Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on October 27, 2016, 01:44:38 pm
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The last two weeks we've had too much wind and rain for me to get into my hives and check for stores, and more of this weather coming steadily. I'm feeling the need to feed. What is the difference between 1cup sugar 1cup water, as opposed to 2cups sugar 1cup water, when feeding in the fall?
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2 to 1 in the fall, 1 to 1 in the spring!
Are you saying your hives are light?
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I was in the process of adding full frames of stored honey back into the hives and nucs about 3 weeks ago. All of the hives and nucs were about 70% full of honey. I do have some more frames to add as soon as I get a weather break. So yes they are light at the moment. The bees haven't been able to forage much these last 3 weeks, and all the rain I'm sure has washed out of anything blooming.
We are pretty much in winter mode early here in upper northern Calif
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Hey Jen! Seems I've heard one reason for heavy syrup (2 to 1) in the fall is it dries down quicker, less moisture in the hive over winter. Let's see what others have to say.
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1:1 will stimulate brood rearing as the bees think there is a flow on. 2:1 is thiicker and closer to honey than the 1:1 bees will move it down to back fill the brood nest getting ready for winter. best way to judge if you have enough stores is to heft one end of the hive to see if it is heavy. A hive 70 percent full of honey should be a pretty heavy hive if this is the case you should be good to go as is
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Yes, 2:1 in fall, i believe cause they still need to remove some moisture from it, prevents fermenting, then cap it, which does take some time. If they were to try that on 1:1, would take a lot longer.
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I think the ratio is based on weight versus volume. When I mix 2:1 syrup (just made 450 gallons), I add 100 gallons of water (800 lbs), heat it up, add 1600 lbs of sugar and spin it till its clear. The syrup you make should weigh about the same as honey (12 lbs per gallon), so 800 + 1600 = 2,400 lbs or about 200 gallons. I also add about a cup of citric acid to the mix to help break the sugar down to a form that is less costly for the bees to use (physiologically) because it can be used pretty much as is. Table sugar is sucrose and it is a disaccharide formed by the monosaccharides glucose and fructose; breaking the sugar molecule down from sucrose to glucose and fructose reduces the time and physiological expense of the bees doing it themselves. You can buy organic food grade citric acid on ebay for cheap.
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Ahhh Chip, now your getting too tech on me. But I understand what you are saying.
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The volume works out too; it's just tough for me to estimate (especially to measure) the volume of sugar. Converting to lbs is easier. In my case, I add 32, 50 lb sacks of sugar and call it good ;D
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For those of us who don't have a large apiary like you, I have three 2 stack hives and five nucs, I think it's easier to fill the pint/quart mason jar 2/3 full of sugar, add boiling water, stir until it's clear, put on lids, Wah Lah ;D
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IMHO I think a lot of it is just beekeeping myth passed down.. Some folks feed 5:3 year round and don't worry about the 1:1 or 2:1 brood rearing vs storage issue...
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There's a fair amount of witch craft in most everything we do, especially when in comes to specific ratios. That said, there is some rhyme and reason to the suggested ratios that should be considered. Heavier syrup, especially if it's been inverted , is less costly from a physiological perspective for the bees to process and store in the comb. Feeding heavy syrup certainly gets it stored in the comb sooner and that's a real benefit in a place like North Dakota, especially when there are limited days warm enough in fall for the bees to break cluster and concentrate and invert a more dilute sugar syrup. In the spring, the benefit to the lighter syrup is that it, on a per unit basis, "crowds" the space available and hence encourages the bees to draw comb to make more space; the downside is that it will ferment if you feed it when there's LOTS of nectar flowing and the bees don't tend to it in time. As with most things in life, and in bees, timing is everything and there are important seasonal and geographical considerations that beekeepers should consider to maximize success. Will the bees turn down a syrup because it's a little light or a little heavy? We know the answer; the key is providing what will optimize the benefit at a specific time of season for a specific geographic locale.
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In the spring, the benefit to the lighter syrup is that it, on a per unit basis, "crowds" the space available and hence encourages the bees to draw comb to make more space;
Or cause swarming :o
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Chip I appreciate your indepth answers and pick out new details from them all the time.
As you consider timing and proportions when feeding sugar syrup, how do those same factors to affect queen performance? Does feeding sugar syrup influence the queen's laying without protein? What about feeding protein without syrup? Are there exceptions?
I suspect everything you do pretty directly provides impetus for the queen to lay at the max. :)
Added: In your view, is inverting the syrup that big of a help for the bees?
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And does the pollen patties plus sugar syrup , influence the queen's decision ? Or is one by its self used in different situations ?
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I meant to ask protein or pollen patties
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Adding syrup, whether light or heavy, can be beneficial or not based on when, where and what's going on in the hive and in the surrounding landscape. Beekeepers who can manipulate their hives with that understanding and knowledge tend to have good bees year-after-year. Drawing comb isn't without consequences and swarming can be an issue if you don't provide enough space at the right time--it's certainly a balancing act and every beekeeper has swarms; trick is to have as few as possible. Lee, I do believe that feed and queen performance are related and I tend to err on the protein side when I'm trying to maximize brood production. For example this fall, I first fed patties early because I had lots of space for egg laying and the hives were heavy with honey. These would be the hives with LOTS of bees that consume lots of food so they open up comb fairly quick. They can be deceiving too because many of them will die from old age so getting those next brood cycles is important, especially for wintering or for strong pollination hives in February. After feeding the sub, I tip the hives and gave the light ones a little syrup. You can gauge the strength of the hive based on the rate that they throw wax paper out the front door (I wrap my sub in wax paper). Right now, the brood is pretty much gone, so I'm adding syrup to get the weight up to carry them till I get to work them in January. On that trip, my goal is to ramp up brood production for almond pollination and I will follow the same basic regime. By January, the comb should open up from bees eating the syrup stores so the same basic routine. We'll check mites and vaporize at the start of the trip if needed, then add 2 lbs of patty and follow that with syrup. We'll vaporize at the end of the week, if needed and head home. I think one of the problems that folks have with low production of winter bees is that hives tend to get honey bound and the bees have basically no place to lay; winter bees are really important and the key to having that hive survive till spring. Late in the year (fall) so not as much concern about swarming. Adding syrup then would be a poor choice; adding extra drawn frames would be a better option. We've all had honey bound hives in fall; small clusters and tons of honey. Usually don't make it because they lack critical mass of winter bees and they are easy targets for robbing, especially in California holding yards where there are thousands of hives in fairly close proximity to one another. As silly as it seems, I buy those huge colored thumb pins with heads about the size of a dime. Then, as I'm going through the hives adding pollen sub, I'll mark the lid of hives that need some special attention (e.g., add comb, feed me now, etc) with a unique color. That makes it easier for me to keep track of the hives and provide treatments based on the needs of individual hives.
Inverting sugar takes time and energy by the bees. Many commercial folks use HFCS because it adds more weight to the hive than plain old sugar (it's also more convenient but I believe plain old sugar is healthier) . That's because the bees have to expend energy to invert sugar so part of the syrup is used as fuel for that process.
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Is protein and pollen patties the same ? Or is protein patties. Grease patties ?
Thanks for info. We've had some boxes Q has moved up , left bottom empty sounds interesting. We'll defiantly use if appropriate in our climate.
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Yep Mikey, when I say protein, I'm talking about pollen substitute. They do make several different types of patties (winter patties, etc) but the only ones I use are the ones highest in protein since I'm using them to boost brood production. Different companies have their own mix and there are some good ones out there, but I just buy it by the bag and mix it with a little syrup in a cement mixer. I've buying UltraBee from Mann Lake since they are fairly close to me but there are many other good ones I'm sure. In California last year, I bought NutraBee from Keith Jarrett in California; I really liked how the bees performed with his mix but he's too far for me to buy from him since his is already pre-miixed and ready to go in the hive. I take care of the carbs for the bees with the syrup.
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Thanks for info. What I'm asking in a small apiary in late August.early September if we have Q move up and leaves the bottom box empty ,will patties activate Q to start laying ? We are still in the 60°f during the day ?
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May be getting a little late but iddee or others in NC would know better than I. My experience is here in ND and on the California circuit. I would guess that your Q is laying some so maybe stimulation work would increase brood production? Just get feed to them if they respond well. My wife's from Elizabeth City and one Christmas not too many years ago, I removed a colony of bees that had taken up residence in an old house they have on the property. I remember brood but didn't study it much but I doubt there was a lot of brood or it would have made a larger impression on my fading brain cells :laugh: It was a large hive and the active comb pretty much filled a deep and a half with cut out comb that I tied in frames. I gave the hive to one of her uncles who kept bees to pollinate his watermelons and other crops and they did well the following season. Give it a whirl and see how it goes; as long as you can get feed in, you don't have much to loose. That said, if your hive has fewer bees than you would like, ramping them up earlier in the year would probably be a better option. I'd probably start in August when they're still bringing in natural pollen.
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I would try to keep dry feed on them, but not expect much brood until after solstice. She will start ramping up production then, and have a full box by March 1. Once started, keep the feed to them. 3 days without it and the whole hive can starve.
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Mikey, be careful not to give them a whole patty at one time. We have found the small hive Beatle love to lay eggs in it. Give them a 1/3 and let the bees eat it up quick. Just saying :yes:
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Great reading and information, I am in Arizona's central desert and have been coached to feed both protein and 2:1 syurp right now as we are in a dearth and until it rains there will be very very little for the bees. This is my first year and first winter season so learning much still. We have no winter and very few if any days the bees are not active during the day all winter. I was told to feed as mentioned above until the rains start in Late November or early December which will start our first flow which is normally sometime in January through late May again depending on rain.
Seeking opinions about this..... Seem sound advise to go into the flow after feeding to maintain colony growth?
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Cool place to live Nugget. I used to go to AZ in January to bowhunt Javelina in the mornings and hunt quali with my bird dogs in the afternoons, mostly in the SE corner of the state. Given that your flows are so dependent on rain, you are probably on the right path; keeping the hives on a steady path so you can catch the flow but not have too many bees to feed if the flow doesn't materialize. In my situation, the almond bloom is a given that you can set your watch to and our summers here are such that you will make a good crop if you have 50,000 bees in each hive and not so much if you only have 30,000. Big difference in our climate regimes. Does the Mesquite bloom in January or is it later. May reach a point where I split in AZ before coming home. Great place to run dogs!
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The Mesquite Bloom is in late March or April as a rule, but with rain comes wildflowers and the Creosote Bush will often bloom as well. Thank you for the reply. We are rural so not as many planted goodies for bees as in the city like citrus which also blooms early.
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It is amazing how different locations handle bees in their 'normal' year. We have a wide range of climates here on WWBeekeeping.
I had a beekeeper from Siberia visit my bee yard a couple years ago, (he lives close to the Ural mountains). He had attended a government training program for beekeepers and was very confident in his knowledge. He said, through an interpreter, he kept about 15 hives, which he combined into seven or eight hives for the winter, and let the queens fight it out. Then he placed his bees about 12 feet under the surface in some kind of root cellar for the winter. He thought my hygienic Italian bees were remarkably docile. He does not feed over winter, but leaves a lot of honey ( I don't remember if he said anything about feeding protein over winter - he should in the spring)
The corporate memory of our local mentors & Clubs is invaluable. But, I do appreciate the counsel of the commercial, side-line and master keeps here. Thanks for the info Chip, you have persuaded me to be bold in feeding my bees. I'll probably only feed NUCs, swarms, cut outs and other weak colonies, but I think they will get both sugar and pollen patties when I do feed. And iddee, I'll remember it is important to feed until a natural flow is on before discontinuing any feeding. :)
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Adding syrup, whether light or heavy, can be beneficial or not based on when, where and what's going on in the hive and in the surrounding landscape..............
Best post I have read in a long time... Thanks..
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The process of concentrating the syrup not only requires energy but it cools the hive as the water is evaporated. Generally speaking, in the cool fall temperatures, you don't want to cool the hive more than necessary, so a thicker syrup is preferrable.
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Very good point Ef! :yes:
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This thread turned into a good read. Thanks Jen. :)
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Sure thing Neil! ;) 8)