Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: iddee on February 02, 2014, 02:33:50 pm
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Checked my 3 hives and one I'm baby sitting for the winter. All have deep frames of honey fully capped, open and capped brood, eggs and pollen. All four totally ready for spring. Maples starting to bloom and fresh pollen and nectar in all hives. Couldn't ask for any better.
Even saw two of the queens.
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Jealous. We aren't even close. Lot of winter left here.
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Jealous. We aren't even close. Lot of winter left here.
:yah: :agree: :'(
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Not been in mine that deep but have been doing some lid lifting.
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looked in on mine today. three more dead :sad:
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Bummer Keith. :sad:
Any idea why?
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I want to say the latest cold snap got them.
Why it got them I don't know. Many of the dead we're head first in the comb. Possibly not enough ventilation and condensation got them? I dunno
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"Many of the dead we're head first in the comb."
starvation? how were the honey stores?
ps iddee, like all northern keeps, a looooong ways off.....
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""Many of the dead we're head first in the comb.""
That's what I was thinking riv
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"Many of the dead we're head first in the comb."
starvation? how were the honey stores?
ps iddee, like all northern keeps, a looooong ways off.....
All three hives had multiple frames of honey left. Just not where they were
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"All three hives had multiple frames of honey left. Just not where they were"
cold starvation is what i call it, bees with head in cells, big clump on the frames, with many fallen beneath the cluster, and on the bottom board, with frames of honey frames over on either side?
so, cold starvation i describe as this; weather so cold, with no let up, that the bees don't move to the honey stores in the frames nearby.
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Cold starved. They used up what they had where they were, and it didn't warm up enough for them to break cluster and shift onto stores. Sad.
Can't control the weather. :sad:
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29 seconds, dang it river! :D
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well perry, at least this time we are on the same page and thinking the same.....or what was it one time? in step, not outta step......so doing the same dance?!.. :D
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All three hives had multiple frames of honey left. Just not where they were
Yep. That's what happened to me last year. Here it got warm then turned really cold and I think they couldn't get the cluster to the food.
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This is why (up until this year), I always put a thick patty of fondant right over the inner cover hole. I always have this feeling that the bees work their way up the middle, and then chose a side to go to with the stores. I then worry that they will get caught out on that side during a cold snap and not make it across the hive. I felt that with the fondant right in the middle they could always count on it for travel back and forth. This year is the first in a while that I don't have it on all my hives. I have patties on maybe a dozen of the 51. For the most part they were heavy so I only threw some on the ones I thought could use it. It's saved 4 of my nucs so far.
We can do everything we think of and sometimes it's just not going to work out.
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Perry- I posted in 'feeding winter patties' already today. But two weeks ago I put a winter pattie in my hive. Got a 50 day today so took a peek, and IT'S GONE! paper and all.
I had no idea they would consume it that quickly. Glad I checked and had another one on hand. Gonna take a stab at making my own next week.
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jen that will tell you your bees are very low on stores, or none at all. for me when i use them, they last a month or better in the winter on a double deep hive.
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They have started brooding. They can starve in 2 or 3 days if they run out. You have to keep it on them daily now.
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I had feed on all of these hives. They never got (or went) to it.
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No rules in beekeeping, had three deeps strong hives low mite count, full of honey dead by January, and write offs in a single deep surviving. ???
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I would be devestated if my one hive bit the dust.
If we have to eat beans to keep them fed... then so bee it! Done it before can do it agian
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Papa ""I had feed on all of these hives. They never got (or went) to it.""
That's tough, so sorry....
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....snip...Maples starting to bloom and fresh pollen and nectar in all hives. Couldn't ask for any better.
What is your growing zone there iddee?
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I have had that happen. The bees that did that to me were the southern packages I had.. They had plenty of reserve to go to, but for some reason, just DIDNT go to it.. Last winter was no where near as ugly as this winter, with regular breaks in the cold, but those bees hunkered down RIGHT where they were and thats where they stayed till death do us part.
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Lee, I'm on the border of 7 and 8.
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Lazy- ""Last winter was no where near as ugly as this winter, with regular breaks in the cold, but those bees hunkered down RIGHT where they were and thats where they stayed till death do us part.""
This situation is definately curious about beekeeping. It's the first winter that I have observed this behavior as well. It has taught me to keep winter patties on hand in the freezer for next year. But even that.... shrug
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I would be devestated if my one hive bit the dust.
That's why beekeepers should never go below having two hives. Lose one of one and you're a goner, lose one of two and you snap back by splitting.
Except for someone who wants to find out if beekeeping is for her/him, no beekeeper should have less than two hives minimum.
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The ones I have been losing to "cold starving" were small clusters going into fall and winter, but of a size that would normally survive our winters. We have had 2 very bitter cold snaps, colder temperatures than we have had since the early 1980's. In each hive I have lost, the queen had begun brooding up some. The cluster was too small to cover the brood and cover the ample stores nearby. The bees would not leave the brood and appear to have starved in place. A little bit larger cluster would have reached honey and covered the brood. A normal winter temperature would have allowed for internal hive food shifting. I'm looking forward to spring.
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Jacob brings up a good point if the bees have a small section of brood that they are raising they will not abandon it to move to available honey stores.
Jen if you are hitting temps of 50 deg it is warm enough for the bees to take syrup especially if it is over the cluster.
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Apis- not hitting those temps yet on a regular basis. Regular temps of 40 now. But winter isn't over here yet. Thanks for that tip :D
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Jen as long as it is warm enough for the bees to break cluster and fly, and with the bees bringing in pollen it is warm enough to feed syrup. With the feeder over the cluster the heat generated by the bees will keep the syrup warm for their consumption. The bees will cluster at night and may not take the syrup but as the temp rises they will continue to take the syrup. In the spring we don't necessarily want them to store the syrup but to have if available for them as a food source and to stimulate brood production.
When we would get packages we would feed syrup on top and a lot of nights we would get frost on the ground the bees will use the syrup when it is warm.
I'm 3 weeks behind you and I will be throwing syrup and pollen patties on the hives before the end of February.
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Apis- I remember LazyBkpr saying how he does this as well.
I'm on the second winter pattie now. The first one disappeared, paper and all, in less than two weeks. Do I still need to feed syrup? And, would that be in a quart jar over the inner cover with a super and a lid over it?
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I'm not Apis, but yes and yes.
It needs to be 55 F. or more for them to take it. The outside temp is somewhat irrelevant, as long as the sugar water is 55 or higher. You may have to change it out when it cools and put warmer jars in. Then warm what you remove and put it back when the other one cools.
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Iddee- then winter patties are not enough?
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Are they as cheap as sugar? Sugar is sufficient, so I would go the cheaper way. I have no idea what winter patties cost or contain.
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Cold starvation is sometimes called "Isolation Starvation" in the UK.
I have heard the suggestion that before winter all the frames of stores should go on one side of the cluster. The cluster then only moves in one direction. Has anyone tried it ?
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Iddee, winter patties are a carbohydrate and protein for the bees, more nutrition. In my opinion it's better for them than just plain sugar. Yes, they are more costly, but I have only one hive so I can afford it, and will soon be making my own. However, I think my plan will be to use sugar syrup when the bees are active and flying, then remove the syrup and put on winter patties when the weather gets too chilly for syrup.
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Your plan is good, but your thoughts are a bit off. Larva need carbs. and protein. Adults need only carbs. The only proteins adults eat are to make royal jelly and bee bread for the larva.
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Jen;
Syrup gives them moisture as well.. IIRC you said they were going after the water pretty heavily?
As long as they can get to water, OR there is minor condensation in the hive they will do splendidly with the patties.
Warmer temps will mean less condensation on the walls for them to harvest, so more flights to collect it.
A couple of points...
As I learned it.. sugar, patties, syrup, are to keep your bees alive until they can get pollen and nectar, IF they are out of honey in the hive. Giving them more than sugar may cause them to rear brood, and consume stores even faster. I know little about patties, I have never used them. So I cant say if thats a good or bad thing. The Protein etc is for baby bees, not the adults.
When daytime temps are warm enough that the bees begiun flying, I put syrup out when I do morning chores, and take it back in the house when I do evening chores. This keeps it warm enough for the bees to fight over. I also begin putting pollen and pollen sub out for them. My goal in so doing is to cause them to begin brooding so they are big and strong when i want to do early splits.
SO; if your just trying to maintain the bees, and they have been looking for water a lot, I would put out syrup nearby, or on the hive if you have a hive top feeder. Putting it on the porch so you can sit and watch them is my preferred method.
Bah.. Iddee beat me to it.
If your bees are already bringing in pollen, they wont be lacking for anything if you put syrup out for them, and it may help them with their need for moisture.
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Lazy- first off what is IIRC?
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IIRC = If I remember Correctly
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"As I learned it.. sugar, patties, syrup, are to keep your bees alive until they can get pollen and nectar, IF they are out of honey in the hive. Giving them more than sugar may cause them to rear brood, and consume stores even faster. I know little about patties, I have never used them. So I cant say if thats a good or bad thing. The Protein etc is for baby bees, not the adults."
lazy, adult bees need protein and they need more than we can give them through sugar syrup, fondant, etc. for them to be healthy productive bees; nutrition. i started a thread on bee nutrition here:
BEE NUTRITION-FAT BEES-RANDY OLIVER (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,764.new.html#new)
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Thanks for posting this Riv- Scientist Randy Oliver is one smart cookie. Have read lots of his stuff.
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I'm sure they do need more than just sugar or syrup, but the point is to get them through until they can get their own. In this case they are already bringing in pollen, so a little syrup would be of more benefit than something with less moisture.
There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?
When you figure in adding HBH, and other suppliments to the syrup for 20 + hives the cost grows pretty quickly. 20 hives can go through 100 gallons of syrup if ONLY fed in early spring and late fall. No dearth etc to feed them through.
I understand everyone doesnt have 20 hives, but after at least one hundred years of subsisting on syrup or sugar when the situation mandates, and doing well, I don't see the need to delve into the bee biology so far that I am counting vitamins and minerals, and spending the extra money to make sure it is perfect, balanced, and contains everything the bees need.. UNLESS thats ALL I was feeding them, and intended to feed them, then yes, I would absolutely agree. But getting them through tough times with sugar or syrup works today just like it did in the late 1700's and all the time in between.. Perhaps even longer.. I am not sure when refined sugar became readily available or when the first beekeeper figured out sugar would keep his bees alive...
NOW!! Having said all of that...... if you prefer to give them more, well, like everything beekeeping, thats entirely your choice, and I certainly wont discredit anyone who wishes to do so!!!!!
BUT, there is something to be said for simplicity. Especially when trying not to confuse someone.
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Lazy- ""There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?""
Well put Scott! as always ;)
This is the first season I actually have plenty of information on how, when, and what to feed my bees. I can't help feel tho, that feeding just sugar water is equivelant to giving kids kool aid until they can make their own pbj's. It's the mother in me, can't help it.
I will say tho, that if I had 50/100 hives I wouldn't be able to afford it. So it's a bit of a luxury for me to be able to give them some nutrition.
Lazy- ""for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?""
Our last two springs we were building a fire into June. Pretty certain it's going to be the same weather forcast this spring. In my bees' case, that's not a short amount of time. Granted there will be some nice days in there, but it's not uncommon to wake up to a foot of snow in May.
Anyway, here is a pic of my super cool miner's caudron, there are bees all over both bowls all day long. It's really fun to watch them coming and going, and I make sure each day that there is water there for them.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs21.postimg.cc%2F9yi2ryxkj%2FDSCF8651.jpg&hash=57df09e5fde66c85342dcdb207ecd4d4328de5d0) (http://postimg.cc/image/9yi2ryxkj/)
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Jen, if you were to separate all the mothers in the USA into 3 groups.
1..Mothers that do not do enough for their kids.
2.. Mothers who do exactly right with their kids.
3.. Mothers that over pamper their kids to the point of being detrimental.
Of 1 and 3, which do you think would include more mothers?
More hobbyist's bees are killed from too much help than from too little.
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Iddee- ""Of 1 and 3, which do you think would include more mothers? More hobbyist's bees are killed from too much help than from too little.""
Well Mr. Wizard, I wouldn't know, cause I fall into the second catagory. My children are not spoiled by any means, but they have been well cared for. :P ;)
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Well Mr. Wizard, I wouldn't know, cause I fall into the second catagory. My children are not spoiled by any means, but they have been well cared for. :P ;)
Well, I believe you Jen, but what about bees :D :D
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LOL!!!! Mr Wizard! I like it! Hope I get the chance to meet Iddee in person some day just so I can call him that!
And... by all means, if you feel you should give your bees something other than sugar or syrup I'll not argue, I was just giving the best advice I know how! If it works out well and isn't expensive PLEASE post what you are giving them!!
If it doesnt work out so well don't say anything. Most women cant stand a gloating male! ;D
By the way, this is from the post Mrs River linked;
Of course, everyone knows that you can’t raise kids on sugar alone, but that’s about all that nectar or honey provide.
:o Just thought I'd add that as I am reading the articles ;D
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Marbees- ""Well, I believe you Jen, but what about bees""
~This is getting comical~
Well, let me see... As with my kids the same for my bees:
I expect them to do their chores. They do.
They are expected to not be sassy with me. Sometimes they are.
When they were tall enough to stand at the counter they are expected to make their own peanut butter sammich's. They do.
When they're tall enough to stand at the washing machine they are expected to do their own laundry. They do.
They are expected to do their homework, but if they need help mama comes to this forum :)
If they have a problem, I hope they come and tell me, but sometimes it's dangerously close to real trouble.
They can have sleep overs but they are expected to be asleep by 9 sharp. Never works.
They are expected to feed themselves. They do. But! If they are having trouble finding food then mama will take them a bag of healthy groceries.
Yah.. That about does it, sitting back in my chair, stretching my fingers. Gonna go feed myself 8)
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Lazy - ""LOL!!!! Mr Wizard! I like it! Hope I get the chance to meet Iddee in person some day just so I can call him that!""
And I hope that I can meet him in person some day as well so I can give him a 'kisshug pat pat pat'
8) :laugh: 8)
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"I'm sure they do need more than just sugar or syrup, but the point is to get them through until they can get their own. In this case they are already bringing in pollen, so a little syrup would be of more benefit than something with less moisture.
There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?
When you figure in adding HBH, and other suppliments to the syrup for 20 + hives the cost grows pretty quickly. 20 hives can go through 100 gallons of syrup if ONLY fed in early spring and late fall. No dearth etc to feed them through.
I understand everyone doesnt have 20 hives, but after at least one hundred years of subsisting on syrup or sugar when the situation mandates, and doing well, I don't see the need to delve into the bee biology so far that I am counting vitamins and minerals, and spending the extra money to make sure it is perfect, balanced, and contains everything the bees need.. UNLESS thats ALL I was feeding them, and intended to feed them, then yes, I would absolutely agree. But getting them through tough times with sugar or syrup works today just like it did in the late 1700's and all the time in between.. Perhaps even longer.. I am not sure when refined sugar became readily available or when the first beekeeper figured out sugar would keep his bees alive...
NOW!! Having said all of that...... if you prefer to give them more, well, like everything beekeeping, thats entirely your choice, and I certainly wont discredit anyone who wishes to do so!!!!!
BUT, there is something to be said for simplicity. Especially when trying not to confuse someone. "
lazy, all i am trying to point out without confusion, if anyone reads a little on honey bee nutrition; very beneficial; we will all have a better understanding as to some of the '5 w's', and the 6th, ' how'......what to feed them, when to feed them, why we feed them and how we feed them, to help our bees maintain themselves and a healthy queen and colony. it is just not about what we feed them, it's about what they have available to forage on to maintain a healthy colony year round and what we might need to do to make up for that and it's not just in feed supplements, it's in our own backyards or rural areas that we live and can plant for the needs of the bees.
cost? simplicity? what do we feed ourselves? and what is the cost? i am not directing this at you, i hear this many times, but the simple fact is, keeping bees is costly and it is not simple sometimes. if we understand the basic dynamics of what is essential in a honey bee hive as far as their requirements for pollen and nectar, etc, then other things will fall into place for us to make the decisions on many other things, including what we feed them, and when, and like i said, it's not all about what we feed them and what supplements are in them, (although i think this might help), it's more than that.
how much money do each of us spend on equipment, and miticides? sheds and honey houses? but we think nothing of the nutrition/the immune system of the honey bee, and wonder why we have lost our bees.
honey bee nutrition; put it in context of what you feed your farm animals; cows, pigs, horses, goats, chickens, etc?
how about ourselves?.....we are what we eat, so are our honey bees. a mother bearing a child cannot pass on health to a child in the womb without some semblance of nutrition to the fetus in the womb. if all we do is consume junk food, drink or use some sort of drug excessively and never exercise our bodies, we will pay the price naturally; and to a certain degree, mothers and fathers pass the genetics and poor habits to their offspring.
our immune systems are just as complex as the bugs we keep in a box. our honey bees have immune systems too. can we help them? or do we hurt them?
so why not take care of them the best we can.
down off the soap box, and my apologies if i have offended anyone not my intent.....
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Oh no, not at ALL!! Not easily offended in most circumstances! If I was easily offended Id have already driven over to see Iddee after he played whos on second with me a few weeks ago.. ;D
Actually enjoying the conversation and researching what research I can find about it... but, It is beginning to confuse me.
I am reading, and re reading the posts on the first link about Fat Bees.. I am up through part three, and have yet to see anything detrimental about feeding sugar or syrup. In fact he recommends it multiple times, including HFCS;
Colonies can also be fed pure granulated sugar during winter—they process the crystals just fine, if the bees in the cluster can reach them! Do not feed bees any impure or unrefined sugars—they can cause poisoning or dysentery. Feed nothing but syrup made from refined (white) cane or beet granulated sugar, or clear HFCS spec’d for bee feed.
So... I am a bit confused..
I feed Mega bee, and or Ultra Bee with some real pollen in early Spring/Late fall, along with syrup, and apparently this is the right thing to do to "fatten" the bees Vitellogenin reserves.
(first I have read about this, TYVM for the post)
At which point, if done correctly, they can now be well prepared for winter, and last several months on Honey OR heavy syrup etc as pointed out above, and do VERY well on this diet until the real pollen begins to come in..
Also noted, is that if they are getting pollen, but putting away little nectar, LIGHT (33%) syrup is recommended. In fact he recommends light syrup for several reasons and situations......
and lets not forget the earlier statement;
Of course, everyone knows that you can’t raise kids on sugar alone, but that’s about all that nectar or honey provide.
So I am even more confused about the prejudice against syrup or sugar..... :'(
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Lazy ""Actually enjoying the conversation and researching what research I can find about it... but, It is beginning to confuse me.""
Oh Thank Gawd, so nice to hear when a seasoned beek is confused!
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Lazy and River, I'm not all together opposed to sugar syrup, but only for short periods, say a couple of weeks maybe. At this point in my beek career, this week actually, I realized that as busy as my bees are, and just at the beginning of Feb. I might be feeding for 4-5 more months. THAT is a lot of sugar feeding without any nutrition that they get from blooms. I have known for some time that honey contains C, and B vitamins and lots of minerals.
I like the idea of trying to keep some of the nutrition for them thru the winter, especially these days when there are pesticides in their foraging, and breath in our air. No I'm not an evironmentalist! But I do know that honey has nutrition in it that they specifically design for themselves.
Isn't this what us bee guardians are trying to do on the planet now, is try and get our strong bees back?
I'll try and find the article where France has now proven the the flora in the gut of a honey bee is amazingly close to the flora in the human gut. That is one reason why honey is so good and healing for our gut. If I put nutritional honey in my gut, I will try and put good food in the honey bee gut. Until I have stashes of honey frames in the freezer, I'll try and keep winter patties on hand... along with sugar syrup. No HFCS. No! Not this girl!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
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Lazy, I am enjoying this topic as well. It means a lot to me, as you can see.
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lazy~
"As I learned it.. sugar, patties, syrup, are to keep your bees alive until they can get pollen and nectar, IF they are out of honey in the hive. Giving them more than sugar may cause them to rear brood, and consume stores even faster. I know little about patties, I have never used them. So I cant say if thats a good or bad thing. The Protein etc is for baby bees, not the adults."
protein is needed by all in the hive, and is addressed and discussed in any material you will find on honey bee nutrition. lazy, my post was not to debate the merits of sugar syrup or anything added to the hive to feed. just added my post to help educate about the benefits one would receive from some knowledge of honey bee nutritional needs in our environments and all the challenges we face as beekeepers. this starts with our natural resources and goes forward, and then determines, based on our weather, pollen and nectar dearths, disease and pest factors; why we feed, when we feed, what we feed, and how we feed. you also mentioned costs. i will refer back to my post # 53.
in my humble opinion, having this knowledge will help us be better beekeepers.
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Every bit of Knowledge helps... well, sometimes it gets me into trouble.. but USUALLY it helps!
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Here's a bit of information that came home with hubby last evening. He and our friend Rich went to southern california for 6 days, family stuff. On their way home they stopped in Fresno, the center of CA agriculture , to shop at Dadant. There were commercial beeks coming in with their two hundred gallon containers that fit in the back of their trucks, and having them filled with Honey Bee Healthy, or whatever other supplements the beeks needed for feeding.
My guys were intently listening to how these commercial beeks were complaining of no nectar coming in. None.
Not enough water ~
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Jen i live in Madera ca just about 20 miles north of fresno dad ant is a half hour from my place. There is no nectar at all right now and i have been feeding , the almond bloom is the first real flow of the year for this area bees from all over the country starting to arrive for pollination. I have gotten close to one and a half inchs of rain in the last week i depend on the rain for the wild flower nectar in the foot hills around me.hope it keeps raining.
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Rod- Crazy! How many hives do you have ?
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Jen i only have ten hives at the moment but am thinking of growing. I am just not sure right now due to drought i do not want to have to feed bees all year only have enough honey to feed the hives i already have.
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Understandable. Might be a good idea to hold tight this year. I may have to split this year, don't know yet. I have one double deep. Don't plan on more than two, so it would be managable to feed them if I have to. There is also plenty of water in my yard over the summer as well. Good luck