Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: Zulu on February 11, 2014, 01:53:49 pm
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As the sources of this BT seem to have dried up, I have been in research mode for the last few months, with calls into suppliers etc.
Finally the Local Rep and I had some good calls and have finally found a local source.... and picked up my supply this morning at a greatly reduced price too.... this is of course for use on my Cabbage patch ;) :laugh:
....but I was extremely interested during my research to find that BT susp aizawai is listed by the EPA as Highly Toxic to Honey Bees.... this was a huge eye opener , so I had to get to the bottom of this.
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/0247.pdf page 20 Table 4 last paragraph
154-24 Honey bee MRID 419748-08 Highly toxic; LE = 15 ppm
so I looked up the MRID through various sources and found the original assessment document from 1991
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/cleared_reviews/csr_PC-006403_24-Mar-92_008.pdf
..... and on page 2 found that they fed a 1:1 mix with sugar water over 11 days and at the highest dose 1000ppm - mortality was 6.7 days. THUS: It took bees 6 days of continuous feeding to be killed by BT at a HUGE dose as well
The researcher on page 4 comes to the conclusion that the dose far exceeds any normal field situation and Bees would not be affected by normal use, and despite the normal method of spraying fields about once a week the exposure would be minimal. He also surmised that Bee Larvae were most likely to be exposed via Pollen from sprayed fields (but no study was done on this).
Simple interpolation by me, says that the single low dose spray we use has limited to no effect - and this is borne out by the millions of frames of drawn comb that have been sprayed by beekeepers to date using Certan, Agree.WG, Xentari etc , with no effects to their bees, but offering solid protection against wax moth. My own 3 year experience has shown tremendous success agaisnt wax moth in stored boxes
It may be this document in the EPA files from 23 years ago , that has prevented BT from being released in the USA for Bee Keepers to get the benefit.
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WOW!! NICE work Zulu!!
OK Iddee, time to get him an office in that fancy building and give him a BEE detective badge!!!!
Put him on CCD and we will have it solved in two weeks! ;D
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Last year at a bee meeting, I asked our state apiarist what he thought about BT. He said it works great ;D , but it was illegal :o .
I have been satisfied with how it works on "cabbage". 8)
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"" OK Iddee, time to get him an office in that fancy building and give him a BEE detective badge!!!!""
Naw, I did better. I gave him a few hives and told him if they die, I will replace them. Much better than an "inside" office. We are outside people.
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What ever happened to Sundance?
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Sundance says he's out until spring or summer.
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Where did you source the BT from as I'm needing some for my cabbage as well. ;D
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Where did you source the BT from as I'm needing some for my cabbage as well. ;D
I get mine here -> http://www.hidhut.com/xentari-p-31.html
I have always been very satisfied with their service.
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I got mine there too.No more wax worms on the cabbage.
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ok thanks, I will get some coming to help my cabbage along :)
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Sorry I missed the posting.
Hid hut is the only online place now. My supplier is only a few $ cheaper, so that is a good option.
Note that a lb is a lot of Xentari as you only use a few teaspoons per gallon of mix, which will do about 100 -150 frames.
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Hid hut is the only online place now. My supplier is only a few $ cheaper, so that is a good option.
I checked Amazon tonight where I got some the last time, and they're out of stock now and don't know when they'll get any more.
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Zulu will send you a small amount if you want it. Enough for a few gallons, rather than a hundred gallons or so that a pound will make.
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Anyone needing help on their cabbages , pls let me know ;) ;) :laugh:
Just stocked up again. Good to spray now in spring to protect for whole season.
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I'll PM you! Just grabbed some frames in the garage, (heated) sitting in the open to take out as i prepare for spring, and a dozen moths flew out, the frames were webbed together.. annoyed at myself....
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Zulu got me some BT for my "cabbage patch" last summer. I sprayed a bit later than I should have, but the spraying cleared up an infestation that was beginning to develop. These posts came just on time--a reminder that as the season starts, the protective spraying should keep things clear in advance, rather than clearning up existing infestations.
A word of advice, related to the topic: as you get your hives set up for the spring, make sure that you don't have any piles of wax debris on the floor. Wax moths from the last season often like to overwinter, hiding in the cappings and start a new infestation. Cleaning them out carefully puts you at an advantage with an ounce of prevention.
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A word of advice, related to the topic: as you get your hives set up for the spring, make sure that you don't have any piles of wax debris on the floor. Wax moths from the last season often like to overwinter, hiding in the cappings and start a new infestation. Cleaning them out carefully puts you at an advantage with an ounce of prevention.
Very good advice! Also if you are running screened bottom boards and covered them over for the winter they need to come out in early spring also.
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I mixed up a gallon of bt yesterday. I only needed a little, does anyone know how well, or long, it will store once mixed? Thanks, Ted
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After two days it starts smelling like rotten meat, don't know if it's still good or not, but i wouldn't want it in my hives. The bees probably wouldn't like it either. ;D Jack
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As Jack said only a couple of days, then it goes rancid.
If you have any fruit trees that have bloomed spray them good, will keep the worms out of the fruit.
A quart will do about 30 deep frames if I remember right. Wife just sprayed 190 medium, 40 shallow and 100+ deep frames and used almost 2 gallons of mix.
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Last I heard he had decided not to re-sell it due to possible legal issues.
Look for Xentari if you live in a farming area check the co-op that your framer uses. Some of these co-ops only sell to farmer with an Ag # Years ago I could get it local in a 1lb pack. Then it became only a 5ld pack. Now I don't know. Go to the valent homepage and shoot your local rep a e-mail. He can at least tell you if it is available in your area.
http://www.valent.com/sales-rep-finder.cfm
SNL over at another place says he gets great results with 1/2 tsp per gallon.
Reidi i tried you zip and did not get a hit. Try the nearest large town?
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Yes, Sundance quit selling it, but Zulu still has it and will sell and ship small quantities. Order now before your cabbage is destroyed. ;D
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I need to check Id's sale rules but I will check where I was getting it. Last I heared you could get it there only in a 5lb bag. Makes sense for a large farmer. And I will not bust packages up and distribute like someone else was.
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Id's sales rule is, keep it honest and upright.
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I better back out then :o :laugh:
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/XenTari-Organic-Biological-Insecticide-1-lb-/111637386429?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fe1b54bd#ht_186wt_902
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Back when I got mine I think I paid $15 maybe less local and of course no shipping.
As far as harmful to bees etc it is the same as Certan b401 sold for bees in Canada. The only catch would be instructions on the application rate as one is marketed for bees and the other large spraying of farm crops. I understand at one time Sandoz had a US license for selling it as a bee application. I guess there was not enough profit margin so they let the license expire. I wonder why when you could buy the same Ag product different name for pennies?
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This is a Canadian site bit now says "Not for sale in Canada"?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.tinypic.com%2F2u5x8vk.png&hash=4d17ed9267dd62d0196aa889cd682a585ddbeb0a)
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I ordered a pound of it from Zulu and am quite happy. He shipped it before he received payment, so then I was in a panic to get him paid before I forgot... Good guy, good product.
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Amen to that LazyBkpr, was the same here.
Ken
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Same with me LazyB, i hope i didn't over load him with orders? i gave his address to my bee club members :o. Jack
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My instructions say mix it when you need it, pour out after 24 hours
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Roger that. Mix what you need and discard what you don't use of the mix. We've had some stormy weather so we unplugged the computer the last few days to avoid losing another to lightning strikes. Just now able to respond. Thanks for the info! Ted
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no need to discard, spray your veggies and fruit trees with it.
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will it still work on the garden and fruit trees after that time is up or will it just make my apples smell so bad nothing will eat them?? :laugh:
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Did not realize zulu was selling it....
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I don't think Zulu is selling it---he's being super generous and providing it to those who request it of him. Considering that he seems to be getting more and more orders, it might be apropriate for those who get his help to offer him some percentage of the cost to cover his ime and expenses.
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I think he was giving away small amounts, but when some started asking for lbs., he started charging for it.
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Even small amounts involve time, packaging and postage. Nothing wrong with enjoying Zulu's generosity, but we shouldn't be taking advantage of him.
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I agree.
I told him what I wanted, and he SHIPPED it... I was like... crap, I havent paid yet!! A good guy deserves to make at least a LITTLE something for his time and trouble!
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Sorry I missed this.
I am just helping those who need it for cabbage loopers. :-) manufacturers rep set me up with a local supplier.
Mix and use within 24 hrs is the recommended advice. It is stable for years in powdered form , dose for all crawlies is 4-8 teaspoons per gallon. I can do a whole hive w two supers with a quart. I mix 1.5 tsp in my quart sprayer. Can be sprayed on active frames too , will not harm our friends.
From my own use 2 seasons without issue, have a few frames that are 3 seasons and also still good.
Yes on using excess on any part of your garden that might get loopers , it is a registered product to be used by Organic farmers so no harm, works against tent caterpillars according to the literature.
If you prefer a commercial supplier, Hidhut is the only online source now.
Not a big deal for me to help keeps, my job keeps me travelling very often these days so maybe not quite as reactive as off season, but I have stk because so many have asked. Two more go out tomorrow.
This is just a service I am happy to provide. Any qty you think you may need I am happy to send you.
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Back when I got mine I think I paid $15 maybe less local and of course no shipping.
As far as harmful to bees etc it is the same as Certan b401 sold for bees in Canada. The only catch would be instructions on the application rate as one is marketed for bees and the other large spraying of farm crops. I understand at one time Sandoz had a US license for selling it as a bee application. I guess there was not enough profit margin so they let the license expire. I wonder why when you could buy the same Ag product different name for pennies?
Did not expire , Sandoz sold the company and Valent did not get their licenses , they had to reapply , and beekeeping was obviously a low priority. The local rep knew about the past but had never ever been asked about its use for bees.
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I bought my BT from http://www.Domyownpestcontrol.com
I get my Permethrine SFR from them also.
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What do you use the Permethrine for Capt?
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I have a friend who is trying very hard to increase his apiary. He has wax moth pretty good this year. He pulled all the larvae/worms and webs off then put them back into the hives. I told him about freezing the frames for 24/48 hours as frames are removed for what ever reason...as a maintenance plan.
What will happen to these hives with the wax moth eggs thru the winter if he does not treat with BT?
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Once it's below freezing, all will be fine. Between now and freezing temps, they could kill the hive out.
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Okay, so this thread suggested that BT may be a little difficult to come by, where do I get BT?
Also Iddee, is this the stuff you told me about where one application to a frame and we won't have to treat that frame ever again?
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Send a pm to forum member Zulu. He was selling it. I guess he still is, I don't know.
Yes, that's the stuff.
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Okay, so this thread suggested that BT may be a little difficult to come by, where do I get BT?
Also Iddee, is this the stuff you told me about where one application to a frame and we won't have to treat that frame ever again?
I would not go that far........if you treat them and store, good to go for many years.
If you treat them, store for however long and then use on an active hive again, after removing from the active hive I would freeze and then treat again before storage. The bees will polish the wax thus removing much if not all of the BT.
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Well said G3.
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What do you use the Permethrine for Capt?
A ground drench around the hives for small hive beetle control.
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What do you use the Permethrine for Capt?
A ground drench around the hives for small hive beetle control.
AHH, ok, that makes sense. Ty!
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I don't think I got enough BT in my stored comb. I didn't need all of it this year, went to pull some out in july and had some wax moth larva in it. Not as much damage as it would have been without bt, but more than i expected. I will be combining bt with moth crystals as I start pulling out of freezer and storing this winter. My storage shed is on the lot with the giant elm, a lot of shade, and is not bug proof.
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I know it's early in the year, but I am stocking up again
If I can help ,please let me know.
My new job has me traveling to the west coast twice a month , so let me know timely and will ship out when I get back.
Rick