Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 27, 2016, 06:37:02 pm

Title: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 27, 2016, 06:37:02 pm
Hey everyone! I picked up my bees yesterday afternoon, a good chance from the same keep that apis63 got hers from.  Anyhoo, all went well, 3 packages of italians, didn't get hit once(sweet), I came home today and looked at the hives and this is what I saw on the front of one of them.....
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs32.postimg.cc%2F4f8bilf3l%2FKIMG0416.jpg&hash=f79b6451b1b99306881c3859b5fb75f303167a2a) (http://postimg.cc/image/4f8bilf3l/)
I understand that the bees have been couped up in that package for a week of travel time from California, however none of the others had anything close to this mess.
The deep had drawn comb from a dead out last winter. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on April 27, 2016, 08:30:53 pm
badger beek.........they were cooped up and had to poop..........? as you said?
the deep drawn comb from a dead out last winter...........why did the bees die if you know?  might be part of the problem?

also, i would remove the e/r............from your pic i see no opening at all?  do you have a top entrance?
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on April 27, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
okay oops, sorry, spotted the small entrance on the e/r i would go with the next one up!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 27, 2016, 08:50:44 pm
Hi riverbee! Thank you for giving me your time.
The dead out starved, but there was a lot of disentary in the hive also.
 I got some advice from a veteran keep here and he told me that the new bees would clean the hive when I installed them. I had reservations about placing them in a dirty home, but I decided to listen to him. I'm thinking I should have followed my instinct on this one.
Im thinking I should treat, but do I put them in a new home too?
Thank you again!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: iddee on April 27, 2016, 08:56:32 pm
I hope I wasn't the veteran keep, as I wouldn't want a repeat, but If I wasn't, I will back him up. Give them a week of good flying weather and it should be gone.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: Chip Euliss on April 27, 2016, 09:07:43 pm
I agree with Iddee :yes:
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 27, 2016, 09:23:05 pm
You're in the clear iddee!
Another guy altogether. I will relax, and let them do what they do and report back in a week.
Thanks again guys and gals! I'd be lost without you all :yes:
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on April 27, 2016, 09:51:19 pm
"The dead out starved, but there was a lot of disentary in the hive also.
 I got some advice from a veteran keep here and he told me that the new bees would clean the hive when I installed them. I had reservations about placing them in a dirty home, but I decided to listen to him. I'm thinking I should have followed my instinct on this one.
Im thinking I should treat, but do I put them in a new home too?"


there in lies the answer to my question on the frames you hived your new bees on and the pix you posted!
as iddee and chip said, give them time to clean the frames out, they ought to be good to go. IF you see different, let us know!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on April 27, 2016, 10:01:35 pm
okay, wait...........

i had to rethink this.........you had a hive/dead out that you think died out from starvation, but had a great deal of dysentary from last year.

hived a new package on these frames, with dead bees and staining on the front of the hive (from your pic) and as you said different from the other two hived packages.

are you feeding this package?  i would, and in the sugar syrup i would add fumagillin b........
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 27, 2016, 10:12:42 pm
The Fumagillin will not hurt if they are free of nosema, but if they have it from cleaning up the frames it could make a difference in their ability to fight through it.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 27, 2016, 10:17:16 pm
Yes river, that's what i m saying, except the hive bodies are brand new.
I'm feeding both pollen patties and sugar water.
Treat it is then.
Thanks to all, will let you know if it works out.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on April 28, 2016, 12:15:41 am
it's not the hive bodies.....it's the frames badgerbeek or the bees came with it. i'm with scott. to me, package bees......something isn't right, if you hived 3 packages, and this one package hived on frames that died out and had dysentery and the package bees are showing what's in your pix?  as scott said, the fumagilin won't hurt them, and will aid in their ability to fight through it.  i would give this one hive some f b in the sugar syrup. 

bees are hardy house cleaners, so whatever is in the frames is coming out the front door (what you are seeing, dead bees/defecation), and/or a possibility they came with a strain of nosema.  my guess is what's in your frames they were cleaning up.

i am not one to blindly treat with anything, give the fb a try, post back and let us know!



Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: Lburou on April 28, 2016, 11:30:01 am
Nosema C. dies when frozen for very long....Nosema a. dies with heat (I think around 120 F).  Were these frames frozen, or, in a sheltered place for the winter? 

I agree with riverbee about the bees not being hurt by the antibiotic, just don't make a habit of it and overuse it like we did with terramycin for decades, rendering it ineffective against AFB.

My beekeeping goal for this year is to get smart enough to see nosema through the microscope.  You will find some recreational reading about ID'ing nosema in the attached article from ScientificBeekeeping.com   :)
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: Jen on April 28, 2016, 01:52:28 pm
Good call Lee with the link to ScientificBeekeeping, I depend on this forum and Randy Oliver  :)
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on April 28, 2016, 07:37:56 pm
Thanks Lee for the link.
I can't say enough good about this forum, all of you have been invaluable in my journey of beekeeping.
I will be treating my hive tomorrow, all of my Queens have been released, ladies  have been buzzing the yard looking for anything at all to bring home.
Will keep you posted.
Thanks again to all!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 06, 2016, 06:30:16 pm
Hey everyone. Update, I treated the hive and replaced all the frames, queen wasn't laying. Lots of casualties, I am a little disappointed in myself for not going with my gut and listening to bad advice.
I hope they pull through.
I will keep an eye on them, the disentary has all but stopped but the bees are still quite lethargic. If they start to look better by next week I will steal a frame of brood and bees from my overwinter hive and help the population.
Does this sound like a good plan to the board of experienced keeps?
Thanks to all.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: kebee on May 06, 2016, 07:05:47 pm
 Sound like you have it figure out for that would be a great start to getting the package up to par.

Ken
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on May 06, 2016, 09:50:45 pm
are the frames drawn or foundation?

treatment with f b will take time.   wait before you add any bees and brood for now. 



Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 06, 2016, 10:28:58 pm
They are foundation RB. I will keep an eye on them, they are in my backyard next to the garden.
Will they draw comb?
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on May 07, 2016, 12:41:53 am
okay, foundation......
the queen can't lay until some cells are drawn badgerbeek.  do you still have syrup on with the fb? keep syrup on them.

this is a hard question to answer as to whether they will draw comb and/or how soon....given the circumstances the nuc was hived in. the queen and bees may have been 'crippled' by whatever is/was going on with the frame clean up. a build up of bees/nectar flow/sugar syrup and lots of young bees are needed to draw comb..... healthy bees;  not sure that you have this? 
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 07, 2016, 05:44:21 am
I have a ton of healthy young bees next door. I have inspection to do on Sunday. If they are starting to draw comb is that a sign that they are feeling better?
I put the FB on them 6 days ago and they haven't gone through a half gallon yet, though they seem to be taking it more readily now that I have removed tainted frames, also they are taking more of the pollen patty.
What signs should I be looking for as far as when I should give them a frame of brood and nurse bees?
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on May 12, 2016, 09:09:05 pm
sorry badgerbeek, been sorta mia..........

are they starting to draw comb? is the queen laying? the only concern i would have is taking away resources from a hive to give to a hive that may be sickly or not gonna make it........if the bees are turning around, it may be beneficial to give them a frame of bees and brood to boost them. 

keep syrup on them until the frames are drawn, and keep checking on their progress! 

post back, let us know how it's going!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 13, 2016, 08:44:06 am
Update. Not good. The hive has dwindled down to a few cups of bees. It's sad.
So I've decided to not buy packages any more and purchase nucs instead until I can sustain my own hive numbers with splits.
I met a keep in Ashland county that is willing to teach me what he knows. My wife and I are heading up there memorial week as they are going to be doing splits at his big yard.
As for my 3 hives, one over winter is about ready to be split, will do that after the cold front moves through, and they will all be sent out to there permanent homes next weekend.
Thanks again to all who tried to help me in this predicament.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: apisbees on May 13, 2016, 11:41:24 am
Did the queen ever get started laying? If she did and the brood pattern looked good, you could cage the queen take a split from the other hive. pull a nuc and introduce the queen into the nuc.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 13, 2016, 12:58:51 pm
She didn't apis, she was very small compared all my other Queens. Thus the thought of going to nucs next season instead of packages. It makes more sense to me.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: apisbees on May 13, 2016, 02:52:13 pm
It could possibly be a poor queen from the start. The bees should have been able to clean the frames. It is what bees do. I am not to sure that you were given bad advice but maybe a bad queen.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: LazyBkpr on May 13, 2016, 04:46:12 pm
Agree with apis completely....   A little time and experience, including theis experience, will be beneficial to you in the future. If the queen is not laying after a week I would call who ever I got the package from and get another queen. If they apear to have nosema, I would get another package etc...
   I come down on package bees pretty hard at times, but they DO have their place. I buy packages and let them get started and growing, then replace the queens with local / resistant queens from proven stock. I will often put the package queens in nucs that are well managed to keep them from making drones and see if they will overwinter.
   Often package queens are superseded, and I let the bees replace them, but still replace the queen later when she is laying well... so dont write off packages, just be prepared to deal with the troubles they can cause.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 13, 2016, 05:16:36 pm
You very well may be right apis, which is why I'd rather buy a nuc that has an established queen from a source I can drive to and observe the operation. My packages come from California, a big bee farm, which I don't trust anymore. The value I will be getting and peace  of mind is well worth the gas money and $32 extra dollars.
Maybe in the future lazy I may buy more package bees, but for now I think I will stick with nucs. What I need is more experience all around, so the opportunity with the keep I spoke of earlier is what I'm going to seek out. I just got another offer from a local with 25 years keeping bees and wants to show their operation. I figure it's best to learn from many. Which is why I like this forum. I read more than I post, but that's because I still know so little!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on May 13, 2016, 06:46:21 pm
thanks badgerbeek!  not sure you had a bad queen, it may have been the frames.............even though bees can and will clean them up......hmmm, they will suffer from whatever is in the frames trying to clean them up. you made a good decision to move these frames out, but does 'cripple' the queen and population. no surprise to me that the population dwindled down.

buying package bees is a crap shoot and so is buying nucs anymore...... but also what we hive them in is our responsibility to keep our bees healthy.  it's a tough call.  was it the queen, the package or the frames you hived them in?  just questions i would ask myself if i were in your bee shoes, and i am sure you have! 

if your old frames (from your description) had nosema, this would certainly 'cripple' ANY package bees and queen.

if the queen was small...... a not very well fed and/or mated queen .............

hard to say........? 

just my thoughts and long distance arm chair thinking.......... ;D

Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: badgerbeekernube66 on May 13, 2016, 07:42:12 pm
I have considered those things for sure RB!
It seems that bee problems are generally a combination of variables. Live, learn, move on is the motto I live by.
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: riverbee on May 13, 2016, 09:51:22 pm
"It seems that bee problems are generally a combination of variables. Live, learn, move on is the motto I live by."

yes many variables!!! hard to help someone sometimes from a distance with some things, just what we have collectively experienced to offer suggestions.
be so cool to be right there with you or anyone else to go through a hive with those who are learning............but then again, bees still sometimes leave me wondering and mumbling non disney language........ :D

best wishes, keep us posted, sorry about the loss/demise of your one package.......it's not only about the dollars, but the excitement of hiving a package only to see a problem, and lose it for whatever reason.  been there, done that.  hang in there!
Title: Re: New package problem
Post by: apisbees on May 13, 2016, 11:50:07 pm
yes many variables!!! hard to help someone sometimes from a distance with some things, just what we have collectively experienced to offer suggestions.
Just from what you have described being there most likely would not have provided a definitive answer. with more knowledge come the ever increasing list of possible causes. With the dysentery the FB should have controlled it. But regardless of this the queen should have started to lay. Even if it was a diminishing amount of brood or that brood in the hive was dieing.
Toxic Honey? I doubt this as the queen would have been laying and you should have seen it in the brood. and the bees would have been consuming more of the syrup than stored honey.j Although there are plants that produce toxic honey (to the bees) It is extremely rare.

I would send an email off the the supplier with a link to the threads that you started on the forum and ask if any one else has reported similar Issues. and see what they come up with as cause and effect. Keith