Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Do-It-Yourself Plans and Prints => Topic started by: Perry on December 05, 2013, 07:19:27 pm
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I really like the idea of cleats on boxes, but given that most of my gear didn't have them and used the traditional hand hold I figured to go with the flow. It also helps not to have cleats if you have to wrap your hives for winter.
I opted for regular dado hand holds and I made myself a simple jig to put on my table saw to speed up the process. I stacked up as many dado blades on my saw as my manual allows, usually 3/4" to 7/8" depending on the make/model of your saw and blades.
First, cut a piece of 3/4" plywood so that it hangs over all 4 sides of your table saw around a couple of inches. Using some scrap wood, screw 1 piece on each of the 4 under sides right up tight against the sides of your saw. Make sure it is secure and can't move around.
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds009_zpsaacbe4a2.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds009_zpsaacbe4a2.jpg.html)
Then I raised up my dado blades all the way though the plywood, essentially creating my own built in throat plate. I then measured over 3" (personal preference here, what works best for you) and screwed down a long piece of scrap to act as my "fence". I have 2 different markings in the picture, one for deeps and one for mediums.
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds008_zps3c7b2cbe.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds008_zps3c7b2cbe.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds018_zps2a020e2f.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds018_zps2a020e2f.jpg.html)
I then calculated how long I wanted my hand holds (again, personal preference) and screwed down start and stop blocks. Again, I have 2 different markings, one for sides (long) and one for ends (short).
I then just take my assembled box, butt it up against the start block, lower it onto the blade and push forward to the stop block, and lift off!It takes seconds per cut.
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds011_zps1f4495a1.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds011_zps1f4495a1.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds012_zps13ce071c.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds012_zps13ce071c.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds013_zpsedc8c6bc.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds013_zpsedc8c6bc.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds014_zps716c6538.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds014_zps716c6538.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds015_zps53212290.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds015_zps53212290.jpg.html)
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Handholds019_zps3f9ac19e.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Handholds019_zps3f9ac19e.jpg.html)
Done....now off to the paint shop!
(http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv1/PerryBee/Framerests010.jpg) (http://http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Framerests010.jpg.html)
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I use a similar method, but with a moulding head cutter instead of a dado blade.
http://http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/building-honey-supers/
(http://beevac.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_2311.jpg)
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I really like the pro look of your hand holds. Where did you find that cutter?
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It's a Craftsman 9-32003 moulding head cutter. I don't believe Sears still sells them, but they seem to be readily available on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=cr ... 3&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=craftsman+moulding&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.XCraftsman+9-32003&_nkw=Craftsman+9-32003&_sacat=0)
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I have used the molding cutter in the past but I place a 6" saw blade against the 3 wing cutter. it gives a nicer cut to the top of the hand holes and slows controls the speed the box drops down on the table and blade.
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Apis that is a dandy idea. Would have never thought of combing the two blades.
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There is the Perry I remember! Oh, nice handholds by the way.... :P
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7/8 boxes.. I bet those are rugged!! I like the handholds too!!! MUCH nicer than the skill saw method and faster than Mine..
I use the router and a 5/8 flat bit set to 3/8.. i made two jigs.. when the glue is good and dry I drop the jig on, run the router around.. flip the box, drop the jig on etc...
Before
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/KnitePrince/003.jpg) (http://http://s14.photobucket.com/user/KnitePrince/media/003.jpg.html)
After
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/KnitePrince/004.jpg) (http://http://s14.photobucket.com/user/KnitePrince/media/004.jpg.html)
and painted ready to go
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/KnitePrince/DSCN0053.jpg) (http://http://s14.photobucket.com/user/KnitePrince/media/DSCN0053.jpg.html)
Not as fast as Perrys but Router bits are CHEAP kinda like me :mrgreen:
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7/8 boxes.. I bet those are rugged!! I like the handholds too!!! MUCH nicer than the skill saw method and faster than Mine..
I use the router and a 5/8 flat bit set to 3/8.. i made two jigs.. when the glue is good and dry I drop the jig on, run the router around.. flip the box, drop the jig on etc...
They look very nice. With a little bit more elaborate jig (similar to the skill saw jig), you can get a tapered handle using a router.
Jim Hensel was kind enough to provide me information about his method. Here is his method and an example. He demonstrated on a piece of plywood, so the glue lines between the laminate show and distract from the actual cut. I believe it would look much better on solid lumber.
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/hensel-ha ... ive-boxes/ (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/hensel-handle-sloping-pocket-handle-for-hive-boxes/)
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WELL now!!!
I HAD considered making the handholds tapered for the water reasons.. but didnt want the top of the hand hold slanted.. it NEVER occurred to me to use a tapered bit... Now that I see this... the possibilities abound! Making the tapered jig with a bracket that will drop over the side of the box one for long and one for short sides it would be just as fast and look better.
Thanks for the Post!!!
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It's a Craftsman 9-32003 moulding head cutter. I don't believe Sears still sells them, but they seem to be readily available on eBay.
<!-- m -->http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=cr ... 3&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=craftsman+moulding&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.XCraftsman+9-32003&_nkw=Craftsman+9-32003&_sacat=0)<!-- m -->
http://corobcutters.com/mhkhd50moldingknifeheaddelta.aspx
I have this one from Corob. Works pretty well but I get a decent amount of tear-out on one side. Thinking knives need sharpened and make sure they are all at same height.
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Wish I could see one of these at work so I would better under stand how they work. ???
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I'll try to take some quick video if I can get the ballast on the florescent fixture in the garge warmed up enough to light off all the way tonight. The set-up isn't all together different than what you use with the dado stack and having stops clamped to the table of your saw. The shaper cutters just cut a profile instead of flat top and bottom.
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Bump.
I've got 20 deeps built and am probably going to be finishing the next 10 today. After that it's only a matter of the hand holds and them primer. Instead of just the straight dado cuts for the handholds I'd really like to try one of these molding head cutters to get the nice bottom slope, but am not familiar with how they work or set up. I see 3 blades that stick into a wheel, are they factory set or do you have to fit them in and adjust? What controls the shape of the arch?
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It's just a shaper knife holder that goes on tablesaw arbor. The knife profile determines the shape of the cut. A 5/8" (16mm) radius cove molding knife leaves a nice hand hold 1" (25mm) high and you control the depth to how you want, I try to go between 3/8" and 1/2" deep. I'll make to cuts, rough at about 5/16"-3/8" and then make a lighter finish cut but not sure it's really necessary. The knives are ground and held in place with a ball bearing with a setscrew behind it so the cutting edges are all the same height. Mine has one knife a few thousandths higher than the other two and it's apparent from the buildup on that knife.
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2Fdazmjjrfb%2Ftablesaw_jig.jpg&hash=f62777ef321cb2f32e3c9c4335980bb56f07e2ac) (http://postimg.cc/image/dazmjjrfb/)
Here is the jig I made for setting the distance from the top of the box and limits travel to keep hand hold centered and the right length. I set the base jig for the 19 7/8" long sides and have a set of blocks to adjust travel for 16 1/4" front/back and the 8 1/8" wide nuc boxes I just made. If I ever needed to make 8 frame equipment I'd just have to cut a set of blocks to the right width to get the handhold width I wanted.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.cc%2F9u25tsugh%2FMHK50_cove1.jpg&hash=521fe703adad04205a9a958450ff14aa244c5ff4) (http://postimg.cc/image/9u25tsugh/)
Profile of the cutter with 5/8" cove molding knives installed. Corob makes a bunch of different profile knives for cutting just about any profile.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimg.cc%2Fexz4wxcvr%2FMHK50_cove2.jpg&hash=5432c0a4b5715cd68e59368736d0b4bc036bd5dc) (http://postimg.cc/image/exz4wxcvr/)
This is how the knives are held in the cutter. The set screw pushes the ball bearing into the chamfered hole in the knife and held firmly in place. If one knife is too high or too low you could use steel shim stock under the knife to adjust the height or use a surface grinder to take a few thousands off the front edge of the knife to lower a high cutting edge.
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I have used the molding cutter in the past but I place a 6" saw blade against the 3 wing cutter. it gives a nicer cut to the top of the hand holes and slows controls the speed the box drops down on the table and blade.
How would you do that Apis, would you use spacers to keep the saw blade off the cutters?
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DLMKA.
I just ordered one of those Corob cutters and 2 sets of the #44 Delta 5/8 cove set of knives. I went with the MHK HD75 (5.7") Delta Style Molding Head, but I'm thinking yours is the MHKHD50 · Molding Knife Head (Delta) (3 5/8")? Is that correct?
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DLMKA.
I just ordered one of those Corob cutters and 2 sets of the #44 Delta 5/8 cove set of knives. I went with the MHK HD75 (5.7") Delta Style Molding Head, but I'm thinking yours is the MHKHD50 · Molding Knife Head (Delta) (3 5/8")? Is that correct?
Yeah, mine is the MHKHD50. Your tip speed will be higher and the radius at the ends of the handholds larger but should work just fine. It took me a little while to figure out at what depth and distance between stops got me the handhold width I wanted. I think you'll be happy with it. Make a wooden zero clearance throat plate for your saw, it helps with tear-out a lot.
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Perry, have you tried your cutter out yet?
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Not yet, I was expecting it at the end of last week. They said shipping could take 10 days so I guess I'm still in the ball park. I noticed when it showed up on my credit card bill it was $20 more than I thought, I'm betting the drop in the Canadian dollar was responsible.
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I have used the molding cutter in the past but I place a 6" saw blade against the 3 wing cutter. it gives a nicer cut to the top of the hand holes and slows controls the speed the box drops down on the table and blade.
I just bought one of these mold cutters with the 3 blades to cut hand holds.
Apis, what are you meaning by placing a 6 inch saw blade against the cutter?
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Good question Yankee11.
My cutter just arrived a couple of days ago. I got the one like DLMKA in post # 15.
The one thing you might have to watch is the max limit of your arbor length.
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Yea, I'm guessing Apis uses spacers on the outside of the cutter then the saw blade. I was thinking the arbor would need to be long
enough.
Hey Perry, I am looking at table saws. Mine is old and cheap. I noticed to have the Dewalt. How do you like it and can you put a 3/4 dado
stack on it?
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I love mine. Two good friends of mine, both self employed contractors have them. The German cabinet maker uses his for on-site work. The big selling feature is the rack and pinion fence, can't be beat.
7/8" dado stack isn't a problem. When I make my rabbets and frame rest cuts though, my German friend showed me how to do it properly, with the wood on it's edge rather than laying flat. Way less tear out that way.
Also you don't need to stack near as many blades on the saw that way.
This pic is using his shop saw.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FHansShop1.jpg&hash=b35e106717ef365645b3b386dc505f9bccd7852c) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/HansShop1.jpg.html)
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Oh Man, I never thought of that. So all you have to do raise and lower the blade to go from sides to frame rails. Don't even have to move
the fence do you? Looks like cut all the sides, lower blade then cut all the frame rests?That plus
the mold cutter will make making boxes a breeze.
I can use my current table saw since it would require a smaller dado stack. I am still gonna get the Dewalt though. Already have my heart set on it.
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I wasn't thinking of cutting them that way either at first, I was going to lay them flat. Hans told me to do it this way and I immediately picked up on why. He also made a quick push block so that it holds the wood against the fence, and prevents any tear out as your box end leaves the blades.
You're right about the ends and frame rests, just lower the blade, no adjustment to the fence. ;)
I figure if you want to make a million, watch a millionaire (that hasn't worked for me so far though). :laugh:
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Well, I only have 7 more boxes to put together and I'm done for the year (I hope).
Total:
55 deeps
56 mediums
10 shallows
Now come the handholds. I got my cutters and mounted them in my table saw. The throat plate for the dado blades work, but man there is almost no clearance on the one side. Not sure if I should use it or not given the clearance. I will lay my plywood jig on top of the saw anyway so I don't know if it's necessary.
Because of the beveled side of the blade I will have to shift my "fence" from the right side to the left side of the cutter. This will be an interesting new attempt at getting those finished looking hand holds. I'm also betting that this thing will howl like the dickens when it's fired up, and even louder when it hits wood! :o
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FMoldingheadcutter002_zps6bd066fd.jpg&hash=d6ecf1ef008dc70c90a9e3d470c1ecd26b232d9a) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Moldingheadcutter002_zps6bd066fd.jpg.html)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FMoldingheadcutter003_zpsf581b2ed.jpg&hash=b342fb5d22ed65e28f03ba5f33674ea8c00d9d27) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Moldingheadcutter003_zpsf581b2ed.jpg.html)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FMoldingheadcutter004_zps24d610ac.jpg&hash=651b297b7767a9f6dbfb8cf0cb9dd87e8545e54e) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Moldingheadcutter004_zps24d610ac.jpg.html)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi664.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv1%2FPerryBee%2FMoldingheadcutter005_zpsa846bbad.jpg&hash=50fa08754e54befd6fbda45d370040dc76f00ab8) (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/PerryBee/media/Moldingheadcutter005_zpsa846bbad.jpg.html)
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I bet its not that bad as long as the blades are sharp. My planer was so loud it rattled your brain even with earphones and ear plugs in.. until I replaced the blades on it.. Instant transformation from an impossible howl and trrible struggle to get the boards through, to a very reasonable hum and the boards get pulled through on their own.
Excited to see how this goes. How well it works, how long the blades last etc.. So keep posting PerryMeister!
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I have used the molding cutter in the past but I place a 6" saw blade against the 3 wing cutter. it gives a nicer cut to the top of the hand holes and slows controls the speed the box drops down on the table and blade.
How would you do that Apis, would you use spacers to keep the saw blade off the cutters?
Sorry just getting caught up on reading posts. with your cuter it would only require it looks like 1/8" of shims. Just enough so the blade sits against the 3 cutters. arbors on a table saw are generally long enough to accept stacked blades form a dado blade setup.
If using a cutter the outside blade stabilization washer dose not need to be used if the arbor is to short. the cutter body is stiff enough that it will not flex or warp.
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Thanks Robo!
I made a jig as Robo mentioned some time back to angle the router in with a dovetail router bit. I really like the results.. From here forward this is how I will do it. No more ledge for water to sit in.
The Jig.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Ff8y3xespb%2FDSCF0260.jpg&hash=68b8104b0522f584522b9bbcf2b83d3e692fa59c) (http://postimg.cc/image/f8y3xespb/)
Rather than make up two jigs, I made blocks to drop in place to do the short side of the box. Exceptionally pleased with the results. No more picking a box up upside down either!
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.cc%2Fkb6ztc5g7%2FDSCF0258.jpg&hash=6203972e458e2835d99da70e30005d2fbec10a08) (http://postimg.cc/image/kb6ztc5g7/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fhh9j6idwp%2FDSCF0259.jpg&hash=ce0759ba09dc8b9a2355a72d2c96100f091ac3dc) (http://postimg.cc/image/hh9j6idwp/)
So I owe Robo a beer if we ever meet.
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Well, did a test with the new cutter and hand hold jig and it worked better than expected. I did 10 shallows and am pleased with the results.
Thanks to Robo for the idea, and to DLMKA for the pics of the cutter I eventually decided on. I owe you both a beer! :D
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs8.postimg.cc%2F5fjpsmsgx%2FUncapper_002.jpg&hash=5a3c354d6d40c0721d0467f4b67555d04ff3dc4b) (http://postimg.cc/image/5fjpsmsgx/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Fm8evhp7a7%2FUncapper_003.jpg&hash=1fed8f5c34f265d03bfe022205e2872437ee608d) (http://postimg.cc/image/m8evhp7a7/)
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Those look good Perry!! I like them!
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Those cutters are worth every penny in my opinion if you're making more than a few boxes.
Did you make the entire cut in one pass or did you do a rough and finish cut? I started out making two passes but lately have just been making one cut.
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One pass, but nice and slow. I had to make a new zero clearance throat plywood jig, the old one was longer and resulted in some tear-out at the end because there was no support on the end of the cut. I wonder how long the knives stay sharp? Glad I bought 2 sets. ;D
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If you have a machine shop close have them put the knives on a surface grinder or blanchard grinder and just take a few thousands off to bring the edge back. Clean up with a honing stone.
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They look very nice. With a little bit more elaborate jig (similar to the skill saw jig), you can get a tapered handle using a router.
Due to Rob's suggestion I did get a tapered bit, and modified my Jig. I have been using it for some time now, but JUST did a video, so I figured I would update.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnjiRRDpsgs
And in case you are wondering, yes, that is a cheap 6 dollar Menards bit.
http://www.outyard.net/bee-hive.html
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This was a great thread with lots of cool ideas for making handholds. :eusa_clap:
Good video LazyB showing how you achieved your taper handholds with a jig and router. I kind of had a vision in my mind but wasn’t quite sure exactly how the beeks were doing it until I saw your video. The only problem with the video is your puppy stole the show. ;D
I use cleats because I always figured it was simpler and less stress on my fingers, but seeing how easy it would be to make handholds, maybe I’ll change my ways. Wait a minute, I’m a bee keeper. :D
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Great video! Watching it done is worth it's weight in gold, especially for someone like me.
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Just bought a molding cutter as well... I'll let you know how it turns out! :yes:
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Zweefer,
I just got finished cutting handles in some deeps and supers. With that molding cutter, the handles are about the easiest and quickest parts now.
Just be careful, and the thing sounds like a helicopter.
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Thanks for the heads up… Mine should come Monday!
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Zweefer,
I just got finished cutting handles in some deeps and supers. With that molding cutter, the handles are about the easiest and quickest parts now.
Just be careful, and the thing sounds like a helicopter.
:yes: :D :yes: :D :yes:
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Here's what I have to try it out on so far... (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F15%2F03%2F21%2Fd5463bacadc46deb171488953b5e5b5f.jpg&hash=e239a5eb086b06814598eb4472f34d71c0331fbc)
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Very nice looking work there my friend, well done. :yes:
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got my cutter today in the mail (only 3 days past when they said it would come)!
I'll give it a try tomorrow and post back...