Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on January 10, 2014, 08:37:57 pm
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How many frames do you use in a deep langstroth?
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I have 2 8-frame deeps for brood, and I use 8 frames in each. If things go well this year, I may swap to 7 frames in my 8-frame medium supers as an experiment.
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How many frames do you use in a deep langstroth?
You are going to hate me for this; :P is it for an 8 frame or a 10 frame box? The standard procedure with new frames is to fill the box till the comb is drawn. Some people then find advantage to run only 9 in a ten frame box. This is in the brood box. In a honey super I fill the box with new comb and then after the first extraction you can space them out to 9 or even 8 in a nominal 10 frame box. It makes for fatter, easier to uncap honey frames.
Just to make you scratch your head, a number of people shave the sides of the frames slightly and shoe horn 11 frames into a 10 frame lang brood box but I dont think that is something you are going to pursue for a while yet.
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Jaybird, if you are going to run a 10 frame box, use 10. If you are going to run an 8 frame box, run 8.
Keep things simple in the beginning and stretch your wings once you've learned how to fly. ;)
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8 frames of foundation in an 8 frame box.
10 frames of foundation in a 10 frame box.
Less and you will live to regret it.
One less frame of drawn comb in the brood chamber will give you wide frames of honey near the top and thinner frames of brood in the center of the frames. One less in the honey supers will give thicker frames of honey and will uncap much easier.
I run 10 frames in all, since I am mostly interested in raising more bees. The occasional box of honey I get is harder to uncap, but the extra brood frames make up for it.
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okay, i encouraged jen to start this thread, and i will differ with you guys......
slow, jen is talking Langstroth hives, not 8 frame hives.
i do what crofter mentioned. i run 9 frames in a 10 frame langstroth deep brood box, and 8 frames in a 10 frame langstroth medium super....
if i have frames that need to be drawn in either sizes i will run the 10 frames and drop down as they are drawn, or when i add foundation to either, i will adjust until all frames are drawn until i am at 9 in my deeps and 8 in my honey supers.
skip the shaving frames thing, let's not confuse a new beekeeper on this, just my HO, not sure i understand myself why this is done.
iddee, i know you said 10 frames in a 10 frame box, "less and you will regret it"......i run 9 and 8 frames and i don't regret it...... :D
also,there is nothing hard about this IF you have drawn frames that you are working with, doesn't matter if you are a new keep or an older keep, in my HO.
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always run 10 frames in 10 frame equipment if used for a brood box. Run 10 in in 10 frame honey supers until they are drawn out. Then you can run 9 frames in a 10 frame honey super. The reason for running 9 frames in a 10 frame honey super is the bees will draw them out past the frames if they are evenly spaced. This makes it easier to uncap the honey for extraction. YOu are shooting yourself in the foot running 9 frames in a brood box. Less room for queen to lay and if they get shoved to one side the bees will draw out the 10th frame of comb where the frame should have been attaching it to the top cover and sides
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NO, I DID NOT. I said less than 10 frames of ""FOUNDATION"".
I then said you CAN run less frames of drawn comb.
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slow, jen is talking Langstroth hives, not 8 frame hives.
Are 10- and 8-frame hives not both Langs?
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riverbee,
I'm still plenty green as a Beek, but you have me confused on a number of issues.
slow, jen is talking Langstroth hives, not 8 frame hives.
Since when is an 8 frame Langstroth not a "Langstroth"???
i do what crofter mentioned. i run 9 frames in a 10 frame langstroth deep brood box.....
skip the shaving frames thing, let's not confuse a new beekeeper on this, just my HO, not sure i understand myself why this is done.
Why would you run fewer frames in your Brood box?
Less frames = less comb = less cells = less laying space = less bees = less honey???
Personally I don't do it, but shaving down frames and squeezing an extra in the brood box means...
More comb = more cells = more laying space = more bees = more honey!
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Slow- if you go with 7, what will you be experimenting with?
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Already talked with Jen about this, but watching with interest. One of the hardest things for me to figure out when I first began helping with bees was sorting through all the different answers/methods.
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iddee, my apologies, i missed the 10 frames of foundation from your post.
as far as running 9 fully drawn frames in the deep broods, guess i am the one to be different, have done this for years.
10 frame hives vs the 8 frame hive configuration? in langstroth terms, no there are 8 frame hives made vs the 10 frames. when i think of langstroth hives, i think in terms of a 10 framer, not the eight frame hives now made today. i think these are referred to as the *english hives?
(*correction, commonly referred to now as 'garden hive')
and as to what you said moots.....less frames=less combs=less cells=less laying space=less bees=less honey....
not true moots, math doesn't always define bees and let's say i get 950 pounds or more of honey out of 5 or 6 hives with my method, well i will stick to it. as far as shaving frames and squeezing more in....in my HO, shaving frames and squeezing more in doesn't give you what you think you are achieving. if you think those shaved frames moots give you more honey, you are mistaken.
btw if you want to make comb honey with foundationless frames, in a 10 frame langstroth box, or shaving and squeezing an extra frame in, i can tell you this, it's gonna look pretty sad. if you don't make foundationless comb honey and are shaving frames off to squeeze more in, then i wish you well at uncapping these..... :D
EDIT: i just want to add to this, consider a langstroth 10 frame deep and placing 9 fully drawn frames in, rather than 10....maybe better ventilation and better wintering? not rolling so many bees or fighting to get the frames out? medium supers.....if you have less than 10 frames, say 8 or 9, uncapping these will be easier, and also if you think you get more honey with 10 frames, this is not true.
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Lazy- Sure is like raising kids!
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Slow- if you go with 7, what will you be experimenting with?
Thicker (wider?) comb and easier uncapping.
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actually trying to stay out of this for the most part, but think theres a bit of confusion between supers and brood frames going on???
i dont know anyone who shaves frames for supers, those are run with less frames, not more for thicker comb and easier uncapping.. As for the...... no. no. Backing away.. slowly..... I run ten/ten Sticking to that for now ;D
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Lazy- You crack me up!
I know, we already discussed 11 frames... it's all good ~wink~
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This subject started with riv and me talking about deeps
Are deeps and supers the same thing?
No, don't answer that yet. Scrambled eggs in head for the night
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Simple answer for that one. Supers are for honey. they can be deeps, mediums, or shallows. they go on above the brood boxes.
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This subject started with riv and me talking about deeps
Are deeps and supers the same thing?
No, don't answer that yet. Scrambled eggs in head for the night
Think of it like this. A super is like a superstructure, built above the base. The brood chambers or boxes are like the base or foundation (not foundation as used in frames, but like a house foundation).
super = above
But now to confuse things: some people use all deeps, so there would be brood in bottom deeps and honey in the top deeps (or supers).
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lazy,
I'm with you, think we have quite a bit of confusion going on... ;D
10 frame hives vs the 8 frame hive configuration? in langstroth terms, no there are 8 frame hives made vs the 10 frames. when i think of langstroth hives, i think in terms of a 10 framer, not the eight frame hives now made today. i think these are referred to as the english hives?
riverbee,
Not to split hairs, but while I can appreciate that you may not think of an 8 frame hive as a langstroth...Your doing so is the first I've seen or heard of it. Admittedly, I've only been involved in bees a little over a year. But in that limited time I've attended 30+ local club meetings in two different cities, two State Association Conferences, a National ABF conference, and spent countless hours online in bee forums and watching videos. And you are the first person I've heard claim that an 8 frame hive is not a Langstroth. In addition, for whatever it's worth, both Wikipedia and BeeSource's definition and description of a Lang includes 8 frames.
I'm not sure, but I think the term "english hive" or "english garden hive" is usually associated with basically any Lang with the cute little "A-Frame" top cover. I think it's more of a marketing term than an actual type of hive....but I may be mistaken.
and as to what you said moots.....less frames=less combs=less cells=less laying space=less bees=less honey....
not true moots, math doesn't always define bees and let's say i get 950 pounds or more of honey out of 5 or 6 hives with my method, well i will stick to it. as far as shaving frames and squeezing more in....in my HO, shaving frames and squeezing more in doesn't give you what you think you are achieving. if you think those shaved frames moots give you more honey, you are mistaken.
btw if you want to make comb honey with foundationless frames, in a 10 frame langstroth box, or shaving and squeezing an extra frame in, i can tell you this, it's gonna look pretty sad. if you don't make foundationless comb honey and are shaving frames off to squeeze more in, then i wish you well at uncapping these..... :D
To clairfy: I run all 8 frame medium equipment...8 frames in the brood box...8 frames in the honey supers.
The common variations to this approach that I'm familiar with and can appreciate the argument for, albeit maybe not agree with the conclusions are...First, run one fewer frame in the HONEY SUPER allowing for thicker, easier to uncap frames. And Second, shave down your frames to squeeze one extra frame in the BROOD BOX to allow for more laying space for the queen in the same box.
Neither I, nor anyone reputable that I know of has ever implied shaving down and squeezing extra frames in the HONEY SUPERS! I'm really confused where you got the idea that I was suggesting shaving down and squeezing extra frames into a honey super???
EDIT: i just want to add to this, consider a langstroth 10 frame deep and placing 9 fully drawn frames in, rather than 10....maybe better ventilation and better wintering? not rolling so many bees or fighting to get the frames out? medium supers.....if you have less than 10 frames, say 8 or 9, uncapping these will be easier...
Not sure if you are talking about running 9 frames in a 10 frame deep as a BROOD BOX or HONEY SUPER. If you're talking about doing it in a Honey Super, while I don't necessarily agree with all the claimed advantages and benefits, there are many that do, and it's a fairly common and accepted practice.
If you are talking about doing it in your Brood boxes, I would think, if you're not alone there, you're in a VERY VERY SMALL minority. I'd be curious to hear what you think the advantages are...
and also if you think you get more honey with 10 frames, this is not true.
Again, this is something that can and has been debated ad nauseam. However, to the best of my knowledge, any and all claims of which method actually produces "more Honey" is purely subjective and based on "opinion". I haven't seen anything resembling a controlled or scientific study offering data on this subject.
So, concerning the more honey with 10 frames approach...while you say, "this is not true", I think the truth is, no one REALLY knows. Therefore, what you and others think on both sides of this debate are simply opinions. :)
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for my own hive I basically utilize 10 frame equipment and I operate these with 9 frames in them once they can really be called comb (see Iddee's original post).... that is 9 frames in the brood nest and 9 frames in the honey supers..... 9 frames top to bottom of the stack.
9 frames in a 10 frame box is pretty much standard operating procedure in most commercial operation... so I do some of this simply because that is the way my mentor's did and secondly at least here I think it definitely adds to the ventilation up thru the stack during the summer months < it can get hot enough here that comb can and will melt down entirely and this invariable only happens in boxes filled with 10 frames and usually on the outer wall that receive the most direct sunlight.
at the bee lab we operate 8 frame and since we are just starting up all these now have 8 frames. this may or may not change in the future depending upon what the boss wants.
as far as I know 8 and 10 frames are both langstroth style hives. it is my understanding that english garden style hives are somewhat a different dimension and perhaps we can get BARBARIAN to comment on the definition of an english garden hive???? this subject to me can get quite confusing since there are numerous other names like jumbos and national and the list goes on and on and sometime in one place a set of boxes and frames is called one thing and in some place else it is called something entirely different.
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I couldnt remember the rationale for 9 frames in the brood boxes but see where it could mesh well when running 9 frames in the supers. I dont have the heat ventilation concern in my climate and feel that 10 frames in brood box tight together give less brace and burr comb so the combs are more smooth sided than when developed spaced out.
Would staggered frames alter the amount of bridging between upper and lower frames compared to running same numbers top to bottom?
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I run 10 frames in both the boxes I raise brood in and the honey boxes.
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According to Michael Bush;
Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400
Cells on one medium frame of 5.4mm foundation 4620
Cells on one medium frame of 4.9mm foundation 5544
So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.
14000 cells seems like a lot to me. Granted... I don't shave or space, so yall will have to make your own conclusions :)
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The number of available cells wouldnt necessarily be proportional to the actual observed population if other conditions are the same. It could be a controlling factor perhaps with a single deep brood. Closer space between comb faces could allow a given number of bees to cover more brood in cold conditions. What might work fine for someone pulling tight frames out in a warmer climate with Italian bees would be a curse for me spring and fall with my heavy propolizing bees.
Some great gurus have touted that but I bet it is a very small percentage of hives that actually run the 11 frame configuration requiring narrower than standard frames.
Isn't beekeeping fantastic? Without all the different possibilities and one size fits all, it wouldnt be near as interesting!
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"Simple answer for that one. Supers are for honey. they can be deeps, mediums, or shallows. they go on above the brood boxes."
Ahhhh Finally a Simple Answer..... thaaaank yooooooou laaaaaaazy
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"Think of it like this. A super is like a superstructure, built above the base. The brood chambers or boxes are like the base or foundation (not foundation as used in frames, but like a house foundation). super = above But now to confuse things: some people use all deeps, so there would be brood in bottom deeps and honey in the top deeps (or supers)."
Hu!! And yet another simple answer!!! Maybe I can get some sleep tonight without butterfly's in my head :D
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According to Michael Bush;
Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400
Cells on one medium frame of 5.4mm foundation 4620
Cells on one medium frame of 4.9mm foundation 5544
So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.
Had to read this one twice but I get it. I see the 11 frame as a possible solution to CCD. Make more bees!
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That CCD term might be getting a bit dated Jaybird ;) I think the insurance companies are starting to say you have to claim something that is identifiable before you see any payout. Perhaps too many times CCD got used as a catchall excuse for PPB ;)
I think you will find that many guru websites make claims and associations that real close impartial scrutiny would put caution flags on.
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as far as I know 8 and 10 frames are both langstroth style hives. it is my understanding that english garden style hives are somewhat a different dimension and perhaps we can get BARBARIAN to comment on the definition of an english garden hive???? this subject to me can get quite confusing since there are numerous other names like jumbos and national and the list goes on and on and sometime in one place a set of boxes and frames is called one thing and in some place else it is called something entirely different.
It may be like what we all call carbonated beverages. Around here, we just call everything a Coke (when somebody says they're going to get a Coke and come back with a Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, it's not a surprise). In other parts of the country, people call them pop or soda. It's all the same thing. ;D
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""So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.""
So a queen is capable of laying 1500 to 2000 eggs a day. At her peak, in 21 days she will lay42,000 eggs in 21 days, then bees will emerge to give her new cells to lay in. I have read it takes a frame of food to raise a frame of brood. 3 days as egg, nine days capped, nine days being fed. 18,000 being fed at any one time, or a need for 2 1/2 frames of food.
Now, at max, 7 frames of brood and2 1/2 frames, with 1/2 frame to spare, equals 9 frames. Any more than, according to those figures, is just extra insurance.
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Iddee, in your last line I think you have a math error. Just for a leading question since I am not sold on the close centre frame idea, do you think they might get going quicker in a cold climate with the tighter space between frames? At the start of the season I dont think the queen can lay full out but has to scale up gradually to the point where there are enough bees to temperature control everything she lays. If it were bare foundation could they conceivably draw it quicker at the tighter spacing?
If, and I mean if it actually works better, I bet it is some factor other than the additional cell numbers that makes it work.
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OK. 6 frames of brood. That means an additional frame of insurance.
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as far as I know the primary reason most commercial folks run 9 frames in a ten frame box is for two reason...
1) this make pulling one of the middle frames for inspection purpose so much easier than with 10 frames in the box < this then reduce the time and frustration of the most simple type of inspection.
2) since your frames are a bit less crowded the brood nest is a bit less congested when you do move the hive < since transporting a hive often happens in the warmer month this advantage is much larger than might be obvious... they are trying to avoid excessive crowding and overheating which can and will kill a hive very quickly.
a snip...
So a queen is capable of laying 1500 to 2000 eggs a day. At her peak, in 21 days she will lay42,000 eggs in 21 days.
tecumseh...
one needs to recognize that this is often stated at The MAXIMUM egg laying capacity of the queen.... not the mean nor the medium or the mode. and the number is for 2000 eggs per day X 21 days. for 1500 the figure would be more like 31500,
my quick math says 18X8X2X25 equals about 7200 cells/frame X 9 frames equal 64800. or for a queen laying a constant 2000 eggs per day this should yield 5.8 frames max for brood rearing.
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Yep. That's what I was saying. At her peak, meant max, 2000 eggs per day. Below that, fewer frames are needed. Meaning a 9 frame deep should be more than enough for her max ability and storage of immediate need food.
Quit arguing, tec. It's 6, not a half dozen. :D
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Wouldn't closer the queen is to having no "surplus" space the more possible for her to be slowed down by backfilling of the brood nest?
Is nobody going to touch the theory of 11 narrow frame advantage?
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Quit arguing, tec. It's 6, not a half dozen. :D
I just got my rum and coke!! Keep going!! I am quite enjoying this!!!
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Lazybkpr, I agree you can get more eggs in the box with shaved 11 frames but how do you figure more groceries? Put that glass down and talk to me! :laugh:
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Nope, i can type with one hand!!! :laugh:
I'm not claiming anything!! I am still having a hard time understanding how to make more room in a box that remains the same size. I guess I can understand more cells, but that also equals smaller or narrower cells.. Right now, I understand 10/10 and its working quite well so I'll just stick right with that. When I exceed 50 hives I will have a bit of leeway to experiment without affecting production.
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I was intrigued enough with the idea in regard to supposedly better performance in cold climate that I custom made up 60 narrow frames. So far the discipline to experiment with that idea, somehow seems lacking! :) I have been using them for foundationless drome comb fro drone culling. I soon found out that a lot of these cutesy ideas get lost or all mixed up (snaffu?) with other needs to swap frames around.
I sometimes wonder if some of these claimed wonders ever actually happened outside of someones keyboard! :laugh:
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Lazy, you should see me and tec go at it on another forum where politics is allowed. You would think we were gonna kill each other. You would never guess we were the best of friends. :D
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Have you read Michale Bushs site Crofter? He shaves at least for some of his hives and has a decent post about the ins and outs. I have read other peoples reasons along the way. In theory it looks good to me, much like running 9 frames in the supers does. I am still STUCK in the interchangeability/ universal fit, boxes/frames and standardization.. At this point in my buildup that has been a greater boon than shaved or spaced frames.
Like you, I am still working out keyboard methods from real methods. Been around bees for a long time, and learned too late the questions I should have been asking when I had the chance.
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Lazybkpr, that is the trick to learning--knowing the right questions to ask. My son calls it "threshold knowledge" that you need to be able to sort the wheat from the chaffe. It takes a while to reach the point where you can really start to learn.
Interchangeability is a big plus for sure. Getting an established way of doing things and getting rid of gadgetry is another. That is something that Michael Bush no doubt has down to a tee. I would like to look into his hives from the last 5 years and see how many of the theoretical things are still being done on an ongoing basis.
Just recently I saw a signature line that reads "practicality trumps ideology" Sometimes I get the feeling that some of the still claimed ideology has met up with practical reality.
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Lazybkpr, that is the trick to learning--knowing the right questions to ask. My son calls it "threshold knowledge" that you need to be able to sort the wheat from the chaffe. It takes a while to reach the point where you can really start to learn.
Interchangeability is a big plus for sure. Getting an established way of doing things and getting rid of gadgetry is another. That is something that Michael Bush no doubt has down to a tee. I would like to look into his hives from the last 5 years and see how many of the theoretical things are still being done on an ongoing basis.
Just recently I saw a signature line that reads "practicality trumps ideology" Sometimes I get the feeling that some of the still claimed ideology has met up with practical reality.
Well said! He lives close enough I could make the drive, getting the invite is the hard part!
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I can see that this is gonna be a loooong read. BRB. Getting my dinner
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K! I'm all situated with my lap on my lap and holding a bowl of soup, don't make me laugh or the soups going onto my lap. :laugh:
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Why do bees hum?
They don't know the words.
One day a woman went for a walk in her neighborhood and came across a boy with some puppies. 'Would you like a puppy? They aren't ready for new homes quite yet, but they will be in a few weeks!'
'Oh, they're adorable,' the lady said. 'What kind of dogs are they?'
'I think these are bee inspectors.'
'OK. I'll tell my husband.'
So she went home and told her husband. About a week later he came across the lad and the puppies were very active.
'Hey, Mister. Want a puppy?'
'I think my wife spoke with you last week. What kind of dogs are these?'
'Oh. These are beekeepers.'
'I thought you said last week that they were bee inspectors.'
'Yeah, but they've opened their eyes since then.'
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~Wink~ Still holding my soup... and a smile
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;D
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Finely catching up on this thread a standard Langstroth hive is the hive Rev Langstroth invented and patented back in ----. It consisted of the Langstroth removable frame and a 10 frame box. so when referring to a Langstroth hive we should be talking the 10 frame super. Any thing else would be classified as a modified Langstroth as it is still using the Langstroth frames.
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Okay.. if ya want to get technical about it...
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Soooo, my hive has some issues to deal with before I can split this spring. This is one of them. I have one hive, double deep. This the brood box. It has 9 frames in it.
I don't have a mentor, so much of my last three years has been learning through reading and youtube. I used only 9 frames because it was stated that nine frames in a 10 frame box would leave room in between the frames for mites to drop off and freely fall down thru the screened bottom board onto the sticky board. Made sense to me... then.
In this picture, if you look to the left and count three frames to the right, you will see a waxed up mess between frame 3 and frame 4. These two frames are completely waxed into place, I haven't been able to move them since last spring.
All's I need to know is:
1. How to get them out.
2. How to clean them up.
3. Beings this is the brood box, when is it safe to do this?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs12.postimg.cc%2Fds7632x4p%2FDSCF7631.jpg&hash=2b7d8d748b2bd814b6c8c197ea30369d9e1b4810) (http://postimg.cc/image/ds7632x4p/)
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When the temp is above 65 deg and between 1 and 3 Pm. so the max forager bees will be out of the hive. Pry them apart after removing a couple of out side frames to make room so you can remove each frame to clean off the bur comb.
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:D :laugh: :laugh: :D
And now the real reason large operations run 8 or 9 frames in a 10 frame super 8)
Try using a bee blower to evacuate and blow bees out of a super with 10 frames.
Then try and do the same with 8 or 9 frames in a 10 frame box and you will know why
If you have ten frames in a box you have to take one out to be able to blow all the bees out, pull one frame while holding the bee blower hose, drop the hose and it starts to dance, no telling where it will land, one hand with a hive tool, where to put the excess frame, takes too much time and bother.
If you have 8 or 9 frames its like browsing through old LP records, you walk through them with your fingers and it goes fast, no need to pull out a frame ;)
mvh Edward :P
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Ummmmm................Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ?????
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If you try to blow bees on tightly packed frames they hang on and aren't easily displaced and hide
If you can easily separate the frames a bit you can blast them with more air and move the frames and blow the bees of the frames and boxes.
mvh Edward
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nice addition Edward.
and qw I suspect much like your description in the use of the bee blower that there is also greater ventilation up thru the stack.... not so important when it is cold but here in Texas definitely a benefit when it is hot.
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If you get in there early the brood area should be in the upper box. Have an extra box and move the outside and moveable frames with their bees, into the new box untill you have only the stuck together ones in the box. You can turn it upside down and tap on the frame bottoms and perhaps get them free of the box then split them apart. If they are waxed to the bottom board twisting the body back and forth is better than jusst hauling up on it.
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jen, do you have 8 frames or 9 frames in that box?
the reason you have the waxed mess between 3 and 4 is because the frames are not spaced evenly. i use 9 frames in a 10 frame langstroth deep, i don't do this for mite drop, but for other reasons, ventilation, and ease of removing frames, examination etc. i space them evenly across. do as apis said to pry, remove them, and clean them up, then ensure that your frames are spaced evenly. or you can do as crofter said with an extra box.
also, if you use or start out with undrawn foundation, you must start with 10 frames, as soon as these are all fully drawn, remove one frame, space evenly, so that you can go to 9 frames.
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I don't have problems with hive overheating in hot weather, but wouldn't the extra space in a brood box make it harder to keep warm and demand more bees and energy to keep the brood warm?
mvh Edward :P
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edward, there is no 'extra space', with 9 frames spaced evenly, the frames are drawn out to bee space between the frames, and at the ends. hope i understood your question? so no, i don't see that it makes it harder for them to keep warm, or demand more bees and energy to keep the brood warm.
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Are/ dose the extra space make longer/taller bees?
mvh Edward :P
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no more than 10 frames makes short bees...... :laugh:
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I have read that using 11 narrower frames in a 10 frame lang brood box allows the bees to brood up quicker in cool weather because a given number of bees can cover more brood if the spaces between frames are narrower. Local conditions~
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Edward- ""If you try to blow bees on tightly packed frames they hang on and aren't easily displaced and hide. If you can easily separate the frames a bit you can blast them with more air and move the frames and blow the bees of the frames and boxes. ""
Wouldn't this produce a lot of pissed off bees?
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Crofter- ""Have an extra box and move the outside and moveable frames with their bees, into the new box untill you have only the stuck together ones in the box. You can turn it upside down and tap on the frame bottoms and perhaps get them free of the box then split them apart. If they are waxed to the bottom board twisting the body back and forth is better than jusst hauling up on it.""
I like Apis and Crofter's ideas, but with Crofter's I fear endangering the queen with all of the jostling and turning the hive upside down.
But she would most likely be in the top box right? But if it's a 65 day she could have migrated to the brood box?
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jen, she could be in either, and i would be hesitant to turn the box upside down. the wax they build on the bottoms of the frames is sometimes 'ladder comb'. enables the bees to come in the front door and 'go up the ladder' to the frame. you will also find this between the deeps, same concept, don't scrape it all off, just my HO.
EDIT~ would like to add jen, if you get a couple of frames out, it will give you the space to wiggle additional frames back and forth(one at a time and move to the empty space to work another) and either slide the frame over or pull the frame up gently with your hive tool to release it.
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Edward- ""If you try to blow bees on tightly packed frames they hang on and aren't easily displaced and hide. If you can easily separate the frames a bit you can blast them with more air and move the frames and blow the bees of the frames and boxes. ""
Wouldn't this produce a lot of pissed off bees?
That is also what I thought.
I help a friend harvest 15 hives and we pulled about 900 kilograms =1 984 pounds in 2 hours
In the air it looked like Armageddon and the sky was full of bees infront of the hives.
Turning a super up 90degrees and blowing the bees into the air about 1-1.5 yards/meters in front of the hive, air speed is not so much of a factor as volume of air and surprising the bees.
To minimize the risk of robbing we fed them all at the same time when all the honey was harvested.
We treeted them for varroa mites and started their Winter feeding.
From the time we took the last super of honey to we had fed all the hives it took about 30minutes during this time all the bees were back inside the hives, exept for a few on bits of burr comb and it was peaceful again in the bee yard.
mvh Edward :P
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Yes it would be good to know where the queen is. She could be anywhere but most likely in the top box with the brood. If you dont find her there then proceed to the bottom box; That is where the pair of frames are burred together isn't it?
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When I have frames stuck together with the frame under it I put the little part of the hive tool under the topbar an prie it upwards using the nearest frame as a support, no squished bees ;D
mvh Edward :P
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In the air it looked like Armageddon and the sky was full of bees in front of the hives.Turning a super up 90 degrees and blowing the bees into the air about 1-1.5 yards/meters in front of the hive, airspeed is not so much of a factor as volume of air and surprising the bees.
A few fotos
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Fshyk7gbnz%2FFoto0126.jpg&hash=ed3f6f1ba33bb14eff600fea2b6c1efc0f39071a) (http://postimg.cc/image/shyk7gbnz/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Fckzsaqj9r%2FFoto0127.jpg&hash=d176536b9ba0a0438585d99bb2590cb2d133da3b) (http://postimg.cc/image/ckzsaqj9r/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs10.postimg.cc%2Fqbhhe7jhx%2FFoto0128.jpg&hash=1749174694be1ded59a62ece38a77184a3e5bda8) (http://postimg.cc/image/qbhhe7jhx/)
mvh Edward :P
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OK.. sorry, been busy!!!
I am with Mrs River.. it has been my experience that bees keep the BEE SPACE the same, weather you run 8 frames or eleven.. given time they will return the spacing between the combs to what they consider Juuuuust right.. so the only advantage to me would seem that with an extra frame for with which the queen could produce brood in, or the bees could put winter stores in... I am no researcher so I cant tell you about wintering and mites. and if more frames or less have an effect\.. I already have other methods to deal with those things so those reasons are unimportant. (to me) When I can see research that difinitively proves one way or the other is better I may give it a go. Until then, I use ten frames, because it means my brood frames and super combs are the same size. I dont have to keep track of differences.. narrow frames or thick frames etc.. to me that is enough advantage to stick with ten... for now :)
Jen..
If I was given that mess of brace comb to fix...
I would move those conjoined frames to the outside edge of the brood box to minimize brood in them. Perhaps, even move them upward IF they can be removed as one..
You know I use foundation-less frames. SO I have had my fair share of messes to fix. I have found that pulling the frames and using the hot kife to "decap" JUST like you would if you were taking the cappings off honey comb will instantly flatten out those combs.
If the bees have drawn the comb sideways, that section alone will need to be removed/scraped off/cut out so they can repair that spot correctly. Put the frames back in with correct spacing, and they should do a FINE job of repairing it...
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I would smoke the bees out from between the frames and then use a long serrated knife (think bread knife) to cut the burr and brace comb in half. Makes life so much easier to remove the frame this way. After removing the frame take your knife and trim up all of the burr and brace comb. Now this may require you to do some heavy trimming, if you don't get to the start of the sideways comb they will remake the sideways comb.
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Many northern beekeepers pull 1 or 2 frames per box and center the frames tightly under Winter making more ventilation on the sides.
This prevents moldy frames, usually they take pollen frames out.
The thinking behind this is you can take them out in the fall or after the Winter because they are moldy ;)
mvh Edward :P
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Not sure why you would run 9 frames in a ten frame brood box, They are only going to pull the cell so deep for brood. If the cells are too deep I doubt the queen would lay in them.
For those of you who do use 9 in a 10 brood box, do you see brood in the extended cells?
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no extended brood cells g.
i run 9 frames for a number of reasons, (fully drawn comb) in brood boxes; ventilation, relieve congestion, ease of manipulation of frames, less rolling of the bees, and for me, a northern keep, a smidge more eek space between frames for more bees to cluster in our extreme winter weather. i said in an earlier post about not having extra space, there may be a little extra space......
i think lazy said it best or being on the right track about bees:
"it has been my experience that bees keep the BEE SPACE the same, weather you run 8 frames or eleven.. given time they will return the spacing between the combs to what they consider Juuuuust right.."
they do. the bees know the difference between what is brood comb and what is honey and honey/pollen storage comb. the frames on the ends will be drawn out thicker than the brood comb frames, and to a certain degree takes up the extra space in a 9 frame deep; because they will draw these out much thicker, and also, you might find that the brood food, the semi circle, above the brood might be drawn out a little thicker. overall the brood combs remain the same, so there are no 'extended cells' in the brood frames. brood frame draw out is constant, or always the same depth , it is not the same depth/width as the honey frames. this can change with the season and the bees.
how does this change? what lazy said, and, you southern keeps have to remember that us northern keeps need our 2nd deeps heavy with honey. we don't have the option to open a hive and feed, or feed at all; unless our deeps are heavy, we leave an extra super on, candy board, feed on top the frames, etc.... the bees will convert the 2nd deep to winter stores. i think my bees winter better with 9 frames, rather than 10 frames. a little extra space to cluster more bees between frames, and thick, heavy honey frames to winter on. call me crazy but that is my method of madness.
i don't find any moldy frames come spring edward, it get's too cold here, and the frames that remain full on the outsides are good feed for spring bees.
hope i made sense?
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Well that made a bunch of sense except for the part about them knowing the difference between storage cells and brood cells. Can you elaborate on that for my pea brain. My bees will use cells for both when the time calls for it. My question on this is, if they pull out deep cells in the brood chamber for honey storage will they trim them back for brood rearing? Not trying to argue here just curious as to what you are seeing.
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I have seen deep drawn frames for honey storage that when the brood area expands in the spring the cells get chewed back to proper brood cell depth. There probably are other benefits from the use of only nine frames but I find there is plenty of room in a full box if you pull either of the side frames and shift the others over. I prefer to have the shoulders of the side bars tight together so there is no squeezing of bees in between them when I shift them around. I dont have the extreme heat that you southern people have to contend with.
I do agree with riverbee though on running only 9 in the honey boxes after their initial drawing.
I see in Jens conundrum that the two gummed up frames seem to have a wider than normal spacing. I would conjecture that might have lead to the burr and brace comb in that area.
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"Well that made a bunch of sense except for the part about them knowing the difference between storage cells and brood cells. Can you elaborate on that for my pea brain. My bees will use cells for both when the time calls for it. My question on this is, if they pull out deep cells in the brood chamber for honey storage will they trim them back for brood rearing? Not trying to argue here just curious as to what you are seeing."
i love your pea brain g.... :D you answered your own question, LOL. this is no different like say the queen lays up in the first honey super, chase her out of there and the bees take care of the brood and once all hatched, revert the comb back to honey storage. given the extra space in 9 frames, the honey frames are drawn out thicker. let's say you go in and mess up the nursery, and place a honey frame in the center of the brood nest, what do the bees do? the bees commence fixing what you just did.
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let's say you go in and mess up the nursery, and place a honey frame in the center of the brood nest, what do the bees do? the bees commence fixing what you just did.
Not so, I did just that last summer. Removed a frame of brood from the middle of the brood nest and put a frame of foundation in its place (yes I know, a rookie move but was in a hurry). What do the little darlings do?? well with the queen one one side of the foundation and no queen on the other side, yep they raised another queen. Two queens in the same hive divided by a frame of foundation.
I guess you could say they fixed what I messed up!
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I am sure the bees were quite happy with their solution! Was that wax or plastic foundation?
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wax foundation. I had done a successful walk away split of sorts.
Bees are bees and do as thy please!
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Not so, I did just that last summer. Removed a frame of brood from the middle of the brood nest and put a frame of foundation in its place (yes I know, a rookie move but was in a hurry). What do the little darlings do?? well with the queen one one side of the foundation and no queen on the other side, yep they raised another queen.
That is what is done when checker boarding a hive to reduce congestion to prevent swarming and produce more drawn comb and or make splits with the brood frames. I wonder if had you had not done so, if they would have still made a queen because they wanted to supersede her.
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs10.postimg.cc%2Fykm20c8j9%2Fwide_frame_of_honey.jpg&hash=4e1bd9f8565e13404eb95d2e630aee9071defa82) (http://postimg.cc/image/ykm20c8j9/)
Here is one for the nine framer!!
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Well that's just beautiful!
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...........and easy to uncap!
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"Here is one for the nine framer!!"
........ :D
g3, that's a gorgeous thick frame of honey, was that one of yours?
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Nope can not take credit for that one.
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that depends. if you're using the deeps for brood rearing, all 10 frames. If as a extracting super, then 9 or even 8 frames. The bees will draw the cells deeper in the 9 or 8 fame supers making them much easier to uncap
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs10.postimg.cc%2Fykm20c8j9%2Fwide_frame_of_honey.jpg&hash=4e1bd9f8565e13404eb95d2e630aee9071defa82) (http://postimg.cc/image/ykm20c8j9/)
Here is one for the nine framer!!
barry i use 9 frames in a 10 frame langstroth brood chamber, we already had some discussion on it earlier, but this great picture that g3 posted is a medium honey frame. i use 8 frames in a 10 frame medium honey super, and this is how thick my honey frames can get. and yes, soooo much easier to uncap.
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Won't you wind up with an extra amount of honey in with the cappings when the frames are that fat? How do you uncap? Cappings spinner? Hot knife? Plane? Scratcher?
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i use a maxant uncapping plane, and uncap into an uncapping tub. when all of the frames have been spun out, yes, then i use cappings bags in my extractor to spin the remaining honey out. the uncapping tub is what you buy anywhere. 2 parts, a metal strainer, and a filter. the cappings sit on top the strainer until i can spin them out, meanwhile honey is draining through the strainer to the bottom of the tub. then i strain that again when it's emptied. no cappings in the honey and some really nice wax.
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9 x 1 1/2 = 13 1/2
10 x 1 3/8 = 13 3/4
11 x 1 1/4 = 13 3/4
All fit quite well in a 10 frame Lang (14 3/4 inside)
8 x 1 3/8 = 11
9 x 1 1/4 = 11 1/4
Both will fit in a 8 frame Lang (12 1/4 inside)
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i use a maxant uncapping plane, and uncap into an uncapping tub. when all of the frames have been spun out, yes, then i use cappings bags in my extractor to spin the remaining honey out. the uncapping tub is what you buy anywhere. 2 parts, a metal strainer, and a filter. the cappings sit on top the strainer until i can spin them out, meanwhile honey is draining through the strainer to the bottom of the tub. then i strain that again when it's emptied. no cappings in the honey and some really nice wax.
River in using a uncapping plane you can adjust the blade so you can remove the cappings with out removing the length of the built out cells. If a hot knife was used you would remove a lot more of the cell depth. and it a jiggle knife was used it would cut the wax flush with the top bar. Also I have seen some baskets on extractors that are quite narrow so leaving the frames well drawn out and fat is not an option when getting the frames into the extractor.
There is not one answer or best way. It comes down to what works best for you with the tools at your disposal to get the job done.
Beautiful frame G3. And sorry for resurrecting this 120 day old thread, finally getting back to some of the posts on the old threads
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yes, it is adjustable, the maxant uncapping plane. i set the depth according to the depth of the comb to the frame......when i uncap, i take no more off or as much off than one would with a hot knife. i use the frame edges (top and bottom bars)as a guide with the plane. i don't uncap below that as i have seen done....i think perry fell victim to some unscrupulous beeks he paid to extract honey one year, and when his frames were returned, an uncapping plane had been used to harvest additional wax right down to the foundation.
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But you can adjust so it only will remove 1/8" regardless of how drawn the frames are. Where some methods will always take it down to the top bar sides. I prefer to take off as little wax as possible. You are right about some that do custom extracting set the knifes as low as possible. I believe a Maxent chain uncapper was used on the frames of Perry's, they are noted for being hard on comb especially on new combs freshly drawn that season.
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"Simple answer for that one. Supers are for honey. they can be deeps, mediums, or shallows. they go on above the brood boxes."
Ahhhh Finally a Simple Answer..... thaaaank yooooooou laaaaaaazy
Not exactly.... Have you seen this?
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,1977.0.html
:laugh:
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"But you can adjust so it only will remove 1/8" regardless of how drawn the frames are. Where some methods will always take it down to the top bar sides. I prefer to take off as little wax as possible."
yes, this is the nice part about this plane, i do like to take a little more wax, but nothing below the depth of the frame, and i go a little higher. less work for the bees to draw the next time around. apis, when i looked at perry's pix, it appeared to me that a plane was used from the marks, not familiar with the chain uncapper, so maybe it would appear the same?
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can not take credit for the frame of wide honey, not sure were I found the pic now.