Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: tedh on January 28, 2017, 12:35:16 pm
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Found 2 dead outs. Here's some pics of the first one.
(https://s23.postimg.cc/3pdediidj/20170128_092632.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3pdediidj/)
(https://s27.postimg.cc/m353fjhrz/20170128_093441.jpg)[/url]
(https://s23.postimg.cc/72ailoi8n/20170128_093654.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/72ailoi8n/)
(https://s23.postimg.cc/8un5akq3b/20170128_093425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8un5akq3b/)
(https://s30.postimg.cc/soghm9uel/20170128_094315.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/soghm9uel/)
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Found this while checking hives for sugar cakes. The first pick shows poo on the top bars, there was some on the front of the box too, not a lot though. The second pic shows a cluster and the marked queen. Third pic: moldy frame of capped honey(?), all honey frames had this grayish color.forth pic: another cluster of dead bees. Fith pic shows the bottom board. In this pic you see a small river of moisture, we think it's honey from the initial frame removal.
We found small areas of dead bees on several frames with patches of bees head first in cells, some capped brood and plenty of full capped honey frames. It seemed moist/wet inside the hives. Thoughts? Ted
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Awe Shucks Ted! Me too... :sad: lost one in early winter, and the second one about 1 month ago.
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Ted, sorry for your loss . thanks for pics. Don't have any advice I'm a two time loser too. I very interested in the moldy honey frame, was it all capped or is that mold that looks like cappings. iddee told me that the mold in my deadouts was because there was not enough bees to regulate temp.
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Good question Mikey?
And, is that honey extractable?
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I really don't see "fuzzy" mold on the frames but the cappings look kind of gray, I'm guessing it's mold. It's only on the capped honey frames. Not sure what happened, there seemed to be plenty of bees, plenty of stores, there was a small amount of brood so I think the queen was fine, until she wasn't. Everything in the hive seemed rather damp.
I won't extract the honey frames but use them for splits/nucs this spring, unless someone tells me not to.
The sad part is both deadouts were Wayne's Bees, the first two of them we started. They were our "show off" hives. We got some well deserved bragging rights from them! Thanks guys, Ted
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Was there any capped brood ? If so open them and look for any thing inside.
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There was some capped brood, found dead larva in the cells we opened. Ted
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I would not call that mold on that frame of capped honey. It looks more like what they call "bloom", the same sort of stuff that rises to the surface of beeswax candles over time. At the market I either buff it off with a soft cloth or use a hair dryer beforehand to get rid of it.
The dysentery in the first pic was fairly bad.
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We were going to collect some of the bees to send for testing but became engrossed in the autopsy discussion and forgot to. Will DEfINITELY do that on the next one. I hope.
The excrement was only in that area on the top bars and a bit on the front of the hive. I assumed it was were the last of the bees made their final stand. Thanks, Ted
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This my be post somewhere else on the forum, I just thought it fit this thread. http://www.wkow.com/story/34367302/2017/01/27/bacterium-discovered-at-uw-stout-could-be-linked-to-honeybee-mortality-rate
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I am going with nosema on that one. They were pooping on the top bars and on the sugar cake. It takes a bit to make a bee do that in its dining room. Usually you see it mostly by the upper entrance where they tried to make it out and didnt quite get there... Or just outside that entrance and all over the front of the hive... As opposed to just letting it go RIGHT where they are, That usually meant to me that they were in pretty serious trouble.
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Wish I would have sent some dead bees in to have them checked. I plan on the autopsy of number two deadout this weekend. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks Everyone! Ted
How should we proceed with the equipment (boxes, frames, etc.) from the first deadout? Burn them? Man I hope not.
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Scrape them off and clean them up. Spray frames with bleach and water and put on a good strong hive when the flow starts. Thats what I do... right or wrong.. ???
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What ratio, bleach to water should I use? Ted
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I use 50/50 and let it air dry. Good stuff.
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"I am going with nosema on that one. They were pooping on the top bars and on the sugar cake. It takes a bit to make a bee do that in its dining room. Usually you see it mostly by the upper entrance where they tried to make it out and didnt quite get there... Or just outside that entrance and all over the front of the hive... As opposed to just letting it go RIGHT where they are, That usually meant to me that they were in pretty serious trouble."
what scott said ted, one of the nosemas........
this is evident from what scott said about the top bars and on the sugar cake, also, a smaller cluster. just a note, even though we find dead bees with heads in cells does not mean they died of starvation........bees crawl into cells in cluster.
as far as cleanup, like cbt and scott said, scrape the tops of the frames off and if need be use bleach.......a 50/50 bleach wipe down. frame faces: if the honey frames are capped, a quick wipe down. it they are not, ditch it.
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Sorry to hear that Ted! I'm out one this year as well... still can't figure it out, as there was sugarboard on top, but they never made it to it. plenty of honey left as well... will autopsy come warmer weather and i can stand hanging out in the yard without freezing my fingers off...
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Ouch, 50/50 would be some tuff bleaching.. I put half a cup in a 5 gal bucket (with about 4 gal in it) of warm water. it is still strong enough to make my nose burn. Of course if you can handle it the 50/50 would certainly kill the spores!
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I did go with a much weaker solution and let them air dry. A 50/50 solution concerned me. Not a "I'm right your wrong!" kind of thing, Im just being overly cautious. Thanks Everyone! Ted
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If the solution is too weak to be effective what then. The air drying allows the bleach to evaporate. Just sayin.
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what cbt said..........just sayin'..............nosema spores on frames and on faces of frames you place back in another hive/reuse?
50/50 solution of bleach/water? when we are shooting our hives with oxalic acid and using other antibiotics?
the bleach solution is safe, just scrape off the top frames wipe down, and wipe down the face of the frames.
the spores need to be cleaned off or just plain throw them out............or expect your 'next' bees to ingest and suffer because they tried to clean it up and became sick and we wonder why. been there done that. don't mean to be a stinker, but it's the darn truth.
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Okay.
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I found 2 more dead-outs today. One completely dead and another with a queen and maybe 2 dozen bees, so it's a goner.
I have found 4 that are done so far.
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Bummer, man. Sorry for your loses Perry. Ted
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Hey Ted>
It's part of beekeeping. It's never easy, but if you're going to keep bees you're going to lose them too.
Sometimes we can figure out what happened, sometimes it's just Nature doing its thing.
These hives all have lots of honey so I am betting the problem started a few months ago and is just now starting to manifest itself. If you look for a silver lining, I have a bunch of frames full of honey to spread around to anything light in another month or so.
I started this winter with 99 colonies and 32 nucs, so time will tell. For now I am completely happy with the score.
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Good attitude Perry! If you're happy brother so am I!
My concern about using 50:50 bleach solution is that I've never heard of any recommendations to mix it that strong, until now. Sanitizing and disinfecting calls for 10% solution. Is there science based data showing the need for such a strong mix to kill nosema spores? Please understand, I'm not trying to be a poop, just trying to wrap my head around the 50:50. It would be a great benefit to us to keep and use these frames but not at the cost of spreading nosema. Needless to say we'll do whatever is necessary to keep these frames safe for future use. Thanks Everyone, Ted While we're talking about it, is it legal to use bleach in a hive?
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Seriously? 50/50?
Even the most strict mix I can find that is guaranteed to kill all germs is;
Clorox Bleach to Water Ratio For Disinfectant (NON-FOOD SURFACES)
Use ½ cup of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per GALLON of water
(This is a ~2500 ppm chlorine mixture using today’s concentrated 8.25% REGULAR bleach)
(Informational sources listed below)
Bleach to Water Ratio For Disinfectant (FOOD CONTACT SURFACES)
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PRODUCTS FOR PREPAREDNESS
Disinfectant Bleach-Water Ratio
September 14, 2014, by Ken Jorgustin
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bleach-and-water-ratio-for-disinfecting-sanitizing
Bleach is one of the most widely available and affordable disinfectants on earth. Clorox® brand liquid bleach was introduced in 1913 and has played a critical role in helping to protect public health by killing germs that cause illness.
For years, bleach has helped purify water – particularly during times of disaster, and has been a disinfectant to help kill germs that can make people sick, including MRSA, Staph, and Norovirus.
Disinfecting frequently touched surfaces is essential for prevention. Germs and viruses can thrive in the kitchen, bathroom, baby’s room and laundry room, especially around toilets, sinks, faucets and bathtubs.
The World Health Organization (WHO) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) – recommend the use of bleach for controlling the spread of pathogens that can cause infections and other health threats.
Here is the recommended bleach to water ratio for disinfection:
UPDATED
——————————————————
Clorox Bleach to Water Ratio For Disinfectant
(NON-FOOD SURFACES)
For cleaning, sanitizing, and disinfecting surfaces such as bathtubs, sinks, faucets, tile, plastic toys, potty chairs, high chairs, changing tables, floors, appliances, countertops, garbage cans, walls, light switches, etc..
Use ½ cup of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per GALLON of water
(This is a ~2500 ppm chlorine mixture using today’s concentrated 8.25% REGULAR bleach)
Bleach to Water Ratio For Disinfectant (FOOD CONTACT SURFACES)
For cleaning food handling equipment and food contact surfaces such as plastic cutting boards*, stainless cutlery, dishes, glassware, pots and pans, stainless utensils, pet bowls, teething rings,
Use 2 teaspoons of Clorox® Regular-Bleach per GALLON of water
(This is a ~200 ppm chlorine mixture using today’s concentrated 8.25% REGULAR bleach)
How Much Bleach With Water For Ebola Virus Disinfection
Add 1 part bleach to 9 parts water (1:10 dilution factor)
Sources:
Oklahoma State University; Food & Agricultural Products Research & Technology Center
University of California; UC Food Safety
Clorox
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/health/disinfectant-bleach-water-ratio/
http://ncchildcare.nc.gov/pdf_forms/bleach_solution_fact_sheet.pdf
http://ucfoodsafety.ucdavis.edu/files/26437.pdf
However, bleach is also one of the most harmful disinfectants to human health and has been linked to respiratory problems and birth defects. Bleach may also be hazardous to wildlife and the environment. There are greener alternatives in disinfecting wipes and cleaning sprays, however, these eco-friendly choices may not be as effective in killing bacteria and viruses. Also note that both bleach and greener bleach alternatives are intended to disinfect surfaces in the home and are should not be used on the skin.
http://www.mnn.com/health/healthy-spaces/stories/disinfectants-a-guide-to-killing-germs-the-right-way
½ tablespoon
bleach/pint water
1 tablespoon
bleach/quart water
¼ cup
bleach/gallon water
http://www.oregon.gov/OCC/docs/Sanitizing-Disinfecting-Final3-2012.pdf
High level disinfection (approximately 5000 ppm) Preparing a 1: 10 Household Bleach Solution: • 62 ml ( 1/4 cup) household bleach + 562 ml ( 2 1/4 cups) water • 250 ml (1 cup) household bleach + 2250 ml (9 cups) water
1. Disinfecting Bleach Solution (use for disinfecting hard, non-porous surfaces like sinks, showers, bathtubs, countertops, glazed tile, vinyl, floors)—Wash, wipe, or rinse surface to be disinfected with water. Add ½ cup Concentrated Clorox® Regular-Bleach to 1 gallon water; apply bleach solution to surface; let stand 5 minutes. Rinse thoroughly and air dry.
Read more at https://www.clorox.com/dr-laundry/making-sure-you-dilute-bleach/#g2AcOqiemEf3p5md.99
Over the past few years, I have gotten the impression that many people are using chlorine bleach in an unsafe manner. Chlorine bleach aka sodium hypochlorite is a powerful disinfectant and is one of only a few widely available, inexpensive sanitizing agents. It is so powerful that it should only be used in fairly low concentrations.
When sanitizing food preparation areas: counters, tables, sinks, knives, and cutting boards. All surfaces should be washed to remove organic materials (food bits and dirt) and rinsed. It is only at this point that the items should be sanitized with a bleach solution of approximately 200ppm.
This is about 1 TBSP of chlorine bleach per gallon of water. Did you catch that?
Let me repeat it.
The proper dilution of chlorine bleach for sanitizing food preparation surfaces is 200ppm or 1 TBSP per gallon of warm water.
http://www.home-ec101.com/how-to-use-bleach-safely/
1 cup to one gallon
https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/bleach.html
Bleach solutions can be corrosive or irritating to eyes, skin
and the respiratory tract.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/735976O/disinfection-with-bleach-tech-talk.pdf
http://www.info.gov.hk/info/sars/en/useofbleach.htm
•
Solution 1: Sanitizing food contact surfaces - ¼ teaspoon bleach +1 quart water
Solution 2: Sanitizing diapering surfaces including areas contaminated by blood
or bodily fluids – 1 tablespoon bleach +1quart water
•
Solution 3: Sanitizing toys that have had contact with the mouth – 1 teaspoon
bleach +1 gallon water
http://www.nfsmi.org/documentlibraryfiles/PDF/20120713093708.pdf
A variety of liquids, including dilute bleach and alcohols, also kill spores. However, these methods also require considerable equipment manipulation. The equipment must be dried and free of fumes before it could be used by the bees.
http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle6.html
Chlorine Bleach is a strong corrosive material. It will irritate the eyes, skin and the respiratory tract by merely inhaling the gasses.
Sodium hypochlorite - Household Bleach. SALT is the residue it will leave behind if used in too strong of a concentration, and the bees WILL try to clean this from the frames.
AND.. since 99% of the bees in the hive are female I thought this a VERY important fact to post here;
chlorine has also been strongly linked to breast cancer.
http://sandysnaturalsolutions.com/dangers-of-bleach-and-a-solution/
Okay, so the last line was just a joke... BUT....
I am going to step forward and revise what I said earlier. DO NOT use a 50/50 mix.. unless you are going to rinse the frames. It leaves behind a residue that could be armful to the bees.... The most heavily concentrated mix I can find any mention of is one cup of bleach to one gallon of water.
To be perfectly honest, 30 + years ago we scraped down frames and put them into strong hives. Perhaps it was just not known what was going on, but I do not recall massive losses of bees from nosema... of course I believe there was only one type of nosema back then too, so that may be a bit off base. However, the chance that I am leaving behind a reidue EVEN at the One cup to One Gallon mixture is too high, when a lesser solution will effectively destroy most Nosema spores...
I have been searching diligently through the "more famous" websites from renowned beekeepers attempting to find an effective mixture for disenfecting frames and or comb... I cannot seem to find any that have any scientific backing.. Even Randy Olivers site does NOT list Bleach as a means of treating frames or comb... rather, he advocates storage of the frames, heat, or vinegar;
Another proven method to fumigate combs is with concentrated acetic acid (the “active ingredient” of vinegar). This is a time-honored practice that is mentioned in all the bee books, yet surprisingly, is illegal! No one has registered acetic acid as a pesticide for nosema. So if you do use it, make sure that you are applying it as a “comb freshener”– not as a nosema treatment!
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-5-alternative-treatments/
What I can say for sure is that if it can harm you, it certainly can harm the bees. I certainly do not want to wipe the toilet seat down with 50/50 solution and then set my tender tushie on that seat day after day.
Having said all of that.. if you have been using a 50/50 mix and have seen no side effects... Awesome! Take notes, try some hives with a lesser solution and compare the results, and let us ALL know what those results are. To me... it is not worth the chance of harming the bees, at least until I have some solid evidence stating that such a strong concentration is safe for the bees..
Hope that didn't come across as nasty or anrgy, thats nothow it is meant, since it is my own opinion backed only by what I could find doing a few searches.
Scott
Ted posted while I was typing... hope the above answers some of the questions!
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lazy,
Lot of good info there. I see I have probably mixed too rich when I use it.
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Also.....
I doubt it is legal to use bleach in a hive.. but then you are not using it IN the hive, your just sterilizing parts of the hive when they are removed. Right? ;D
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tee hee....... thanks for the encyclopedia on bleach............. :D
"is it legal to use bleach in a hive?"
"I doubt it is legal to use bleach in a hive.. but then you are not using it IN the hive, your just sterilizing parts of the hive when they are removed. Right? ;D"
was it legal to use oxalic acid before it was approved?.............just saying. lots of methods have been used by us all that probably weren't exactly 'legal'.
some of us beeks used a thymol product (i think for horses) one could get from your vet or a local fleet farm to kill mites with long before it was ever approved.
bleach has been used by beeks in sugar syrup (to prevent fermentation; i don't use it to do so) and in a a nosema testing control by randy oliver, will have to find olivers article on this? (this was not to wipe down frames and woodenware).
also, bleach solutions of various types have been tried.........for example for AFB. it does not work.
use common sense. when it comes to nosema and we are unsure of which nosema it is, i am cautious about placing frames back into a new hive to re-use, because of the spores that remain. some frames i have ditched. i scrape the wooden frames off as best i can. face of the frames are a different story. the 50/50 bleach solution does take all the junk off the wooden ware in one swipe. we are not 'drenching' frames or equipment in bleach.
hot water, your bleach solution, a sponge. dip and swipe it. wear gloves and eye protection.
i think if one uses a bleach solution of 1 to 8 is fine to swipe the face of frames with, as well as the woodenware. anything more diluted than this, i do not know how well it works and no scientific evidence.
i have been cautious about reusing frames, so might consider a dose of fumigallin, although having said that, i don't know if this is really necessary or if it helps, i am not big on the use of fumigillan for this purpose.
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I have to agree, with any disease of the hive, burning the parts is the best way to insure they do not cause problems in the future.
tee hee...... What is that? I always imagined an evil cackle rather than a cute giggle?
OK... time to hide!
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I can't leave this bee. When I was in the freshman dormitory at U of Idaho, we were arranged in suites, four guys sharing a bathroom and shower. One night the suitemates had some sort of party... The details might be inappropriate. ... But the next day, I did that bathroom with 1:0 bleach, straight out the Clorox bottle onto the floor and mopped the whole ceiling, walls, fixtures, everything.
We could use it again the next day.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
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............. :D :D :laugh:
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I too will step up and say if I choose to use a strong bleach solution to clean any bee equipment it will be rinsed with water to remove any residue after allowing sufficient time for it to work and air dried. Thanks for stepping up and questioning the ratio. We do as we have been shown.
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We do as we have been shown.
Agreed!
Though I do admit some things I used to take for granted as fact in the 70's have proven to be not so good with the test of time. ;D
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Strong similarities to my 2/16 deadout
(https://s27.postimg.cc/6b6hltkgf/IMG_2375_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6b6hltkgf/)
(https://s13.postimg.cc/rgvgbyfer/IMG_2400_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rgvgbyfer/)
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Just throwing this out there, can ya torch inside of box ?
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Yes