Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Jen on April 08, 2017, 03:12:26 pm
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When I make a split.. what is the difference.. if I leave the original queen in the hive, and put the new queen in the nuc?
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Depends, are you doing a split or making a nuc?
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I have read that if the old queen goes into the new box with 1/2 the bees, she and the bees in both boxes will all think they have swarmed, thus reducing the urge to swarm.
They may be a bit confused, thinking they missed the email sent out by the Swarm Generals, but they should be happy that it has already happened and nobody got hurt. "Oh, and here's a new queen already, we don't have to mess with creating an emergency queen! We just have to help her out of little cage."
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Hey Jen! Leaving the old queen in the parent hive and installing new queen in the nuc is what Josh and I are planning to do as part of swarm prevention, reducing congestion in mature parent hive. My understanding is that the new queen is more readily accepted in a smaller colony. Keep in mind that is JUST my understanding. Placing old queen in the nuc will make the parent hive feel as though they swarmed (artificial swarm?). My thought is that by placing new queen in parent colony the "artificial swarm" never took place. That and MAYBE lower acceptance rate. We requeened 4 hives last year with purchased queens, 3 were accepted. With the exception of "Hey Jen!" take the above with a grain of salt. :D. Ted
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Ha! Two responses giving opposite recommendations.
Ask two beeks a question, ...
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"When I make a split.. what is the difference.. if I leave the original queen in the hive, and put the new queen in the nuc?"
jen, not sure what you are asking? like perry said are you asking about the difference between a divide/split vs creating a nuc?
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Hey WM! Not at all, I think we are on the same page if Jen is splitting the hive equally to increase her hive count. I think what you posted earlier is spot on. My understanding, from earlier posts, was that Jen was wanting to make nucs to sell and decrease her number of hives while preventing the hives she intends to keep from swarming. Maybe I've misunderstood her intent. I apologize for the confusion and will now quietly step into the corner and watch. :-[ Ted
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I apologize for the confusion and will now quietly step into the corner and watch. :-[ Ted
Hey! That was MY line!
I'm already in my corner, watching. 8)
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"Hey WM! Not at all, I think we are on the same page if Jen is splitting the hive equally to increase her hive count. I think what you posted earlier is spot on. My understanding, from earlier posts, was that Jen was wanting to make nucs to sell and decrease her number of hives while preventing the hives she intends to keep from swarming. Maybe I've misunderstood her intent. I apologize for the confusion and will now quietly step into the corner and watch. Ted"
Yes This! I pulled 4 frames of capped brood to make a nuc.
I had an elderly moment there for awhile and couldn't remember why we remove the queen and put her in the nuc, and then requeen the hive. But I got it now. Gotta get her pheromones out of the hive, remove some frames, remove all queen cups and cells, so that the bees are fooled into thinking there has been a swarm. Then giving them a new mated queen so they loose the swarm mode and want to continue with the new queen.
Come out of your corners now boys :D and thanks for helping me ;) 8)
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Update: I pulled nuc today, 4 frames of brood, eggs, larva, and one frames of pulled wax for queen to keep laying in.
I put the new queen with girls in their cage, in between two frames in the top box and watched for a bit while I cleaned up. Everything seemed fine at first, then about 15 minutes later I pulled the cage out to check and there were bees trying to sting thru the netting. I remember last year, Riverbee, coached me how to do this. I'm thinking that the bees hadn't realized that their queen was missing yet, so this queen was an intruder.
So I brought the queen back into the kitchen and closed up the hive until tomorrow, and I'll try to introduce her again. I introduced many queens before and haven't actually seen this rejection before.
Does that sound like a good plan?
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Another "I've been told" answer:
I've been told to wait until 24 hours after getting rid of the old queen and queen cells before introducing a queen.
So to me: Yes that sounds right.
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Also some spray a little lite syrup with honey bee healthy type product in it to offset any lingering queen scent.
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Beginner question of the day, does NUC stand for something, like is it an acronym or short for a longer work? Just haven't heard that term before.
Thanks
C
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craig............NUC is short for NUCLEUS hive/colony, typically a smaller colony created from a larger one, also can be a source of drawn comb, extra queens, etc....
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craig............NUC is short for NUCLEUS hive/colony, typically a smaller colony created from a larger one, also can be a source of drawn comb, extra queens, etc....
Thanks! I'm still learning all the lingo :)
Would the NUC always be co-located with the original hive or is the intention to eventually separate them and start a full new hive?
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Well Crud! I did the same thing yesterday with the other hive. Pulled the nuc, and queen, set the nuc aside. Then reassembled the hive and put the new queen in her cage snug between two top frames. Walked away, job done, for about 4 days.
:\'( :sad: It's been twenty four hours she's been in there... Can the bees actually sting her thru that netted wire on the cage?
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Jen I found these video helpful
https://youtu.be/aQJ8bJj1XIs
https://youtu.be/7YTFV7B0b6k
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"Would the NUC always be co-located with the original hive or is the intention to eventually separate them and start a full new hive?"
craig, i typically move my nucs away from the hives i created them from, 2-3 miles or more. i typically use nucs to start a full new hive, but they can be used for other purposes.
"Can the bees actually sting her thru that netted wire on the cage?"
yes they can jen.
not sure what the deal is. i always set the cage on top for a bit before placing in between frames, and watch to see what happens. there is a noticeable difference immediately between bees that are happy to receive a queen and bees that are not happy about it.
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Wman, those are great vids. Interesting how he put that queen straight into the hive, where as we plug up the corked end with candy and let the bees release her which takes a couple day or so.
When I put her in the hive yesterday, I did watch for a minute maybe, off and on while I was cleaning up tools. I'm wondering if I should check on her tomorrow, see if she's dead in the cage?
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I have a friend that can read bees that way and can usually tell right away if a queen will be accepted.
I usually cage mine for 2-5 days and check every other day to see if there is acceptance, I have found that russians seem to take the longest to be accepted,
I always make sure she has some honey in the comb with her just in case.
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Hi kingd :) How are your danes? would love a photo :)
Yesterday when I put the queen cage in, I watched a bit. Then I saw four bees curl up tight right in the middle of the screen and it looked to me that the ends of their abdomens were pressing on the screen, but I couldn't see if the stingers were out. So I decided not to take the chance.
You see in the cage there... is white hard candy for them to eat and feed the queen. And then on the very left of the cage there is a blob of fondant. So when I put this cage in the hive the bees will have eaten the fondant out in prob a couple days. There is not much a an acceptance period with these queens and cages. Used a different queen breeder this year, so learning a new way of acceptance. Crossing fingers.
(https://s23.postimg.cc/dmmrn9q7r/DSCF3165.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dmmrn9q7r/)
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Update on installing new queen into hive that was split ~~
Bad Sad news! I blew it! committed murder again :\'(
After reading on this post that it is highly recommended to wait 24ish hours to install a queen in a hive that has just been split, of which I installed her right away after the split... I got worried about my queen and thought maybe I could lift the lid and check and maybe extract her. Too late. She was out of the cage but I still needed to know if she had been killed. Went thru the hive rather quickly hoping that she was still alive. Nope, she had obviously just been released and the bees had her on the bottom board balling her. She was still alive and I swooped up the ball of bees and tried to save her, but it was too late, too much damage. Thanks for listening to my sad story :sad: :sad:
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Wman, those vids really helped me out. Yesterday, I went to my other hive which was 24 hours after making the split and removing the queen. I followed this fellows advice, put a queen cage on top of the frames and just watched for awhile, picked up the cage and tried to sweep off the bees, it was much more successful, but there were still about 3 bees that were a bit harder to push off of the cage. So, I've waited another 24 hours. As soon as the rain lets up this morning I'll go back to the hive and try again.
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Hi Jen!
It makes me feel bad every time I lose a queen :\'(
Hows your Dane doing? Mine are good,gonna have to take some pictures of the girls
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Sometimes this unforgiving/rewarding-hobby/addiction Let's us think we're getting better. Then I'll forget a basic rule of some kind and have a setback but, thank goodness I'm too stubborn to quit. But even with 2 steps forward and 1 step back I'm movin and shaking getting a little wiser every year. And so are you WWB/Jen.
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Exactly CBD! I think you just summed it up right there! Stubborn ;) 8)
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jen,
installing a queen in a fresh nuc that you want to add a caged queen..........and for everyone........
leave them queenless for at least 24 hours.
after 24 hours place the queen cage on top of the frames and watch the behavior of the bees. this is is a good indicator of whether or not she will be accepted. do not release her even if the bees seem okay with her. ( i never release queens out of a cage). put the cage in if you think reaction is relatively good. you can also leave the cork in for anothr 24 hours if you are unsure, then remove the cork to expose the queen candy.
if the bees react negatively when placing the cage on the tops of the frames, like you described jen, trying to sting through the cage, wait another 24 hours. try again. watch the reaction. queens can be okay in cages for a few days. just give a little swipe of water. jz beez cages are great because there is more queen candy in the cage (typically) than in the traditional benton cages.
what you want to see are bees peeking up at the tops of the frames, filtering up to the cage, covering the cage, touching her or touching with antennae through the cage, and fanning. if you see fanning at or around the cage, odds are she will be accepted. you don't want to see their abdomens or butts towards the cage, and you will clearly see this. if so, pull the cage, and wait another 24 hours.
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Okay River, this is what I did... eh hem... after I blew it with the first queen 3 days ago. I installed them yesterday afternoon, and it appeared that the bees were simply crawling on the cage and eager, but not clinging madly to the cage. Then I installed the cage. Will be checking tomorrow.
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that's great jen!
sorry, i am behind on posts, how did this go? were your queens released/accepted?
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Hi Riv, not good news, or maybe uncertain news. Eight days later. I checked Hive #1, it appears queenless. Cage empty, not a single egg, cranky stinging bees. So I took a frame from a nuc that had about 20 1-2 day old eggs on it and put it into the center of the presumed queenless hive. I have marked on my calendar to check hive in 10 days for queen cells.
I'm baffled.
I have time tomorrow to check Hive #2. Crossing fingers
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hmmm, okay thanks jen, being testy is not always a sign of being queenless.......you said appears to be queenless? cage empty, but no eggs after 8 days.
did you look for her? you didn't mention this, so just asking. i know we all typically look for eggs, sometimes we need to determine if we have a queen.
you have experience with this........more than many......... :D :D :D
also,do you have feed on this nuc jen?
baffled? lol, who doesn't get baffled?........... :D
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I searched every frame. She was a marked queen, pink. Yes, been feeding with the buckets.
So, I figured if I put a frame of eggs in, and checked back in 10 days and found queen cells, that would tell me if they offed her.
She was in her cage for 3 days along with her attendants, they were given water each day, all alive when I put the cage in.
It was also not an over crowded hive, so wouldn't be too hard to spot her.
Befuddled ;)