Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: The15thMember on April 11, 2023, 10:11:42 pm
-
When I went up to my apiary to inspect today, I noticed a huge pile of dead bees in front of one of my hives, so I decided to open them up and take a look. At first I wasn't concerned, as there seemed to be a fair number of bees in the top box, although I did notice a few dysentery stains inside the hive. But as I took the top box off, a bunch of bees flew out of the second box, with that trademark "robber-fleeing-the-scene" look about them. There were hardly any bees in the bottom box, and I noticed a pile of bees on the slatted rack, so I removed the bottom box as well. Then I saw the bottom board. :cry: You can see the carnage for yourself in the pictures.
Here's the background: I split this queen's hive on 3/23. This half of the split contained the original queen, Queen Persephone. I did a sugar roll on the hive the same day I split them, and there were no mites. (All my hives came off the winter clean or mathematically so.) I did queen cell reduction on the queenless half of the split on 4/1, and they looked completely fine. Sometime last week, I noticed this hive, the one with the queen, had a big pile of dead drones out front, which I assumed was a result of a little cold snap we had, but today all the dead bees were workers. There was traffic coming in and out of the entrance, but I'm pretty sure they were just robbers, as they all left in disarray when I started to take the hive apart, then returned to continue to snoop about as I was dealing with the situation, and then started bugging the hive next door when I removed the equipment.
I noticed the queen, who was being well attended, on the top bars of the top box, so I put her in my queen catcher for safe keeping while I worked. Nothing about her seemed amiss. Most of the bees in the top box looked fine, although a few were a little sluggish. The craziest part was that the brood nest, comprising the majority of the bottom two boxes, also looked basically normal. The brood pattern wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't shotgunned, and this queen has never been a perfectly orderly layer. I'm pretty sure the brood was dead, since we had a very cold night last night, and something about it just seemed, I don't know, not alive. But with the exception of a very few larvae/pupae that had some black spots on them (picture in next post), the brood was white, almost all of the young brood was fed, and there were eggs in the bottom box, which indicates to me that 3 days ago, everything was normal. There was no honey anywhere, and there were some dead adults with their heads in cells, but we have lots of spring flowers blooming, so I can't see how they could have starved. I'm assuming the stores were robbed out.
I decided to shake all the surviving bees into clean equipment on a different stand, that way the robbers would be confused, and I could clean out all the equipment. I put them in a single medium with a very reduced entrance, and I gave them 3 partial frames of honey, 1 of pollen, and the remaining 4 drawn blanks. I did see one mite on one of the surviving workers. I froze as many frames as I could fit in my freezer and buried the dead bees in the compost pile. The dead bees looked very normal. Some had tongues out and some didn't. All had all their hair, and very few were struggling in the dead pile. Those that were just looked sluggish or were on their backs and weakly moving their legs.
All the other hives, as far as I know, are seemingly normal. I inspected one other hive today, and they were a little bit low on food, and also oddly had no open brood in their bottom box, but nothing overly alarming. I also did QC reduction in my mean hive, and while I didn't inspect their honey super, when I removed it, it felt quite heavy. As I mentioned, we have lots of flowers blooming, the redbuds, crabapples, and dogwoods are all going very strong. In spite of our coldish nighttime temps lately, we haven't had a frost, since it's been dry. The days have been warm, and the hives have been cranking. I collected a swarm today, which I'm pretty sure was from one of my other colonies.
What do you guys think happened?
(https://i.ibb.co/pPSrRCZ/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-096.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pPSrRCZ) (https://i.ibb.co/2dR0DYv/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2dR0DYv) (https://i.ibb.co/kmwZ9X3/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmwZ9X3) (https://i.ibb.co/K9Nc7Cp/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9Nc7Cp) (https://i.ibb.co/g3pH1Z1/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-116.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g3pH1Z1) (https://i.ibb.co/7v7cDnZ/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7v7cDnZ) (https://i.ibb.co/jHD5sBQ/Dead-Bees-and-Swarm-123.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jHD5sBQ)
-
Don'tcha hate it when that happens! I lost a hive a couple months ago with what sounds much like your scenario. I haven't lost a hive in years!
First question: Do you use quilt boxes?
-
Pesticide.......
-
Don'tcha hate it when that happens! I lost a hive a couple months ago with what sounds much like your scenario. I haven't lost a hive in years!
First question: Do you use quilt boxes?
This is the first time this has happened to me. Oh it's awful! It makes me sick. Such a waste! :sad: I do use quilt boxes, but only over the winter. The hives are big enough by this time of year to regulate their temperature, unless it dips far below freezing, which I think we are out of the woods for by this time in the spring.
Pesticide.......
Ugh, that's what I figured. I just wanted to hear people's opinions without influencing them with mine. I just really hope whatever it is isn't dangerous for long, and that the other bees don't find it!
-
I am doing some fact finding, but you can send those dead bees out to be tested for pesticide exposure. I think you will want to freeze some of them to send, but I am not sure. There may be some cost involved.
-
I am doing some fact finding, but you can send those dead bees out to be tested for pesticide exposure. I think you will want to freeze some of them to send, but I am not sure. There may be some cost involved.
I should have thought of that. I buried them all in the compost pile. I'll keep that in mind if it happens again, or if the rest of the colony doesn't make it.
With an incident like this, what should I do in the way of cleaning the equipment? Do I need to be concerned that the hive itself is contaminated? Is this a vinegar thing, a bleach thing, a lay out in the sun for a few days thing? I'll be freezing all the comb anyway, since it's a good opportunity to get rid of waxworms and beetles, but how much should I worry about the woodenware? What about the comb?
-
I stand to be corrected, but I think all pesticides today have a short active time span, so a week's rest should make it all safe.
-
15th you might be able to contact your state's Dept, of Agriculture and see if there is someone who can test your bees. You might want to do your homework now in case another colony gets into the same pesticides. Also ask them the procedure for handling and shipping the sample.
-
https://www.ncbeekeepers.org/resources/apiary-inspection-program
-
15th, is this a hive that stands alone? Because if there are other hives standing with this one, it would make sense that bees in the other hives would have bee death as well.
-
Jen, when a hive finds a source of food, it stays with it until it plays out. If the other hives didn't find it until after the pesticides' effective life span, no other hives will be affected.
-
Hi Iddee, that makes sense as well :)
-
Sorry for your loss @15th
-
They're still alive! :) I haven't notice any robbing or foraging since I put them in this new box, so I peeked in at them today and the population appears stable. No more bees are dying, and everyone looks healthy. The queen had a section of eggs about the size of my palm on two frames, and they still had plenty of stores. I thought about giving them a frame of capped brood to boost them up, but I'm not sure they have enough workers to keep more babies warm at the moment, so I just left them the way they are.
-
Good News! Some hives just take a hit and it seems there is no reasonable answer. But it looks like to me, that you made the right choice. Very instinctive I might add. Nurse this one along all year and the chances are great that you will have a big strong hive next spring.
I'd like to add ... don't take too long to add another frame of brood and nurse bees. I have seen where the bees may consider the queen faulty if she isn't lay enough .. for too long. So they supersede, and the new queen can't really do any better than the original queen... if there isn't enough nurse bees. Good story here 15th :)
-
Thanks for keep us updated 15th. I'm glad they survived.
-
Rather than giving them brood, maybe just swapping places with a larger hive when they are out foraging. Then the foragers from the larger hive will take up with them, bring in more food and bees without more brood to feed just yet.
-
Rather than giving them brood, maybe just swapping places with a larger hive when they are out foraging. Then the foragers from the larger hive will take up with them, bring in more food and bees without more brood to feed just yet.
That's a great idea! I'm going to do that. Thanks, Wally.
-
Aaahhh Yesss! That is a great idea Mr. Wizard! I'm just now getting my spring bee brain on after a loong winter. I forgot about this idea :)
-
I'm just now getting my spring bee brain on after a loong winter. I forgot about this idea :)
it was in the 80's last week. Now it is 31 and we are in the middle of a snowstorm that is expected to give us 3-7 inches. Gotta love Wisconsin!
Super happy for you! always great to have good news.
-
I switched the hive positions on 4/18, and today I found the queen dead just off the bottom board and the bees building queen cells. Would the new foragers have killed the queen? Or do you think the stress of this whole situation just caused them to supersede?
-
Stress and possibly injured queen from the pesticide.
-
This colony made about 8 queen cells. Obviously I don't need to reduce them to prevent swarming, as the colony is much too small. I either heard or read somewhere recently about a technique where you take down the first capped queen cells and leave the uncapped ones, since the younger larvae are the last to cap, but are the most desirable for making a queens. In this situation, would it be a good idea for me to remove the older QCs? Or would it be better to just let the bees know best and leave all the cells?
-
Ya know 15th?... After 20 years of beekeeping, I stopped guessing and trying to find the answer to odd scenarios, because there is Always Odd Scenarios! So, what I have adapted to in recent years is:
'Hmm, that's weird?' And take a short minute and think to myself...
Are there enough bees and everything they need to rectify this situation on their own? or can I add something to help them along?
Do they need a little extra food, sugar syrup or a frame of honey?
Would it help if I add a frame of brood to help boost them more quickly?
Should I do an OA fog and check the mite count?
Are there eggs?
Stuff like that. I don't analyze for too long.
-
Ya know 15th?... After 20 years of beekeeping, I stopped guessing and trying to find the answer to odd scenarios, because there is Always Odd Scenarios! So, what I have adapted to in recent years is:
'Hmm, that's weird?' And take a short minute and think to myself...
Are there enough bees and everything they need to rectify this situation on their own? or can I add something to help them along?
Do they need a little extra food, sugar syrup or a frame of honey?
Would it help if I add a frame of brood to help boost them more quickly?
Should I do an OA fog and check the mite count?
Are there eggs?
Stuff like that. I don't analyze for too long.
So, it's obvious that I'm an overanalyzer, huh? :-[ :D
-
Well 15th, call me your twin! because I over analyze everything :laugh: I'm 66 yrs now. A few years back I realized how much time I was losing over analyzing... and frankly not getting anywhere over analyzing. So my new mode is "Get On With It Jen!" :D
-
Rule of thumb is, If in doubt, do nothing. The bees have 10,000 years practice.
-
And Iddee, I do follow that code as well ~ ;D
-
Rule of thumb is, If in doubt, do nothing. The bees have 10,000 years practice.
I'll just leave it up to them then. Less work for me! :) Thank you for not saying "millions of years" by the way. 8)
-
This colony made about 8 queen cells. Obviously I don't need to reduce them to prevent swarming, as the colony is much too small. I either heard or read somewhere recently about a technique where you take down the first capped queen cells and leave the uncapped ones, since the younger larvae are the last to cap, but are the most desirable for making a queens. In this situation, would it be a good idea for me to remove the older QCs? Or would it be better to just let the bees know best and leave all the cells?
I wouldn't remove any queen cells. Let the first queen cull the other cells.
If you have enough bees in other colonies, or colonies you think will swarm, I would be tempted to try a split using some of those queen cells. You can always recombine if the split isn't requeened successfully. However you might be reducing your honey crop if you do that. It's your decision.
-
I wouldn't remove any queen cells. Let the first queen cull the other cells.
If you have enough bees in other colonies, or colonies you think will swarm, I would be tempted to try a split using some of those queen cells. You can always recombine if the split isn't requeened successfully. However you might be reducing your honey crop if you do that. It's your decision.
I'm up to 9 hives and out of bottom boards, so no more splitting for me this year. Hopefully I don't have any more swarms.
-
As I mentioned on my swarm thread, I had another hive swarm this morning. She's one of my favorite queens, and since I'm out of bottom boards, I decided to just combine the swarm with this small, struggling hive. I put the swarm above them, with my double-screen board in between. Tomorrow I'll remove the queen cells from the bottom box, give them a few days to get used to each other, and then remove the board.
-
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to introduce a mated queen to this colony? Since there was pesticide exposure what is the quality of the hatched queen going to be? Or sometimes I just think it's a science experiment and let the bees handle the situation themselves. I just wonder if the bees were able to rear a queen from a day one or day two old egg and is there pesticide residue in the colony? It's a small colony and a mated queen would help this colony rebound quicker. Or you could add a frame of brood from another colony. Either way the decision is yours!
-
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to introduce a mated queen to this colony? Since there was pesticide exposure what is the quality of the hatched queen going to be? Or sometimes I just think it's a science experiment and let the bees handle the situation themselves. I just wonder if the bees were able to rear a queen from a day one or day two old egg and is there pesticide residue in the colony? It's a small colony and a mated queen would help this colony rebound quicker. Or you could add a frame of brood from another colony. Either way the decision is yours!
I basically am doing that by combining them with this swarm. If this swarm is from the hive that I think it's from, then this is a mated queen, so once they are combined, everything will be back to normal.
-
I sure appreciate this forum! Sometimes we just have to hash over a situation or problem until we get a solution, or at least get a solution that we can deal with. :)
-
I removed the Snelgrove board today, and I did a quick check for brood in the top section with the queen, and dang it all if there wasn't any! And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. >:( I couldn't find the queen either, although I'd seen her when I hived the swarm. It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her. Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet. I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to.
-
Just to conclude this saga, I had another small swarm which I put on top of this hive, trying again to provide them with a queen faster than they can make one. Yesterday I checked and the virgin in the top is now laying, which is great. Then I checked the bottom and there was BIAS and not a single queen cell! :o So I guess there was a mated queen in there after all and I somehow just missed her?! Who knows. Now I've got two queens instead of none. :-\ I figure I'll just keep the one in the top as a spare until swarm season is over. If I don't end up needing her, maybe I'll put her in her own hive, or just use her colony as a support hive.
Thanks for all the help throughout this whole thing, everyone. Never a dull moment! :)
-
I love a happy ending! :yes: