Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: GLOCK on January 12, 2014, 02:49:45 pm
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So what do you all do for VARROA mites and has it worked for you?
I have used OAV this past FALL and I had a great affect on the mite population and I have not lost any hives since last winter so I'm going to stick with it for now.
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Blech! Blech! Blech! just looking at these hideous things makes me want to hurl!!!!
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This last fall I learned how to put a sticky board under my screen bottom board. So I did just for experimenting. The next week I pulled it out and had 300 mites on it. GASP! So I did some very thorough quick research and decided on NOD Formic acid sticky strips. It's natural and won't hang out in your wax and honey, and it kills the mites that are attached to the drones in the cells.
It was miraculous! in 7 days I had over a 2000 mite kill, and very little colateral damage with larvae and bees.
But I now have an oxalic vaporizer which I will use twice a year if need be. We just did a treatment a week ago, will wait two more weeks to see how many mites have dropped. I'll post that event then.
I'll tell ya this.... after the formic acid treatment, my bees were so much more active and happy, more came out for foraging and flights.
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I have used OAV this past FALL and I had a great affect on the mite population and I have not lost any hives since last winter so I'm going to stick with it for now.
I haven't treated in many years. But until I got to that point, I tried many, many different treatments, and OA vapor, by far, worked the best for me.
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Oxalic acid vaporization. Have used formic acid MAQs and bulk acid on pads and Hopguard. They are all so much more work to get into the hives and remove. The OA vaporizor slides in the entrance without disturbing the hive and so far have not seen any mortality whatsoever.
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I love my Oxalic Vaporizer, so easy. But here is something you have to watch out for.
We treated with the OV a week ago, first time treatment. Did a trial first to watch and see just like instructions mentioned. Then we treated the hive. When I pulled the bowl out it looked like this. We were befuddled. The bowl is crusted with some serious black something or other and dead bees on it. WEIRD. Looked it up and the site said that if you have plastic frames the bowl could melt the plastic into the bowl. That it's best to have a screen bottom board so that you can lower the bowl down away from the plastic frames.
Another reason why I'm switching out to wood frames!
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.cc%2Fn5bad4mip%2FDSCF8509.jpg&hash=8560388d36ef2eacf955d6b974b50404b77b6c78) (http://postimg.cc/image/n5bad4mip/)
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Another reason why I'm switching out to wood frames!
Then you get scorched wood on the bottom of the frames. Don't ask me how I know.
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You do have to watch your wires dont tilt the vaporizer. I reach in with a hook to pull down any ladder comb and clean the floor where the vaporizer will be going. I think that wax will scorch black too. The odd few bees do wind up in the barbecue pit though. I rationalize that it must be the old senile ones!
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MAQS (formic) and if I see any high counts after, Oxalic vapour. The new Quick Strips don't even have to be removed, they're done in 7 days and the bees get rid of them. If Tracheal Mites are an issue it kills them too.
I have only treated in the fall and have yet to treat in the spring. I haven't really noticed any difference from those that treat spring and fall.
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I treat for nothing.
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i haven't treated my bees in about 10 years now, and i have never used oav or the maqs. before that tried a number a different treatments.
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I'm with Blueblood and Squirt, i don't treat for anything. I think breaking up there breeding cycle by making up splits in the spring and taking frames of brood and eggs in late summer to raise queens for fall requeening is the reason i don't have mite problems. Jack
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Crofter ""The odd few bees do wind up in the barbecue pit though. I rationalize that it must be the old senile ones!""
Crofter- I'm thinking that the bees go right to it thinking it's an intruder, then the vaporizer starts and fries them.
OR, it could be that they are attracted to oxalic acid. Ya know, like they are attracted to clorine in a pool.
I don't know, but there is a lot less collateral damage with OAV.
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Robo ""Then you get scorched wood on the bottom of the frames. Don't ask me how I know.""
Better to have scorched wood than scorched plastic. YUK! Like throwing styrofoam cups in the fire pit in camp! YUK!
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I do know this! And I've said this before! I'm only going to have 2 maybe 3 hives. I can't afford to loose one of them due to fluid sucking critters like mites. I just can't stand the thought of mites on my bees, anymore than I would allow leeches on my children. Not gonna do it!
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Jaybird, that was close to the attitude I started with. I had spoken to a retired bee inspector and he said he did not know of any hives in our area that got through the 3rd winter without treatment. That was about 5 years ago and perhaps there has been some changes in genetics and general knowledge of manipulations since that time so maybe the odds have changed a bit. I am slowly reducing treatment levels and watching closely. It is all too easy to get complacent.
That said, everyone has to find the direction they are comfortable with.
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Philosophy aside, I have done one treatment using the H vaporizer. It vaporized 2 grams of material in less than two minutes. Using the unit according to the directions, its in there about one unnecessary minute. So, I leave it on for only two minutes, or slightly more for more than 2 grams. That may make a difference for you burning or melting frames. :)
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Nicely put Crofter. I would love to be treatment free. And interesting that the third season is the one where I discovered mites, A Load Of Mites. But my first treatment was Nod Formic Acid sticky strips, which knocked em down fast, and so easy to use. Then from now on I'll keep my eye on the sticky board and use the oa vaporizer.
According to Randy Oliver, if you find 10 mites on your sticky board in one week.... multiply that by ten. That is how many are in the hive draining the precious fluid out of your bees. Yuk! Eew! give me the shivers just thinking about it.
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My understanding is that the seriousness of the mite situation is not directly linked to the numbers of mites found. One of the biggest damages from the mites is inflicted by the viruses they inject when getting their drink of haemolymph. There can be up to 20 different viruses vectored by the mites. Similar to the dear tick / Lyme disease connection. The tick bite is nothing if you dont contract one of the viruses it carries. The virus levels in the mites tends to go up in the second and third years. It appears that there are at least 2 different strains of varroa as well; one is less virulent than the other. What may be a liveable mite load in one circumstance may be a death sentence in another.
Some of these things might have a bearing on why some people can get by without treating in their situation and others can not. It can make for some heated discussion.
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Interesting.... pardon my while I go hurl!
The disease part is crucial for sure. But to me it's the fact that the mites are drilling holes into our bees and making them weak. How can the holes in the bees be repaired? they probably aren't repaired.
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Jen, It sounds like we dont have to worry about you getting complacent about mites! :laugh:
I would mention the idea of rotation of treatments being a possible concern. From my information there does not appear to be resistance development to formic acid or oxalic acid. This is a factor though with coumophos, fluvalinate, and many of the other synthetic strips. Just like with animal wormers you should rotate product type each year to keep the pests from developing resistance to them.
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Yes! my reasoning behind using FA and OA.
I sit on my roof with a 22. casually plucking off any intruder that may harm my children or my bees ~ mother bear here
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Probably not many showing a resistance to the .22! :laugh:
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Nope and some still have open wounds~ Ha! ;)
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I haven't treated my own bees in a number of years but decided this year that some form of IPM will likely be necessary for the bees at at the TAMU bee lab. < it appear there is very much a trade off here between docile bee and bees with varroa tolerance.
when I did play around with treating first I used sucromid which took way too much time and seem to only marginally effective. I think sucromid now is only registered for a couple of states and Texas ain't one of these. later on I did a bit of oxalic vapor and this seem to me to work extremely well if you applied it at the proper time of the season.
as to treating or not treating... for my own hives I am very much in the non treatment camp although from time to time I will recognize a hive here or there with nosema problem and treat these with a couple of rounds of fumidil in the syrup. I actively promote the idea that there is a genetic solution to the problem of varroa. trachael mites however have never been shown to be an economic threat to southern bee but I am not so certain this is true for northern beekeepers. it is difficult for me to see how anyone can breed a bee that shows resistance to both, so some treatment for one or the other in some locations may be necessary.
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Is Nosema diarrhea of which you can see long strings of it on the outside of the hive? What causes Nosema?
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And, how can you tell if your bees have trachael mites.
Just Gives Me The Shutters Thinking About thousands of mites in my bees throats!!
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the apis form of nosema signs are pretty much like you describe, however nosema carena is a bit more subtle pathogen to determine. this distinction seem to confuse more old beekeepers than new ones for some reason???
from a purely rational point of view nosema (both of them) and trachael mites can only be accurately distinguished by examination with a low power microscope. each of these disease does have well defined but often times over lapping symptoms so you can come to some recognition of these disease without a microscope < you are here adding weight to the likelyhood that you may be wrong which in statistic speak is referred to as alpha and beta error terms.
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And, how can you tell if your bees have trachael mites.
They get K-wing looks like this
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi952.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae9%2FGLOCK3%2FKwing_thumb_zps2c8965c8.jpg&hash=3c19ddb9ef5a0b4c1fd29ca931127b1d1fbb1627) (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/GLOCK3/media/Kwing_thumb_zps2c8965c8.jpg.html)
I use OAV so that keeps care of tracheal mites as well as VARROA .
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:agree: Nice picture of that Glock.
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I haven't treated with anything yet. I hate the thought of strengthening mites, and it's repulsive to think of those mites slowly killing my bees. It is a serious conundrum to me. Oh well, in my business we say, "if you don't know what you are doing, then don't do anything." I'm normally a black and white guy, but the bees and treatment vs non treatment has put me "on the fence." Time will tell!
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tec ""each of these disease does have well defined but often times over lapping symptoms so you can come to some recognition of these disease without a microscope < you are here adding weight to the likelyhood that you may be wrong which in statistic speak is referred to as alpha and beta error terms.""
Um.. maybe I just got out of bed, but "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"
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Lazy, I understand what you're saying. I too have scratched my head in wondering what to do. However. I do know that Formic Acid sticky strips, oxalic acid, and thymol, so far... have not made a resistant mite. Thymol is effective and non toxic to humans as well. Soo easy to use and affordable. Just lift the lid, lay it in there, put the lid down, the bees do the rest.
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I use tea tree oil as a might control it has been effective so far use 1cc in a quart of 1to 1 sugar syrup the week after i feed zero might drop. If i have a real high might count i use a propane fogger mineral oil with a couple of drops of winter green oil very fast to reduce the mites. Watched a video by fat bee man
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rod- would you then have a sticky board to determine the effectiveness of your method?
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I fogged with FGMO last spring and summer till the end of JULY and I did alcohol washes on all my hives and I had high mite count. so I switched to OAV and man did I have some scary mite drops just 1000s and 1000s.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi952.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae9%2FGLOCK3%2FBEEKEEPING%25202013%2FPA120046_zps8fa05b5c.jpg&hash=8c06549a02ef7ad0504ca43e98d8125a6ce1de0b) (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/GLOCK3/media/BEEKEEPING%202013/PA120046_zps8fa05b5c.jpg.html)
This was from a hive that had all ready been treated 3 time with OAV . This is after there was no brood left in late fall. I had fogged every week from all spring and till end of JULY with straight FGMO just to see if it worked and it did not . I plan on threating a couple of my hives this coming year with the fogger but I going to try some oils like tea tree and thyme oil since I have the fogger .
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Jen yes home made sticky board. glock i used fogger with mineral oil and wintergreen mix it worked for me i have not tried any other method of mite control so have nothing to compare to.
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Jen where would i look for a vaporizer and how to use. might try so i have something to compare to.
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Glock - Creepy isn't it! Blech! Shivers! I know from observation that after I treated my bees this fall with Formic Acid sticky Strips, that my bees were way busier than what I had been observing. Ya can't tell me that the mites don't have an effect on the well being of the bees.
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rod- here are the two oa vaporizers for sale. These are the websites I learned from. The Varrox is more expensive. But I've heard many say that Varrox is the cadillac and the Heilyser is the Chevy/Ford. Both good vehicles. I'm going to look for a youtube as well and post that. The Varrox has a nice video tutorial.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html
http://shop.biovet.ch/Webportal/showpage.asp?pagename=Varroabehandlung-Varrox-Verdampfer&ula=1
Oh! and I have a friend in Denmark that only uses this method with a sticky board. He gives his hives a shot as soon as there is no more brood in the early fall, then again just before brooding in the spring. His hives are mite free.
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I have Heilyser works ok I wired a switch to it and ya have to put a cored on it but works.
When I need to buy another it will be the VARROX®-Verdampfer .
I even gave all my DBL. deeps {12} a brood break {30 days} and still tons of mites by JULY so this year coming spring I plan on doing alcohol washes on all hives and nucs {25} total and treat as needed .
I want to play with fogging and essential oils since I have the fogger but I have my OAV just in case I know OAV works. I plan on working with 15 hives and see witch ones perform better and that deal with VARROA best and buy knocking the mite loads down may give them a better chance at fighting back.
This hive was like this all summer till I treated with OAV
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi952.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae9%2FGLOCK3%2FBEEKEEPING%25202013%2FP8200125_zpseb1b3bdd.jpg&hash=ffc58d34c065f1a04508a61e53cd6d70199b2ea3) (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/GLOCK3/media/BEEKEEPING%202013/P8200125_zpseb1b3bdd.jpg.html)
then after two treatment.same hive
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi952.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae9%2FGLOCK3%2FBEEKEEPING%25202013%2FP9030163_zps52ed7caa.jpg&hash=1dded3f28f3ec7817c237d79765d20d952699c78) (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/GLOCK3/media/BEEKEEPING%202013/P9030163_zps52ed7caa.jpg.html) That's why bees Abscond this hive gave no honey but it had plenty of honey to get them till spring and are strong it's a 2 year hive was treatment free first year treated this past SEPT. well over 10000 mites dropped from this hive.
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Here is a youtube tutorial on Heilyser Vaporizer. Get a cup of coffee, the guy praddles on a bit, but it's a good tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32eeVDJ5JqQ
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Glock- 10,000 mites! Man! That's gotta make a bee sick! Geez! So glad your helping keep your bees clean.
By The Way! First time I've ever seen a black hive. Very Cool Dude!
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Glock, unless i'm missing something? the picture above looks like a bad case of bearding? The black paint would make the hives hotter, but the hives do look good. Do they have top ventilation or screen bottom boards?I've not seen bees bearding like that because of mites, or are they bearding because used some type of treatment. Just curious. Jack
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Actually I was wondering that myself, classy looking hives, but might be hotter than hades in the summer ~ curious too
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Just found the youtube from Fat Beeman on how to use oxalic acid vaporizer. It's an awesome vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo
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The fatbeeman's video of his OAV looks intriguing. The only thing that keeps lingering in my mind is that my chemist pal tells me this procedure will leave a chemical residue in the hive. That being the case, I am worried that the residue will be tracked into the honey. I'm a petroleum engineer, and have a very narrow knowledge base of chemistry, but I trust my pal, who is a research chemist. Were I going to use a chemical treatment, Don's video would be my first choice, but I don't want any unwanted chemicals in my honey.
Thanks for the video Jen.
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Glock, unless i'm missing something? the picture above looks like a bad case of bearding? The black paint would make the hives hotter, but the hives do look good. Do they have top ventilation or screen bottom boards?I've not seen bees bearding like that because of mites, or are they bearding because used some type of treatment. Just curious. Jack
Jack= the bee where bearding because of mite presser for sure. As soon as I treated the bearding got better . Now I have had beekeepers think it was because of the color of the hive but I know better this hive dropped so many mite if I didn't treat it in AUG. it would be dead today.
That hive at that time had a screen top cover a SBB and a top entrance . One thing I have learned if your bees are bearding really bad you might want to do a alcohol wash and see where your mite loads are. I know the only two hives out of 25 that bearded bad had heavy mite loads like I said the black hive had well over 10000 mite .
this is the other.(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi952.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae9%2FGLOCK3%2FBEEKEEPING%25202013%2FP5290105_zps441cb83e.jpg&hash=96d846920235cb3fc98c60f0581d05fba7619efd) (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/GLOCK3/media/BEEKEEPING%202013/P5290105_zps441cb83e.jpg.html) They where the only two that had bearding going on to any amount . and both had crazy mounts of VARROA . All are humming away as of yesterday .
I go by experience ;D
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Lazy, When I was a kid, a drop of kerosene on a sugar cube would unstop a congested kid overnite. Totally clear the next morning.
Aspirin is a petroleum product. All petroleum products aren't necessarily bad for the human body.
Ask your friend how much residue might get into a human from the honey after using the oa vapor, compared to a drop of kerosene. I would guess the ratio of human intake would be billions to 1.
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The fatbeeman's video of his OAV looks intriguing. The only thing that keeps lingering in my mind is that my chemist pal tells me this procedure will leave a chemical residue in the hive. That being the case, I am worried that the residue will be tracked into the honey. I'm a petroleum engineer, and have a very narrow knowledge base of chemistry, but I trust my pal, who is a research chemist. Were I going to use a chemical treatment, Don's video would be my first choice, but I don't want any unwanted chemicals in my honey.
Thanks for the video Jen.
If you wait till the end of the year when ya pull the honey no worry's plus I think oxalic acid to some amount is in your honey already . It's best to treat when there's no brood but if your mite loads are high treat OR PMS is sure to come.
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Can't argue with success, i have never seen or heard of a heavy mite load making bees beard? The main cause of bearding is,the hive is to hot and they need ventilation or the hive is congested and needs more room if it isn't already to late. (there going to swarm) Jack
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[/quote] If you wait till the end of the year when ya pull the honey no worry's plus I think oxalic acid to some amount is in your honey already . It's best to treat when there's no brood but if your mite loads are high treat OR PMS is sure to come.
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Yes, oxalic acid is a natural ingredient of honey. There were interesting findings in Germany and Switzerland, where honey from colonies treated with OA had a lower % of oxalic then untreated colonies??? Bees are playing with us :)
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FYI From Apidologie
Apidologie 33 (2002) 399-409
DOI: 10.1051/apido:2002029
Determination of residues in honey after treatments with formic and oxalic acid under field conditions
Stefan Bogdanov, Jean-Daniel Charrière, Anton Imdorf, Verena Kilchenmann and Peter Fluri
Swiss Bee Research Centre, FAM, 3003 Bern, Switzerland
(Received 30 August 2001; revised 4 February 2002; accepted 1 March 2002)
Abstract
Formic acid and oxalic acid field trials for control of Varroa destructor were carried out in autumn according to the Swiss prescriptions during three successive years in different apiaries in Switzerland. The following parameters were determined in honey that was harvested the year after treatment: formic acid, oxalic acid and free acidity. The following range of values were found in honeys of untreated colonies: formic acid, from 17 to 284 mg/kg, n = 34; oxalic acid, from 11 to 119 mg/kg, n = 33. There was a small, but unproblematic increase in formic acid levels in comparison to the levels in the controls; average: 46 mg/kg, maximum: 139 mg/kg. No increase in formic acid was found with increasing number of treatment years. If emergency formic acid treatments were carried out in spring, the residue levels were much higher: average increase of 193 mg/kg, maximum 417 mg/kg. The oxalic acid content remained unchanged, even after two successive treatments during the same autumn. No rise of free acidity was encountered after a combined treatment with formic and oxalic acid during the three trial years.
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Here's a link about oa and the food we eat. It's a natural substance in our bodies, our food, and our animals.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
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Here's a link about oa and the food we eat. It's a natural substance in our bodies, our food, and our animals.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
I wonder why they didn't mention honey? ???
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Couple of questions;
If the recommendation is to be used during brood less times, they state November and December?? How will that help the mite loads in the fall of the following year?
I am nearly convinced to try this.. Just not sure how waiting until there is no brood will help the bees that are going to care for the bees that will be wintering.. I usually apply Hopguard in August to make sure of the lowest possible mite load going into winter.
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You can treat any time and it will knock the mite load back but going it to winter it's good to treat when all brood is hatched that way OA gets to the mites in the cells OAV will not penetrate capped cells so any thing inside will be the next generation of VARROA and getting most{you will not get them all}you will have healthy winter bees.
I say do alcohol wash's spring/ mid summer /and fall / and go from there just keep a eye on your mite loads that's your job as the keeper. ;)
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Glock! ""but if your mite loads are high treat OR PMS is sure to come.""
Am I laughing out loud for the right reason here? PMS? OMG :D
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Glock! ""but if your mite loads are high treat OR PMS is sure to come.""
Am I laughing out loud for the right reason here? PMS? OMG :D
parasitic mite syndrome ;D
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LOL Very Clever GlocK
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Glock ""I say do alcohol wash's spring/ mid summer /and fall / and go from there just keep a eye on your mite loads that's your job as the keeper.""
The way my class taught to do alcohol washes, or an ether roll, is to use approx 1 cup of bees in a jar, cover them with rubbing alchohol and shake them for about 5 minutes.
If that is done three times a summer, approx 1000 bees have died from that hive. That is a substantial amount of warmth that is taken away from the colony for the winter.
I just can't kill my bees for a mite count.
Many keeps do the sugar shake tho. Buuut, again I don't want to shake the sh.. out of my bees either.
I have a sbb and keep a sticky board under it all year long. In the winter I check it about twice a month. In the summer I check it once a week, clean it reapply the cooking shortening (Crisco) and put it back.
If when I pull it back out, I can count 10 mites, I multiply that by 10. That is how many are still in the hive. How many of those are pregnant females? I'm not taking the chance. It's time to fry mites!
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That's great if that work for you but remember 1000 killed for testing is not nothing for strong hive .
And when you see mites on a sticky board there dead mites and as they grow so does the healthy mites in and on the comb just mite bombs waiting to happen .
I all so in my production hive pull the queens when there 3 deeps with brood and ad a honey deep {I use all deeps} and some bees die then to plus you should see the birds they eat well I have the biggest bird feeder around. Just saying a healthy hive can handle losing quite a few bees .
I mean this in the most nicest why :)
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Glock! What a nice guy you are! ;)
I am a mother, a maker and preserver of life. My vision is to keep bees alive, every single one of them. Yes, I have killed my share of bees, but I really try not to.
If you could see me and my sticky board, I would be hovered over it with a bright light AND a magnifying glass! You would be amazed at how many wiggly legs and moving antennae I find on my sticky board.
It's taken me three years to get to this fourth season without casualties. This forum has helped me beyond measure. I will always appreciate your input. ;) 8)
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ok.. didnt want to get into the middle of that and walk away missing anything important....
Going to look into this a little more. I have seen a couple links for vaporizers, but they are pretty distant and prices are not in US dollars. Is there any place to order a GOOD one here in the US?
What about the OA for the treatment? Local Pharmacy? Apparently this stuff is used to... make Meth? Not sure, just wondered how to get it without going to jail... again...
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Lazy- Reeeelax..... Ohmmmmmmmm
I'm checkin on some prices for ya, hang loose for a bit... or tomorrow if you need your zzzzzzz's
I got mine thru ebay. But I would like to give you some price options.
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Lazy- pm'd you with vaporizer prices from ebay. You can get oxalic acid most anywhere just gotta make sure it's in the purest form. I got mine thru Amazon. 1 lb bag will last you a looooong time. Affordable.
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Excellent links, tyvm Jen..
Purest form.. it comes in different forms?
Hrm.. I see liquid and powder.. the video I watched shows powder...
In reading, and watching vids etc.. I have come to the conclusion that this stuff may well be the cats meow for mite treatment..
So let me make a scenario here...
IF.. I have hives I don't want to treat.. I watch those hives closely.. WHEN, it looks like a particular hive is about to crash, I can use the OAV on it and pretty much instantly wipe out the mite population.. wait two weeks, and use it again to bring the population down a bit more when a lot of the brood has hatched, THEN, drop Hopgard into the hive to finish them off... Re Queen that particular hive with a better queen and return to watching to see if the mites rebound or if the bees begin to deal with them.
I understand that the mites have already done some damage at that point, my effort would be to keep the hive alive to re queen. Re queening the hive is cheaper and easier than installing a package or a swarm, and may allow me to FIND more resistant bees?
Sound Plausible? Problems with this scenario?
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If you wait till too late in the season to see what if, your bees may not have time to raise their wintering population in a reasonably virus free environment. I think the term "is virus titer" takes some time to drop after the varroa have been cut down. If you wait too late in spring you have honey supers considerations to deal with. Different treatments also require a different time and temperature window.
Canada Agriculture has lowered their recommended threshold level to start Varroa treatment.
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Lazy- ""Purest form.. it comes in different forms?
Hrm.. I see liquid and powder.. the video I watched shows powder...""
I got mine from Amazon, but you can find it in any hardware store. If you buy just oxalic acid it will be in pure form. oa also comes in wood bleach form which may not be the purest form. Just buy oxalic powder, 1 lb for now, it will last a looong time.
Your scenario is plausible. However, it's backwards as to what i was taught. But that doesn't mean your way is wrong way. Except for one issue:
Lazy- ''WHEN, it looks like a particular hive is about to crash"
Don't wait for your hive to get loaded with mites, too much damage has been done to the bees which makes them week and die too early. Knock the mites out now and then treat on a regualar basis twice a year.
This is what I was taught from my beek friend in Denmark. He said that oa is used liberally in europe, it's legal there.
Because I had a huge infestation, my friend was worried that I wouldn't get the oav in the mail soon enough. So he advised to do the formic acid quick strips first, which would give my hive a 98% mite kill.
Then, when my oa vaporizer arrived... I was to check my sticky board, if there were more than 2 mites on it. Fog with the oa vaporizer one time. That is the finish off.
My plan is this:
1. I used formic acid quick strips for first treatment which allowed a 98% mite kill. Got a 2,000 mite kill.
2. Then, from here on out I will fog some time in August, when there is no brood left in the hive. And then I'll fog again in early spring when there is no brood or very little brood. Just like clock work.
This method allows the cells to be clean for when the queen starts to lay again.
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In conjunct with my last post ----
This is where a screen bottom board comes in. I think.. I remember you saying that you have a combination sbb and solid bottom board.
Even tho I have fogged twice... I still check my sticky board every week during the summer.
Randy Oliver, scientist, says that if there are 10 mites on board, multiply that by 100, that will be whats on your bees in the colony. In your colony is pregant mites. That's far to many for my taste.
Randy Oliver is my Hero!
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
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As I understand it from lots of reading, a hive may not show resistance to mites until it begins to become an emergency, at which time they may, or may not begin to do something about the problem.. "MY" problem has always BEEN to wait long enough to see if they will react, and yet still leave myself enough time to react if they do not. Enough time to drop the mite load, save the hive and produce a queen from one of my VSH Queens to try again.... Killing off the mites before the bees react to them doesnt help them, or me in my quest to find resistant traits.
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Lazy """MY" problem has always BEEN to wait long enough to see if they will react, and yet still leave myself enough time to react if they do not. Enough time to drop the mite load, save the hive and produce a queen from one of my VSH Queens to try again.... Killing off the mites before the bees react to them doesnt help them, or me in my quest to find resistant traits.""
1. Mkay... How can you know how and when to react when you can't see the little begger's? There can be 10,000 mites in your hive that you had no idea that they are there!
2. I'm confused as to why you think you need to re-queen after a treatment? am I reading that right?
3. I'm just trying to be a good beekeeper for Today. Every day I find new info to help me make a better bee. Keep them clean. Keep them fed, Keep them warm. Keep them cool. Let them Keep to themselves. Check my sticky board!
4. One mite on a bee is the equivalent of a soccer ball size sucker on our bodies. Imagine having 5 sucking soccer balls on our bodies. I Can't handle that information. I will treat twice a year.
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I can see the apparent logic in wanting an observable measure of resistance to enable a selection process. That would be the reason to re queen hives that show apparently less mite coping ability. I see possible issues of other causes being responsible for their condition though.
A second question is the assumption that resistance comes from that queens genetics rather than the drones contribution. Due to the number of drones possibly involved it may make for a mathematically long shot ability to effectively make any difference beyond random. Are you isolated enough to conceivably flood the drone supply?
Some of the resistant properties are recessive so must be present in both male and female lineage to move toward the target. I have not read more than clips of Brother Adam's work at developing the Buckfast Bee but it was not a quick process. That hybrid bee requires someone maintain at least two distinct breeding lines to keep the properties dominant.
Looking at my own longevity genetic forecast tells me I am no Brother Adam so I will leave that project to you younger guys and gals. In the meantime I think I will likely take Jen's approach and hit them mites hard, and kick em while they are down, lol. ;D
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Atta Boy Crofter!! One by One we shall march arm in arm conquering those nasty scallywags! In my backyard they shall never dwell!
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You have actually hit the nail squarely on the head Crofter.
A hive that has no active resistance gets a new queen, in HOPES that she will produce bees that are more resistant. Some of the feral hives DO show resistance, and are actively uncapping and pulling Larvae, but they dont do nearly as nice a job as the VSH queens. Even among those there is a difference in resistance, and I have to assume, it is for the reason mentioned, the drones they mated with.
Struggling with a hive I KNOW will die if not treated isnt beneficial. Specifically in allowing their drones to fly freely about. I have two other beekeepers nearby. One is all about resistant queens/bees, the other is all about natural selection.. which isnt ALL bad because we have a lot of feral bees.. But thats where the problem starts. In order to build resistance, I need to make sure that I have the best resistance I can get. As I said, keeping bees that show no resistance isnt helping me, my neighbors, or the feral population.
I use natural comb, and let them make the drones they feel they need. The other two local beeks use large cell foundation, so their drone brood is limited. The feral bees will be the ones producing the most drones, and will cause me the most heartache in building resistance. As I see it, every year I add a few well bred resistant queens, and keep trying to watch my bees and the mite load. The fact that some of the feral hives show resistance, or hygienic behavior gives me some hope of making a difference in my lifetime.
I never expected it to be fast, or easy, but I do enjoy trying, IF, I can figure out when those mites cross that line in the sand.
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scrambled eggs in my head ???
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I had an experience with one hive where the mites were taking over. The bees were uncapping and pulling brood and the queen was laying like a good one. Fresh eggs immediately all amongst the capped cells. Poster card picture of shotgun or spotty brood. The bees were doing what mite resistant bees were supposed to do but something in that one nuc out of the six we bought gave it a high mite load that pushed it over the tipping point of what the bees could cope with. I knocked the mites down for them and the brood pattern straightened around. I had to feed some but that hive wintered as well as the others and did very well this summer.
Without having close control to keep all conditions identical it is almost impossible to select for small genetic benefits. Signal to noise ratio! I had one hive last year that produced considerably more honey that its neighbors. It did so again this year. Superior genetics??? or just the fact that it was on the end of the row in the direction of their main nectar crops? Really hard to change just one variable at a time but unless you do.......
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@ Crofter:
Man on man did you hit the nail on the head with, "it's so hard to change one variable at the time." Great point.
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Good Stories Crofter- Being a newbee, and considering the casualties my hives have suffered... I Have Learned A Lot! However I'm not at the point (three years) to recognize situations such as the ones you just spoke of. The first scenario is one were LazyBpr wants to get to before he treats.
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Crofter;
The bees were doing what mite resistant bees were supposed to do but something in that one nuc out of the six we bought gave it a high mite load that pushed it over the tipping point of what the bees could cope with.
Indeed, and thats where I have the most trouble deciding what to do. You think maybe a hive that was overrun absconded and joined these bees Croft? Or the mite bomb just exploded before they could control it?
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I picked up 6, 4 frame nucs that day. They were in split 10 frame boxes all off the same rails at an isolated yard around the end of May. I think that was the mating boxes but I dont know if the bees they were made up from came from different sources. I remember the seller commenting that the one nuc was a bit light but should catch up. It is pure guess work that that nuc got made up with a load of lousy bees. I think the queen was laying well.
I should have spotted something was wrong sooner. Simply lack of experience. Apisbees, I think, had a post on the normal ratio of eggs to open brood and open brood to capped brood and again from capped brood to frames of bees. Kind of a rule of thumb but based on the pure math of number of days in each stage. If one of the stages is not going on schedule it should show quickly if you know how to appraise it.
The conscensus seemed to be that nucs dont have mite problems in the first year so it must be faulty queen problem. Once the mites were taken down though, population took off and the brood pattern went solid.
I think I have read that over sensitive VSH bees have been produced that uncap too much brood and wont build stores. That probably was instrumental insemination but it points to what a delicate balance there can be to getting sustainably treatment free bees. What method do they use to become treatment free? Some avenues seem to be by way of reducing the fertility rate of the mite resulting in fewer offspring per cycle. Some methods seem to rely on heavy grooming; others on shortened emergence periods by the bees. Maybe some are a combination of the various methods.
I sure would like to see a means of assessing what the actual causal mechanics are where bees appear able to go on year after year without treatments. Are some successful for totally different physical reasons than others? It would save a person a lot of blind stabs if that were conclusively known, wouldn't it?
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I sure would like to see a means of assessing what the actual causal mechanics are where bees appear able to go on year after year without treatments. Are some successful for totally different physical reasons than others? It would save a person a lot of blind stabs if that were conclusively known, wouldn't it?
I wholeheartedly concur.
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My sticky boards as of today 1-18-14
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.cc%2F61db83zp9%2Fmite_count_before_ox_treatment_less_than_50_mite.jpg&hash=af6741ceb5dc676f00884dd761b4253718ccc28d) (http://postimg.cc/image/61db83zp9/)
3 weeks ago right before oa treatment. Approx 50 mites
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2Ffx0mk7lxz%2Fmite_count_after_ox_treatment.jpg&hash=c19ab99d04536d13caa6922d1acd7a3d9072c203) (http://postimg.cc/image/fx0mk7lxz/)
3 weeks after oa treatment. Approx 1000 mites
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Fc54j2vlnj%2FDSCF8585.jpg&hash=105b9dfe3e00fe094f381777fc34ef84783a01fb) (http://postimg.cc/image/c54j2vlnj/)
The ten little piles add up to 100 mites, you can see next to the piles the blank space from where I retreived them
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Good pictures Jen! :photos:
I am somewhat curious why some folks think that a nuc shouldn't have mite problems in it's first year? Is this based on some idea that brood interruption alone will set back the mite life cycle enough to create a low mite situation for the remainder of the year? I don't know that I would necessarily agree with that.
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Good pictures Jen. Perry I dont agree either about the nucs being necessarily trouble free from mites. It probably was based on the experience that first year hives have a better survival rates than 2nd season hives. My thought is that yes they tend to survive but how much were they held back from their potential performance.