Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on January 17, 2017, 03:50:18 pm

Title: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 17, 2017, 03:50:18 pm
This nuc has poop on the sugar cake and all around it. Some dead bees in between the frames. What should I do?

(https://s28.postimg.cc/50hw6v195/DSCF2974.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/50hw6v195/)

(https://s28.postimg.cc/jxqd7vehl/DSCF2975_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jxqd7vehl/)
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 17, 2017, 04:16:21 pm
Not much you can do, and I don't think you have a big problem there anyway.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 17, 2017, 04:49:51 pm
Well then how about simply replacing the soiled sugar cake?
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 17, 2017, 06:11:28 pm
You could just scrape off the poop with a hive tool if you wanted.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 17, 2017, 08:47:05 pm
I have one hive that hasn't touched their sugar cake, so I replaced the soiled one. Making some new cakes tonight too. Thanks Perry.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 17, 2017, 09:14:00 pm
Jen, as soon as those bees can take 1:1 sugar syrup, I would mix in some fumigilin.  I have one hive I bought as a package last spring.  The first week they started decorating the front of the hive with poop.  Treated with fumigilin.  Late in the fall, it hit again.  Treated again.  This colony ended up being so strong in the late fall that I put a 3rd brood box on because they were so over crowded. Last weekend there were signs of nosema again.   I am going to treat them with fumigilin as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 17, 2017, 09:44:12 pm
Fumigilin is a good thing to have on hand. The rats that got into my bee shed last winter ate mine and half the plastic bottle.

Can't help wonder tho, why that one hive of yours keeps getting nosema repeatedly, haven't heard that problem before?

I figure we have about 2 months of winter left, thinking that might be too long to wait for the bees to come out, poop out, and dry out...
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: efmesch on January 18, 2017, 05:05:52 am
Thankfully, I can't talk as a man with experience on the matter, but from the literature I would say that Baker is on the right track.  I would give them a decent dose of fumagillin as soon as possible. 
the reason for return bouts with diarrhea probably has to do with equipment that hasn't been adequately cleaned.  During the spring and summer season, with a lot of egg laying by the queen going on, the colony keeps ahead of the infestation, but as things slow down, it breaks out.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: yes2matt on January 18, 2017, 07:47:41 am
https://youtu.be/lZWoxVr05mk
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 18, 2017, 08:00:16 am
I don't aim to make this a discussion about fumigilin.   :hijack:  I heard Ed Colby speak last fall.  He is a regular contributor to Bee Culture magazine and has just been elected as president of the CO State Beekeepers Assoc.  He passed on one of those "old bee guys" bit of wisdom that I am going to try.  He suggested dosing all your hives with fumigilin in the spring especially those hives that just seem to sit there.  That's those colonies that never thrive but don't die and they never get ahead enough to fill honey supers.  Ed said the turn around will be worth the cost.

Jen, time to replace your rat eaten bottle of fumigilin.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: efmesch on January 18, 2017, 08:49:14 am
The standard recommendation in Israel is to include the proper dose of Fumagillin when giving the fall feeding.  I suppose that helps pull the girls through the winter more successsfully and enter spring time on the right foot.  Than again, that doesn't go counter to the advice Baker passed on from Ed Colby.

 :hijack:  I'm really guilty.  :-[
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 18, 2017, 08:56:47 am
The standard recommendation in Israel is to include the proper dose of Fumagillin when giving the fall feeding.  I suppose that helps pull the girls through the winter more successsfully and enter spring time on the right foot.  Than again, that doesn't go counter to the advice Baker passed on from Ed Colby.

 :hijack:  I'm really guilty.  :-[

  ;D  :hijack:
Fall treatments are what I have always heard, and practice, as well.  Ed Colby suggests doing both.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 18, 2017, 01:37:31 pm
I haven't ever had a problem with nosema yet. And our winters from 8 years back have been mild. I've only done one fall treatment about 4 years ago, but don't really see the need too. This year we've had some serious freezing snaps and 18 inches of snow. So maybe I should start thinking treatment in the fall season now.

In the hive with the poops, I removed the stained sugar cake and replaces with a clean one
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: becsbeehive on January 20, 2017, 03:06:29 am
I just discovered these  :hijack: :thread: :goodjob: :newhere:
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 20, 2017, 03:24:47 am
I just discovered these  :hijack: :thread: :goodjob: :newhere:

At Christmas time we have special emoji that sound like bells!
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: rober on January 21, 2017, 10:05:40 pm
when it's warm enough it's more efficient to mix up some fumigillin & spray the bees directly with it. a tech at the usda lab told me that they've found low nosema spore counts after treating with fumigillin but within 2-3 weeks they'd rebounded. no other info was offered so now if I treat with fumigillin I treat a 2nd time 2 weeks later. I also bought some nosevit & will give that a try this summer.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 21, 2017, 10:25:40 pm
when it's warm enough it's more efficient to mix up some fumigillin & spray the bees directly with it. a tech at the usda lab told me that they've found low nosema spore counts after treating with fumigillin but within 2-3 weeks they'd rebounded. no other info was offered so now if I treat with fumigillin I treat a 2nd time 2 weeks later.

Interesting....hmmmm. I always wonder about the efficacy of fumagilan after a few days in sugar syrup as apparently it breaks down. Spraying would seem to be a faster way to get them to take it. :)
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: rober on January 22, 2017, 05:55:54 am
& as we've all seen sometimes a hive just won't take syrup.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 22, 2017, 11:10:18 am
Thanks rober.  That's a good alternative "trick".  Is that "old bee guy" wisdom?  :yes:
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Les on January 22, 2017, 03:53:11 pm
Jen, not being an expert by any stretch, I took the advice from our bee group.  As my boxes come off, I took a propane torch to them and lightly went over the inside of the boxes.  As I pulled off my frames with and without comb, I sprayed them with hydrogen peroxide and let them dry in the sun. 
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 22, 2017, 05:21:53 pm
So Les, are you getting poopy bees too?
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 23, 2017, 05:51:35 pm
Well Gosh Darn It All To Heck!

Took a peek into my poopy hive today. Lifted the lid and this clump fell off dead with queen in the middle. Awe Shucks. Doesn't smell like disease, smells like dead.

My question is: Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???

(https://s30.postimg.cc/53ogmriz1/DSCF2983.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/53ogmriz1/)
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 23, 2017, 06:12:38 pm
Heat I bet. Were there a lot more bees in between the frames other than that small cluster on top?
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: tedh on January 23, 2017, 06:18:39 pm
Hey Jen!  First off, I'm sorry for the loss.  There appears to be a good deal of moisture in the hive, or is that an optical illusion?  If it is moisture that could be the culprit.  On second thought it could also be the result of the culprit.  As in not enough bees to remove the excess moisture.  Just a thought.  Ted
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on January 23, 2017, 07:42:28 pm
How have your temperature swings been this year.
I've seen a differences this year.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 23, 2017, 10:42:42 pm
Perry, I haven't removed any frames yet. I'll do that tomorrow

Ted, Yep there is moisture alright, I'm thinking that there may not have been enough bees to keep the cluster dry with fanning?

Mikey, we have certainly had temp swings from minus 5 to 40 at night.

The thing is, last winter is was raining every day, huge amounts of moisture. This year it has been a lot of snow.

But my question is: "Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???"

Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: riverbee on January 23, 2017, 11:22:00 pm
"But my question is: "Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???"

jen, perry is on the right track here.........

1. bees will move up towards the heat and/or feed if they have run out below and are not moving side to side.
    queens can and will be found on the underside of the inner cover when weather warms and the bees have moved up.

2. more importantly, this cluster appears to be very, very small, and not enough bees in this nuc to survive.

i don't think moisture was the issue, i think it was the # of bees, gauging from your picture jen.  some moisture will be found on bees, after they expire. if they are soaking wet and frozen, and/or ice buildup on the side, yes, moisture.  you probably wouldn't get ice build up jen. but take a look at the moisture on the bottom of the nuc, how much is there?  are the bees 'soaked'? from your pix the cluster of bees don't appear to be soaked in moisture, just those near the sugar brick.

i also don't think you had an extensive 'poop problem'.  if this nuc had nosema, one would see the tops of the frames and the face of the frames with dysentery all over them and it would not smell very good.

my guess is, this nuc didn't have the bee population to survive jen.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 23, 2017, 11:52:39 pm
Okay.... Good info on this thread, Thanks guys

I'll take the hive down tomorrow and see what I can see.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 24, 2017, 08:20:15 am
when it's warm enough it's more efficient to mix up some fumigillin & spray the bees directly with it. a tech at the usda lab told me that they've found low nosema spore counts after treating with fumigillin but within 2-3 weeks they'd rebounded. no other info was offered so now if I treat with fumigillin I treat a 2nd time 2 weeks later.

Interesting....hmmmm. I always wonder about the efficacy of fumagilan after a few days in sugar syrup as apparently it breaks down. Spraying would seem to be a faster way to get them to take it. :)
Jen:  Sorry your colony did not make it.  Some lessons are hard.

I had an opportunity to talk with an "old bee guy" last night at a bee club meeting.  I brought the topic up of "To feed or to spray fumigilin in the Spring?"  He agreed with spraying based on the same reasons that have been given here.  He suggested that those with a manageable number of hives spray frame by frame because it will be eaten right away, not lose it's efficacy, and WILL be consumed. 

Good thread, good opinions offered.  :yes:
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 24, 2017, 11:49:19 am
This lost poopy hive is one of my nucs. Learning how to winter nucs this season. Thanks for that info Baker  :)
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: riverbee on January 24, 2017, 06:48:19 pm
thanks bakers for your post on the use of fumagillin.  great post!

hard to say when to treat and when not. by the time we realize or see the effects, it can be too late. spraying would seem a great solution vs syrup.
if i were to treat i would use a much smaller pail.

in the spring for us, i am not certain that spraying would be a good option. maybe. nights are still cold, and day temps can be as well. 6 hives, not sure i would be willing to spray frame by frame, but then again i might!

in the past, some years ago, my supplier sent out a 'flyer' to all their customers, basically from the u of m and dr spivaks advice to treat all bees spring and fall for nosema.  i did.  i am not certain this was the best decision. blindly treating hives is not what i do.  hard decision as to when to treat and when not to. t doesn't hurt to give it to them.

i have had nosema in my hives, it ain't pretty, and the clean up is less than desirable. 

i don't think your nuc had nosema jen, i could be wrong. let us know what you find when you go through it.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 24, 2017, 08:55:14 pm
Will do River, and does Nosema have an odor?
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 24, 2017, 09:51:35 pm
No odour that I've ever noticed. When it was just Nosema Apis, treatment in the fall with fumagilan was standard. Then with the arrival of Nosema Ceranae, the recommendation was spring and fall. I have only ever used it in the fall, if and when I feed sugar syrup to light or weak colonies.
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Jen on January 25, 2017, 12:34:01 am
Okay, thanks Perry  :)
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: riverbee on January 25, 2017, 08:57:53 pm
"Will do River, and does Nosema have an odor?"

yes it does jen...........(my experience) if your frame tops and faces of the frames are spotted with dark spots.  you can smell it when you open the dead hive. maybe it depends on how extensive it is?  not sure. maybe perry's nose ain't workin'............ :D (lol perry, just kidding).
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: CBT on January 25, 2017, 09:04:13 pm
In Perry's defense when I had it I could not smell it. Just sayin
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on January 25, 2017, 09:39:39 pm
Did you that doctors look for loss of olfactory function as a early sign of Alzheimer's?

Perry, you wanna change your answer?

 :D
Title: Re: Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive
Post by: Perry on January 25, 2017, 10:10:56 pm
Uuuuuuuuh, upon reflection, maybe I should? :D
About that other thing, the word escapes me at the moment.....