Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Perry on June 05, 2016, 06:10:26 am
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I have now had something strange occur with 3 of my nucs.
To begin with, out of 40 queens I've purchased, there was a 20% failure rate, which seems pretty much in line this year with what I am hearing from other keeps. It is frustrating to pay $40 for a queen only to see the bees release and reject her, but such is life in the bee world.
But in the last week I have now come across something that I have not seen before. The nucs where the queens were accepted were going along great, and are heading out the door over the last few days. On 3 separate occasions I have checked the nucs the day before they are to be picked up, and they are fine, lots of bees and more than enough brood. The next day I go to transfer them to either the customers equipment or a plastic/cardboard nuc box, and the first thing I notice is fewer bees when I lift the lids to do the transfer. Lots of brood, but definitely fewer bees and no queen. Nothing. No queen cells, lots of fresh eggs, but clearly fewer bees and no queen.
I have to then scramble to find another nuc to replace these and I will now have to either let them raise their own or wait for local queens to become available (still waiting).
What would cause a perfectly content nuc to suddenly decide to swarm (?) without even having a replacement on the go?
Congestion? Absconding behaviour of some kind, but then why would other bees remain? In 2 of the nucs there were enough
fewer bees that I removed a frame of brood (1 of 3) so that there were enough bees to cover what was left.
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My guess is Mites. Jack
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That bites Perry, the fact that you've got a high failure rate and absconding issues to boot. I know you have some crummy weather up there, I wonder if that has anything to with it.
What makes things even worse is we're bee farmers, a person raising beef has tangible evidence. A hole in the fence, a blood test comes back positive. We're left with few clues and pockets not deep enough to get proper testing done, if there's anything left to test.
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Indeed odd... I have found a couple with only a handfull of bees left, but the queen was still there, surrounded by her twenty to thirty loyal followers.....
It does sound as if they decided to swarm, despite not having any queue to do so, and to leave behind brood and eggs like that also goes against the grain....
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That sounds like a AHB defensive behavior. Disturb the hive and the bees abscond is a common AHB trait. Possibly that generic trait is in one of the queen lines used in the breeder queens.
Or as jack said maybe mite load, Or the bees genetic acceptability to what level of mite infestation they will allow before absconding.
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Always something new with the bees. Last week a friend watched as his recently installed queen left her perfectly good NUC with drawn comb & food, and flew away with all the bees.
One instance of absconding would be within the bounds of normal, but three in just a few days? Leaving brood and bees? Leaving stored food? The only causes I can think of would be a skunk or some other critter harassing the NUCs or an occult disease (mites).
Apis mentions AHB. One of the habits we see here is their usurpation swarms. Very small swarms with a queen or queens alight and take over an established colony. European bees have been known to do that as well. But you had three in such a short time. Mysterious as well as aggravating, I'm sure. :)
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perry, were all the frames capped brood in the nucs that took off? (you mentioned fresh eggs)
meaning were the majority of the frames filled with capped brood?
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There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me.
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I got me a Voodoo doll too. :yes: Jack
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I got me a Voodoo doll too. :yes: Jack
... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me.
Stabbing in the dark & looking for a common denominator here Perry, did the frames in those NUCs come from the same hive?
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I'd have to go through my notes, but highly unlikely.
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Your doll is too weak, Jack. I got Perry's straight from Marie Laveau. :yes: :yes: :laugh:
http://voodooneworleans.com/
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"There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me."
mark winston wrote about this (swarming behavior), and i think randy oliver did as well, will have to find and post. with frames of capped brood, and no space for the queen to lay. did you have any empty drawn foundation in the nucs?
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Good point River. I've been thinking about Perry's issue all day and it is odd. I've been making nucs from old queens and I had one swarm a few days ago and the donor hive was honey bound from me feeding syrup so there wasn't a space to lay. i noticed because it was one of my best old VSH queens i was saving for my friend to sells cells. If we knew all the answers, it wouldn't be fun would it?
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i think so chip. was also thinking on this..........thanks for your thoughts and post........ i think there is something to be said about whether it's honey bound, brood bound or say with a frame of bare foundation, (bees ignore this, it's just empty space. the queen can't lay.) swarming occurs when brood is primarily capped (among other things)? one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis? so the bees 'think' there is enough capped brood to swarm off (leaving behind the fully capped brood and some workers) without a queen cell/replacement. (reproduction of the nuc) and in perry's case........swarmed off with a new queen........... :D
hope i made sense?
chip wish we knew the answers, but as you said, no fun, keeps us keeping bees...... :D
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I think you both may be on to something. :)
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Now you have a reason to sell week nucs. Your looking after the customers investment.
RB. "one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis?"
1 frame of brood roughly equals about 2 frames of bees
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i think there is something to be said about whether it's honey bound, brood bound or say with a frame of bare foundation, (bees ignore this, it's just empty space. the queen can't lay.) swarming occurs when brood is primarily capped (among other things)? one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis? so the bees 'think' there is enough capped brood to swarm off (leaving behind the fully capped brood and some workers) without a queen cell/replacement. (reproduction of the nuc) and in perry's case........swarmed off with a new queen........... :D
hope i made sense?
I'm lost! As I understand it, it's presumed the queen and workers swarmed because she was out of room to lay eggs in the nuc. I can see the queen filling up available frames with brood quickly in a nuc. I understand that. I don't understand, yet, why they didn't leave a capped queen cell.
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I'm with you Bakers.
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it is not the fact that they didn't leave a queen cell because the resources are in the hive to make a queen. It is why they didn't wait for a cell to be capped like in normal swarming?
The queen cuts back on egg laying in preparation to fly to swarm, with no where too lay she is forced to cut back on egg laying. So she was ready to fly. The bees would sense that she was not producing to her potential and by waiting for cell to be developed was just delaying the obvious that the space was to crowded and they were going to swarm.
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What Apis said.. AND, as they realized they were brood/honey bound they left, and there was no eggs/larvae of appropriate age to make into a queen cell at that point.. Well considered!
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Bees are so olfactory inclined that it is entirely possible that a queen that runs out of space to lay produces a diffferent chemical signature than one who is laying like crazy just to put eggs in all the 'available' cells. Bees, and most animals, live and die in a world that would be hard for us to comprehend. We are very visual and bees are very olfactory. My Bees have taught me a lot over the years. For example, smells (for me prior to bees) were good or bad but now I've learned to associate certain actions (by the bees) with certain smells that don't smell especially good or bad. For beekeepers, one of the first we 'learn' is the attack pheromone but that's because we get direct feedback :laugh: Bees communicate in ways that we may understand better as time goes on but we'll never understand all the intricate details any more than the bees understand what we're trying to communicate when we speak. For Perry's bees, they must have sensed it was time to 'bug out' from some signal, likely chemical, and given the importance of the pheromones coming from the queen(s), it was likely too much of this or too little of that ;D Future research that ties bee behavior to specific chemical signals (and hopefully one's that beekeepers can detect with their noses would get my endorsement! For Perry's bees, I think River nailed it when she said the queens ran out of space--it's how she signaled that problem and how the bees interpreted the signal that's a mystery--we know what happened, especially Perry :o Keep thinking, there are more ideas out there ;D
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i know we all traditionally think a hive swarms when queen cells are left behind in our hives..........plz go back to my earlier post and read what i said about all the frames being capped brood in perry's nucs. swarming occurs when brood is primarily capped in our hives. there won't be much larvae or eggs and these are the adults that will soon hatch after a swarm issues to start over. why would this be any different in a nuc? my bee mentors always said give nucs frames of varying brood, and not all capped, and a good mix. yes in some ways varying ages will make a nuc slower to build, but if a queen can't lay anywhere, the bees will swarm. ? yes? with or without queen cells?
chip said in his post way better than i can say or put into words. very very true!
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What Apis said.. AND, as they realized they were brood/honey bound they left, and there was no eggs/larvae of appropriate age to make into a queen cell at that point.. Well considered!
Thank you all for holding my hand and walking me through this. :D
Lazy's statement sums it up, as I understand it. The colony, or nuc in this case, came to the conclusion that the queen had stopped laying because, for what ever reason, she had ran out of room. By this time there weren't any age appropriate eggs or larvae to nurture into a queen. So they went ahead and left. The colony built up so fast that it got away from the beekeeper. Literally.
My intention is not to say Perry was practicing bad beekeeping habits because I bet this happens a lot. In a case like this the beekeeper wants to give his customer a nice nuc full of brood and bees. It just happened that the colony came on a little faster than expected I would guess?
Thanks Perry for posting this thread in which so many of us can learn from this situation.
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I had 2 of 4 nucs that I purchased do the same as Perry's. 1/3 to 1/2 the bees gone. Only 3 frames if bees. No egg and very little larvae. Capped brood was present on 3 frames. No queen cells. Had a frame of comb that was empty. Gave it a week, no queen dound as they were all marked. Picked up 2 new queens and installed. Queens were released, will be checking progress this week.
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Curchann, that is the same, or similar, outcome as Perry's circumstance but with room for brood. A thought provoking account. Thank you! :)
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Been getting reports of nucs swarming in North and South Georgia as well as Indiana.
One fella has had about 30 to 40 percent of his queens not make it back from mating. These were from different yards hundreds of miles apart.
Strange things are happening indeed......
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OK, this is getting silly. I just got back from a yard I had 3 nucs last checked June 7th and everything was perfect. Good thing there were 3, and the customer only needed 2 cause the first one I opened had 4 frames with brood, but half the bees and no queen or cells.
That makes 4 of them this year that display the exact same behaviour, something I've never experienced before. ???
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This may sound a little paranoid? but i had about the same thing a couple of years ago in one of my outyards 60 miles from home. Two big strong hives, 2 deeps with 3 supers each, it happened 2 weeks apart, no queen, no cells,and not as many bees? Still had brood, no eggs or larva just older capped brood, Well on my way back home i seen two hives behind a out building of a neighbor about a 1/2 mile from my beeyard that i had meet and he had told me that his son had seen my hives while squirrel hunting and ask if it was alright if he hunted on my 15 acres and i told him i didn't care (the boy was 13 yrs. to 14 yrs. old ) the neighbor said he used to have bees years ago but they had died out and he was thinking about getting some more, that was 4 years ago. I know the sheriff and ask him about the neighbor and he told me that he wasn't to work brittle and he has had to serve papers on him for bad checks, i never said anything about my bees, because i don't want to accuse anyone of something he didn't do? About 6 months after loosing the queens and bees i talked to the neighbor and told him my son had put some game cameras up and had got pictures of a couple of nice 8 pointers he was going to hunt that deer season. When i said game cameras he got a funny look on his face. I've not had anymore problems? Makes you kind of wonder doesn't it ??? Jack
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These happened at 3 different yards so something like that I would be skeptical of. I have to admit though that I have on occasion been worried the entire group of nucs might disappear, they are not hard to pick up and walk away with.
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I agree Perry.. I usually keep the NUCS and problem hives at my house, and only move them to outyards when transferred to hives. Lets me monitor them a little better.
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I would have two questions for ya' Perry. 1) what kind of box where these nucs made up in and 2) what was the nutritional level at the time the bees disappeared?
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They were in 5 frame nuc boxes, the D Coates design.
Lots of food, a full frame of it at least.
I have now experienced the same thing a total of 5 times this year. I am assuming that it is because they simply ran out of room, but the total absence of Q cells is what baffles me. I have to agree with some previous posts that it is more a case of absconding than swarming. One day all is well and the next........
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I'm not sold on the idea of nucs absconding :no: an established hive i can kind of understand (mites, shb, disease, plastic foundation ;D, ect.) If the nuc was made up with frames of bees with a heavy mite load or shb's, :yes:,but most keeps like perry would look for those things. Nucs made up (5 frame) with a new queen or to make there own queen,nurse bees taking care of the brood frames (2 or 3) a frame of honey with pollen, and a frame of foundation to take care of and the break between old and new brood would lower the mite load if any? I've had nucs die out, but not abscond, (yet, that i remember?) The ones i lost was my fault,i didn't put enough nurse bees in to take care of the brood and the older bees went back home, the virgin queen never made it back? or the new queen died or was not accepted or killed, and me not keeping a closer eye on them. :no: Jack
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Perry mentions D Coates design and I was wondering 1) what is the dimensions of the two long sides, 2) what material were these made from and 3) what kind of glue did you use to put them together?
as to prior food question... what was coming in the front door and not how much feed was in the box? some queens will shut down when nothing is coming in the front door.... carnis are kind of well known to do this. was there any available room inside the box for a queen to lay?
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He was in dandelion and fruit blossoms so lots of nectar and pollen available. It was more an issue with poor cold weather with bad forage days.
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They were Kona queens After getting plucked out of a mating nuc off the sunny beach in Hawaii and dumped into a cold nuc in NS I think I would want to head south again.
Seriously a year ago there was that beekeeper from Hawaii that has top bar hives and she was talking about absconding queens if I remember correctly. River or Jen may remember her name to do a search. I think she was talking about moving to Oregon. could be a Kona queen genetics thing.
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This year was not a good one as far as the Kona's were concerned IMHO. Most I have talked to have seen a 20% failure. That said, it doesn't explain the release, acceptance, and then absconding I have seen. I think it was more a condition of my failure to provide adequate space. In wanting to make folks happy I stuff them and then wait till I see good laying results, which can take a week or 2.
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space/volume in those 5 frame nucs can be a problem and you can easily make these too strong. also the clearance between the bottom of the box and the bottom bar can also present problems.... I witnessed this directly in those two piece cardboard nuc boxes that some of the supply stores sell < in these the clearance is so small that if when you reinsert a frame if the queen is on the bottom of the bottom bar she will be squished... this also is a good place for small hive beetle to take over. burr comb on the bottom bars can also do somewhat the same thing even in nuc boxes with more clearance. Lastly it is my understanding that Kona is undergoing some ownership change and in such circumstance if the new owner is not a pretty savy and experience beekeeper thing can and do go wrong < imho the quality of queen produced by any given queen rearing operation hinges on the level of experience of the queen rearing crew.
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As someone else mentioned, critter harasment, skunks, opossum?