Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Dunkel on February 17, 2014, 06:22:36 pm
-
After getting three of my hives back from be stolen, I was asked to place a value on them. These were three double deeps in good condition with telescoping covers. All were strong with bees when taken, not exactly the case when they were recovered. I had to put a value on them then, but I'm curious as to what everyone else would value them as.
-
Depending on the time of year. A hive like you described in spring would bring $250 to $300 around here. Going into winter you would be lucky to get $100 out of the same hive
-
True, I guess I should have phrased it as, Imagine your filling out an arrest warrant and have to put a value on hives recovered.
-
I would value mine at $200 for each of the hive boxes, frames, inner cover, telescoping cover, bottom board and another $100 for the colony of bees. $300 total.
-
I would go to a supplier's website and price the wood, frames, and foundation. Then add the price of 2 packages. Then estimate the amount of honey in each one at 1.25 per pound. "about the price of bulk honey" Add those up and add 50.00 for assembly. I'm thinking 400 to 500 dollars. They want replacement value, not market value.
-
Iddee beat me to it. That is what I would do, then if the paper pushers wanted you to back up your figures you could just hand them a catalog.
-
I would say a 2-deep hive full of bees = $500
-
Well I had thought about the value when first asked when filled the police report a few months before. One had a extra super and another had a deep body and a paint can I had used for feeding. I stated then 1000. But when it came time to charge him I estimated 250 for each. I figured they were worth what I had paid for similar setup a few springs back. What the hives were worth to me were a whole lot more, especially when considering 60 deep frames of pulled comb and a pulled super. Let alone the established bees and assembled equipment. Just curious in what everyone else would of said.
-
They want replacement value, not market value.
So, $500 minimum, $1,25/lb not enough for honey...
-
OK. 2.00 per pound
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf
-
I think up here if you get nailed by a bear (and have electric fence up) the gov. will reimburse at $500.
Besides the lost wooden ware, the bees, and the honey, don't forget to throw in the lost potential income of pollination fees.
-
I'd value one of my hives with bees at $300. And as far as honey goes, if they are asking ME to put a value on it, then I'm valuing my honey at what I sell it for -- $8 per pound. And I sold out, so it must be fair value . . .
-
and what about treatment and management of those bees? Loss of Honey, and or loss of ability to split into more $250.00 hives that year? I don't think you would have to struggle very much to PROVE $650.00 to $700.00 value.. so if they balked at the 500.00 price you could easily show them you were being NICE at $500.00
-
my own horse back estimate of a three deep hive would be more like iddee's number.
I would add one additional consideration.... about the best number I can obtain for the fully assembled price of 1 frame is about $3. of course this only represents the frame with foundation, the labor to put it together but NOT the comb. it takes one season and a lot of effort by the bees to turn that $3 expenditure into a working asset. This kind of transformation should not be overlooked in the total value of the hive.
-
I would error on the high side. Who is going to question the value of your hives? There's no Kelly Blue Book for beekeeping. The only problem I can see is if the thief stole another beekeepers hives too. That other beekeeper may value their hives much lower and that's when they may question your appraisal.
Is there any chance that the prosecutor may look at the dollar value to determine the severity of the crime?
-
I think Iddee is correct. Use catalog prices, as that is what it will cost you to replace them. It's not the market value, it's the replacement cost.
-
I had two hives stolen last summer and I put the value at $600. Here in Alabama that is a felony and the Sheriff treated the case like cattle rustling and I had my brand on all my hives which I put on with a branding iron. The hives appeared back on my property the next day with no damage. The police ran the report on local radio and the local newspaper.
-
replacement cost
How do you determine that Shooter? Does treating those bees, Feeding them to get their foundation built up, and managing them to keep them from swarming not fit into the Replacement cost? if it took me two years to get a hive where it is.. READY for the honey flow, and they vanish.. I have also lost the honey they would have made.
Ordering a new hive and a package of bees cant "replace" the expense and time put into the stolen hive..
I have never had a hive stolen, but it IS a possibility I need to look at, so this thread has made me truly wonder what Exactly, replacement cost is?
-
So both Dunkel and Caesarsfish have had hives stolen and actually got them back? Wow!
There's a couple of stories there I bet. I don't know how I would deal with it, but getting them back would be a long shot here, too many places for them to disappear to.
-
It was a long shot for sure, another keep had a couple stolen later on. He was the one who got the word on where his was. When he got his mine was there also. Never expected to see them again.
-
I don't know if I'd agree with some of the other comments about value. Essentially, there are three "values" you can present:
1. New Replacement Value
This would include the cost of the materials out of a catalog, plus paint, plus a package, ect.
2. Going Concern Replacement Value
This would be the cost to actually purchase the item you lost. In other words, what it would cost you to "buy" an established hive.
3. Lost Income Value
This would include the cost of the item, either in one or two, plus the lost income you couldn't get from the property because it was gone for a period of time.
Most appear to point to value #1. I'd disagree though. The hive that got stolen wasn't new. It was used. So you should be valuing it based on used equipment. It's the same as saying your 2006 Toyota truck got stolen. You can buy a replacement 2006 Toyota truck with the same miles in the same condition from a dealer for $12,000, or you can buy a new 2014 Toyota Truck for $35,000. The replacement value isn't based on the new item. It's based on the cost to replace the item of considerable condition.
In regards to the hive lost, open up the back of ABJ and see how much a hive is going for. Most often you can get a single for $150-200, or a double for $200-250 (most of the time). To me, if you can buy the hive in the same condition you lost it for $250, why should you be reimbursed $750 for the cost of new woodenware and a package?
Someone also appeared to point to option #3. Again, I don't think that's accurate. You can look at the lost honey (at $8 /lb, or $2, or whatever) but it takes work for you to get that honey out, process it, bottle it, sell it, ect. By losing the hive you don't have to treat, replace frames that would be busted, or risk losing it anyway to parasites, diseases, chemicals, ect. If you kept the colony, and you had to put 25 hours of work into it to get $8 /lb, why should you get $8 /lb without doing the work. Doesn't seem right.
I might be a minority here, but I think the accurate "replacement cost" is what you can go out and actually replace the item of comparable condition for.
For me, that's $100-125 for singles in the fall, or $150 for doubles in the fall. Price goes up in the spring, to $150-200 for a single, and $225-300 for a double deep. But that's just me.
-
Would you still feel the same way if it were stolen before the flow, but you were not reimbursed until the flow was over, thus losing from 1 to 4 supers of honey?
Would you feel the same if no "equal" replacements were available and you had to buy new or drive 300 miles to get the used?
I fought an ins. co. over the value of a car. They wanted to pay book value. I told them to find a replacement car or pay my price. Not being able to find an equal replacement, they paid my price.
Remember, finding a replacement, making the deal, and going to get it can be quite costly, too. That should be included in the value.
-
SpecialKayme
"Most appear to point to value #1. I'd disagree though. The hive that got stolen wasn't new. It was used. So you should be valuing it based on used equipment. It's the same as saying your 2006 Toyota truck got stolen. You can buy a replacement 2006 Toyota truck with the same miles in the same condition from a dealer for $12,000, or you can buy a new 2014 Toyota Truck for $35,000. The replacement value isn't based on the new item. It's based on the cost to replace the item of considerable condition. "
BoilerJim
I have to disagree with this because there are not Used Hives for sale on every city street corner like there are for used vehicles. Plus, it is kind of frowned upon if you buy used hives from an unkown source due to foulbrood concerns.
I think this analogy is apples and oranges. The poor beekeeper is already a victim from the theft - he/she does not need to be victimized again by the insurance adjuster or by a court of law.
-
OK, I have to agree with Specialkayme on the point, that if I can BUY a two year old hive, (Or one the same age as the stolen hive) that has been treated, well taken care of, with the same number of bees (kind of bees) and at the same production rate, WITH supers ON if the stolen hive had them on, AND, it was delivered and set on the stand where my hive was stolen from. In which case, the replacement value would be set.
It's the same as saying your 2006 Toyota truck got stolen.
ONLY if you bought that 2006 wrecked for little money, and repaired it to blue book condition.
Hives DONT get worse like a mechanical device does. They get better. If I bought a 2006 toyota with 180 Hp and started driving it, and as time passed the HP went up to 300, and 500, and 800, then it could be compared. But we are comparing apples to oranges.
Hives need treated, requeened, and woodenware replaced. Trucks need brakes, engines and body work.
Sell me a 10 year old truck, its not worth near as much as it was NEW. Sell me a ten year old beehive thats been well taken care of and it will be worth MORE than it was when new.. but I digress.. insurance and Law often cant see the truth. Common sense does not apply, the only thing that matters is how much they can keep from spending while they struggle to take more.
I bought a NEW 88 chevy in late 87.. it was stolen in the spring of 89 from in front of our house.. it was found a week later, totaled two states away.. We had what we thought was GOOD insurance.. we ended up paying for a truck we no longer had for three more years.. WHILE we had two new babies to take care of. We ate macaroni and cheese and Ramen noodles for THREE years because we had to have another vehicle.. so, there is no justice, but it would be nice to know the factual method of appraisal of a beehive. if there is such a thing?
Dang it! Jim said apples and oranges first :(
-
No insurance, just off the top and on the spot come up with a value sort of deal on this particular case. I know the time involved in assembly and painting of six deeps and supers, along with frames was substantial. Let alone scraping together bottoms, inner covers and tops. Especially doing it just to replace missing equipment and still not having pulled combs, and fed up treated bees. And all the while doing it mad and disheartened.
On the bright side I'm ahead of the season for a change. :) Still I wonder about what all we put into getting an established colony going, and its worth after doing so. Makes you not feel so bad about charging a little extra for the sweet stuff.
Just something to think about and discuss during the late winter slack period. Glad I could get some discussion going :)
-
"Just something to think about and discuss during the late winter slack period. Glad I could get some discussion going :)"
And that's what it's all about! :yes:
Some very interesting points being made, respectful discussion, and we all benefit.
-
Would you still feel the same way if it were stolen before the flow, but you were not reimbursed until the flow was over, thus losing from 1 to 4 supers of honey?
Yup. Should it increase it's replacement value? Sure. But not to the point of you buying "new" equipment and reimbursing you for retail honey sales. You would have lost 1-4 supers of honey. How many would you actually lose? Who knows. Maybe the hive swarms and you get one super. Maybe the weather is perfect and you get 5. I can't tell you which one, no one can. But in either way, you'd have to expend considerable time (inspecting, extracting, selling), energy, resources (fuel, electricity, money on bottles, lids, labels, treatments) to get that retail price of the 1-4 supers, that you don't have to spend because the hives were stolen. Are you worse off? Absolutely. But not 4 supers worth of honey at retail price worth. There is a difference between net and gross.
I also wouldn't feel any different if the hives were stolen in September, when you already took the honey off, you didn't medicate for winter yet, you didn't feed for winter yet, and you didn't lose your 30% to winter yet. It's about reimbursing you on the date the theft happened for the value of the item as of that date. Not on what will happen, or might happen, or what you could do with it, or what you could replace it with, whether that item will increase in value or decrease in value, it's all irrelevant to me.
Would you feel the same if no "equal" replacements were available and you had to buy new or drive 300 miles to get the used?
Open the back of ABJ and tell me there are no replacements available. Go to the NC Ag. Review Classified section and tell me there aren't replacements available within 100 miles of you.
You have to assume the free hand of economics is at play. These are bees. They aren't rare collectibles.
Remember, finding a replacement, making the deal, and going to get it can be quite costly, too. That should be included in the value.
No doubt. And I'm not saying it shouldn't play a role in the overall replacement value. My point is that you need to price the cost to actually replace the item of comparable condition, NOT to replace used equipment and an established colony with the cost of new equipment, a package, and your gross profit on your "estimate" of honey sales.
I have to disagree with this because there are not Used Hives for sale on every city street corner like there are for used vehicles. Plus, it is kind of frowned upon if you buy used hives from an unkown source due to foulbrood concerns.
Hives are routinely purchased and sold in the industry. Happens every year out of almonds. To say that every hive is full of foulbrood is shenanigans. Some bad apples in the bunch. It happens. To say you can't ever buy any established colony because 1% are infected with foulbrood is ridiculous.
Hives DONT get worse like a mechanical device does. They get better.
To be accurate, the hive (woodenware) actually does get worse. The colony will get better, for a period of time, before it then gets worse again.
In the end, many of you feel like you've been "wronged" by an insurance company's value in the past. Is that clouding your judgment on what you think should happen here? They screwed you in the past, so that's ok to screw them now? Or is it more about equity? On what the hive is really worth?
To me, it's about what that hive was worth on the day it was stolen. Not what happens in the next 2 or 20 months. Not what you COULD replace it with that's newer or better, and not with what you COULD replace it with that's worse off and inferior (such as a package). It's about putting you in the same place you were, as of the day the theft happened, no better, no worse, no looking at future transactions, not giving you a gain or a loss.
-
""My point is that you need to price the cost to actually replace the item of comparable condition,""
I disagree. The value is your TOTAL LOSS, not just the immediate cost of the item stolen. Your total loss can be many things all added together. To show the extreme, if an elderly person got so upset over the loss that he had a heart attack, the thief should be responsible for all his medical bills occurring from that heart attack.
-
I think your opinion is a mis-statement of the law.
Maybe that's what "should" happen in your opinion, but the "Egg-Shell Skull Rule" and "Proximate Causation" says otherwise.
-
If someone were to come and lift one of my colonies and put a wad of bills in its place, equal to the cheapest bargain price advertised for a colony of bees, they better not expect me to say "fair dinkum"! I have personal investment in time, mileage, genetics perhaps and the inconvenience involved to re-aquire, set up and re-establish hive conditions to a similar level.
A non personalized item that is available locally and is an exact replacement like a chainsaw, is quite a different situation in my mind. Think of having a dog or a horse, with a big investment in training and emotional attachment. Are you going to accept the value that the local dog pound or abatoir puts on a generic replacement?
I dont think this has a, one size fits all, answer. My answer is going to be a lot like Iddee's on this one!
-
I dont think this has a, one size fits all, answer.
Agreed.
-
To be accurate, the hive (woodenware) actually does get worse. The colony will get better, for a period of time, before it then gets worse again.
Only if you dont take care of it. Would you drive that truck you like referencing and never change the oil? Replace brakes or tires?
In comparison, taking care of the truck is WAY more expensive than caring for a beehive. a fifteen dollar box, a 20 dollar queen cant compare to a 2000 dollar engine. In 20 years the bees will likely go up in value if they are maintained and cared for.. care for that truck all you want the value is going to go down. in 20 years its going to be worth a tenth of what it was new, no matter how well it was maintained.. But I understand your point very well, so we will have to agree to disagree specialK. :)
-
I think the eggshell skull rule supports my opinion quite well. The perpetrator is liable for all losses caused by his action, not just the value of the things he took. If you stole a person's insulin and he died from not having it, you would likely be charged with murder, or at least manslaughter. Much more than petty theft.
Hey, Specialkayme, cabin fever is rough. Spring better get here quick. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
R v. Blaue (1975)
""The eggshell skull rule (or thin skull rule or you take your victim as you find him rule of the common law) is a well established legal doctrine used in some tort law systems,[1] with a similar doctrine applicable to criminal law. It increases the liability of a person who may commit a tort against another, from results arising out of those tortious acts.""
""This rule holds one liable for all consequences resulting from his or her tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as that of the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person's head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury.""
-
I dis-agree with SpecialKayme, he must be from a city where if you have a pound of ham stolen, it is easy to say it is worth $5 a pound. I am a farmer where we live in the real world. Bees are like other livestock, when you buy a young pig for $50 and raise it to be butchered, it's market value and replacement cost is not $50. Bees do not reach full maturity until the second or third year and like other live stock, you will have more time and money in them than what the hives cost. Other than just a few garden hives where you watch the sun set with them, bees can be a lot of work. Also the laws are changing in most states where it is a serious offense to steal a hive. Here in my part of the country a lot of people including myself carry concealed firearms and I think this helps with meth users and people who might think about stealing a hive. I do not wish to offend anyone, this is my just my thoughts.
-
Easy Ceaser.. down big fella!! I agree with you, and like the analogy, but we all live in the real world, some of us live in different parts of that real world though. OK!! that wasnt exactly how I meant for that to come across, so I removed it once it was pointed out to me. Sometimes my fingers are like my mouth and say things I didnt think about.
-
At what point in this discussion did I become a democratic meth user that needs to be told someone else is packing heat?
-
Well this thread has strayed far enough off track.
Either bring it back on track or it will be locked up!
-
Well, I guess the bottom line is that what we feel our stuff is worth and what somebody else thinks our stuff is worth rarely are the same. If we go back to the original post, however, Dunkel was asked to place a value on them himself.
After getting three of my hives back from be stolen, I was asked to place a value on them.
He was asking the forum for advice on how to value the hives. He has received several answers. At the end of the day, if he was asked to place a value on them, then he can value them at what he likes.
How is that for getting us back on track? :D
-
I really don't see what was off track, just looking at how or what to consider in estimating value. A lot to look at and think about in determining value.. Anything over a certain amount is a felony here in Ky so that wasn't a big deal, we hit that amount easily. But it got me to thinking as well as a few others on here putting a price on a hive. I valued them at a dollar amount off the top of my head based on past hives I have bought.
I definitely have more time, money and effort into them than that. Considering I didn't plan to sell them, I probably should have priced them much higher and would have had the justification to do so. Let alone the mental anguish from finding them stolen, as well as a butt chewing for leaving the gate open to the hay yard when they left >:(.
I guess I found the answer to my question just as I had figured. There is no answer, let alone finding one from a bunch of beekeepers, they disagree with themselves :D A lot of things to consider and I hope no one else finds them in that situation. Back to the things we all agree on like the best mite control, bee breeds, and wintering configurations :laugh:
-
I never disagree with myself!
Yes you do!
No i don't!
Yes you do!