good contract on the prob of the glow plug.
Ken
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Good going Ken, So now you have a "new" vaporizer for free. :)
You're a man after my own heart. :yes: :yes: