Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: blueblood on February 22, 2014, 07:02:13 am
-
I decided to start a thread after reading Iddee's thread @ http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,925.0.html (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,925.0.html). I thought the topic of Feral bees deserved it's own space.
So, my discussion starter surrounds my limited experience theory that feral bees are more hardy and less susceptible to disease. I have had more success with my feral colonies versus my packaged bees. I wish I could include nucs in my repertoire (had to ask my wife on the spelling of that one ;). Further, I believe my feral bees would be even stronger in the way of resisting disease and pestilence if I allowed them to build their own comb versus forcing them to build on small cell, etc. The topic of cell size and viability has been discussed at great length among keepers. My first top bar hive is doing well after this hard winter. I mention it because it is feral and they have built their comb all by themselves. On a side note, I will check their drone cells this spring and see if mites are an serious issue or not. What say ye?
-
I don't know how many "feral" bees we have left up here. Most of the stuff caught is usually what someone else just lost. :D
I will say this though (IMHO), that locally raised queens are superior to almost anything else I have purchased. When making nucs I give folks an option, early nuc and imported queen, or later nuc with locally raised queen. Many want the early ones, but I have talked to a few of the folks that bought later ones and they seem to be having at least equal if not better success.
Good thread.
-
First of all, just a little clarification on nomenclature. Feral means living in the wild but descended from domesticated individuals. So once you but a swarm into a hive it is no longer "feral", and as Perry inferred, once a swarm leaves a hive it is "feral".
I draw a distinction between "feral" bees and what I refer to as "survivor" bees. I consider survivor bees to be those that have been feral for a year or more (no treatment from beekeepers). The only true way to get survivor bees is from doing a cut-out that you know has been there more than one year. Or of course if you witness such a nest swarming. Otherwise, I consider all swarms to be non-survivor (chances are they came from another beekeeper or pollinator) Pollinators are notorious for letting swarms go. Farmers want their moneys worth and want to see packed hives. Once these hives hit the crop they boom and quickly become overcrowded and swarm. Pollinators don't have the time to chase swarms. I know a guy in Georgia that chases swarms in canola fields and gets upwards to 400 swarms a year (then sells the hives back to pollinators :P )
I am a strong believer in survivor bees and have been keeping them for close to 10 years or so. Long before it was popular to keep "mutts". My experience has not lead me to believe cell sizes play a significant part. When I first went the route of migrating my stock to survivor stock, I focused on doing cut-outs of those year or older feral colonies. I would put these cut outs onto Honey Super Cell as I "thought" 4.9 was part of the solution. It got towards the end of the season and HSC was out of stock and not shipping, so I had no choice but to put the last couple of cut-outs on fully drawn 5.1 comb. These hives came through winter and performed equally well as the HSC hives, and from that point forward I have not purchased and more HSC and use 5.1 foundation and still remain treatment-free.
A couple of other points mentioned. I also agree with Perry on keep acclimatized bees. But collecting local survivor bees you get that by default. Long before 9/11 caused David Eyre to stop shipping queens to the states, I had much better success with his northern queens than with any I could get from the south or California. In fact it was the inability to get queens from David that drove me to dive into the survivor realm and start raising my own queens from survivor stock.
I am also a firm believe in the power of the nuc. I can't explain why and can only speculate, but it seems that an overwintered nuc will grow fast in the spring and end up out performing a full size hive that season. Nucs bring tremendous advantages not only in spring build up, but also brood breaks to help with varroa. I believe these brood breaks are key to the feral bees defense against varroa. Feral hives swarm at least once a year and get this brood break. We as beekeepers try to prevent our hives from swarming and never get a break in brood.
That's my story...... your mileage may differ ;)
-
Wow, thanks Robo for the informational rich reply. I suppose you are right in reference to their definition once I put them in a box with man made frames and foundations. And, so I wonder if I can still call my bees "feral" if I capture a swarm and put it in a tbh where they build their own comb? I suppose most originated from domesticated bees. But, the point is, their genetics has adjusted to living in this area over time which gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the south in my opinion.
-
I agree, blueblood, but I also believe it gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the north in my opinion.
-
Wow, thanks Robo for the informational rich reply. I suppose you are right in reference to their definition once I put them in a box with man made frames and foundations. And, so I wonder if I can still call my bees "feral" if I capture a swarm and put it in a tbh where they build their own comb?
You can call them anything you want, but I would call them survivor mutts if you aren't treating them. TBH is no different than Langstroth with foundationless. In fact I would argue TBHs are "less natural" than Langstroth, but that's another topic in itself :-X
I suppose most originated from domesticated bees.
Since honeybees are non-native, all come from domesticated lines at some point.
But, the point is, their genetics has adjusted to living in this area over time which gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the south in my opinion.
I agree, blueblood, but I also believe it gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the north in my opinion.
I don't think anyone would argue (unless they are trying to make a buck) that local acclimatized bees are best. :yes:
-
Mutts is a good descriptor. On a side note, my bees have so many shades of color and stripe sizes (<---would make a good study/thread on mutt bees).
Iddee, I'm not completely sure any packages we have available for purchase are from here. I think several nucs are though.
-
Blue, I think there are many truck loads of northern bees shipped south, shook into packages which are sold, then split and sent back north for pollination.
Robo, what I mean is caught bees that have been on their own for a few years are stronger and more reliable than bees that have been bombarded with chemicals, dumped into a large container and mixed from many hives, then queened with a mass produced queen, where ever it is done at or where the bees came from.
-
Mutts is a good descriptor. On a side note, my bees have so many shades of color and stripe sizes (<---would make a good study/thread on mutt bees).
Nature values diversity, that is why the queen open mates with multiple drones. Beekeepers seem to be hung up on pure strains.
Robo, what I mean is caught bees that have been on their own for a few years are stronger and more reliable than bees that have been bombarded with chemicals, dumped into a large container and mixed from many hives, then queened with a mass produced queen, where ever it is done at or where the bees came from.
No doubt, but I would also think northern bees would not function as well as southern bees when moved to the south. It is a too way street.
-
Good reading here.
If I don't see a noticeable difference in performance between the bees I have ordered for this year, over the bees I have caught locally in the past and hope to in the future, I may well be headed in the direction of sticking with the mutts... err, I mean, Local Survivors!
-
Mutts will always be the best in my book, for the simple reason of genetic diversity. Anything that is hybrid or pure blooded will have a weakness throughout the entire hive, with diversity it will only be a certain percentage.
Make sense?
-
That does make sense G. Reminds me of my father law constantly buying pure bread Malamutes because they don't seem to live longer than 5 years.
-
what robo said in his post #3, don't need to add.
the only relevant info from me, is the russian bees and queens i now get from iowa are great, i am not hung up on a pure strain, but they have done well for me, and yes i have mutts of, but these seem to hang in there year after year with little mite problems and good overwintering. i requeen as necessary. caught a swarm late last season, never expected them to make it, they are doing well. not sure who's bees these were, might have been my own.... :D 2 other guys here have let their hives go, so hard to say. total mutts i think with a big fat queen that was similiar in color of a cordovan.
i had a commercial friend/mentor that purchased the russian queens and reared his own. our losses were greatly reduced, he fell very sick and so i had to resort to other ways to obtain bees and queens. in general, when i stopped getting southern bees and southern queens, my losses were greatly reduced. just saying. lots of variables on this.
-
I prefer local mutts over package bees and prefer local queens to mailed /shipped . I feel the local mutts have a leg up on shipped bees because
1. Swarms are from a healthy well populated hive
2. Local bees are climatized to your location
As Robo said a break in the brood cycle is good for v mite control, I stopped making splits by the box and have gone to NUCing the hive up to 3 times a year. By that I meen I take the queen and put her into a 5 frame NUC and shake 3 or 4 frames of bees into it. The parent hive has about 3 weeks with no brood to care for and they can really pack in stores. The NUC gets a frash start and can be a 2 box production hive by year end. Jim
-
I pretty much like Bsweet's approach. I don't normally do true "splits" anymore, instead make up nucs.
-
I pretty much like Bsweet's approach. I don't normally do true "splits" anymore, instead make up nucs.
Perry, do you let the old hive make their own queen? Do you place any brood in the nuc?
-
Can't speak for Perry but I let the hive make a queen. If you place brood in the NUC then there is no break in the brood cycle in it, but if your just trying to increase the number of hives and not worried about mites then brood is ok. Jim
-
I guess it really depends on when and why. When I'm making nucs for sale, I almost always add a queen (offshore or local, depending on availability).
If I am going through a yard and find swarm preps in a hive, the queen and 4 frames go into 1 nuc, and any other good frames with nice cells go into 2 frame nucs. I have taken to keeping a deep, divided in to 4 - 2 frame sections in most of my yards for just this reason (seems like I'm a day late more often than I'd like to admit).
The parent colony is then allowed to re-queen itself (like Jim). Everything gets a bit of a brood break except the nuc with the queen.
-
I guess it really depends on when and why. When I'm making nucs for sale, I almost always add a queen (offshore or local, depending on availability).
If I am going through a yard and find swarm preps in a hive, the queen and 4 frames go into 1 nuc, and any other good frames with nice cells go into 2 frame nucs. I have taken to keeping a deep, divided in to 4 - 2 frame sections in most of my yards for just this reason (seems like I'm a day late more often than I'd like to admit).
The parent colony is then allowed to re-queen itself (like Jim). Everything gets a bit of a brood break except the nuc with the queen.
This would make a good thread. Not just about nucs but related to splits to nucs.
-
Perry:
What are the four frames? Are they brood and honey frames or, are they just honey frames? Just any four frames with bees?
-
Perry:
What are the four frames? Are they brood and honey frames or, are they just honey frames? Just any four frames with bees?
In a perfect world? :D 1 frame with plenty of stores,1 frame with empty comb, and 2 frames of capped-ready to hatch bees that will free up laying comb and provide the nurse bees. Clearly no Q cells on any of these. This does not provide a brood break, but does prevent the loss of bees.
-
Dave,
I share your philosophy on the feral bees. They tend to survive longer in my apiary then those I have purchased from Georgia. My Georgia bees have produced the most honey each year I had them but they all died over the winter.
Iddee said:
“Bees that have been on their own for a few years are stronger and more reliable than bees that have been bombarded with chemicals, dumped into a large container and mixed from many hives, then queened with a mass produced queen” I totally agree with this statement.
Riverbee, who is your source for Russian Bees in Iowa? I have always been interested in experimenting with a couple of Russian hives.
-
Riverbee, who is your source for Russian Bees in Iowa? I have always been interested in experimenting with a couple of Russian hives.
Ditto.. maybe they are close to me and I can go scrape information from their tongue's !!
-
I find this thread very interesting. As a new beekeeper, starting this year, I intend to rely on swarms and/or cutouts to fill my hives. I want strong healthy bees that are acclimated to our area and will be able to survive our winters. Most of our shipped bees are brought up from California or Southern Oregon, which is fine, but they don't seem to do well with our wet cold winters.
Currently there is a feral hive in a big fir tree in my yard and I know where another feral hive is on a neighbors property that I intend to set a trap for as soon as the weather warms up and swarming becomes likely. I also hope to assist my bee club mentor with some swarm collections and cutouts this year, which will also give me some bees to add to my hives.
-
jim~
Riverbee, who is your source for Russian Bees in Iowa? I have always been interested in experimenting with a couple of Russian hives.
lazybk~
Riverbee, who is your source for Russian Bees in Iowa? I have always been interested in experimenting with a couple of Russian hives.
Ditto.. maybe they are close to me and I can go scrape information from their tongue's !!
okay what are you guys willing to trade me for my sources?......... :D
you guys will get hooked on these bees, and will love less mite problems and better wintering! dunno if you want to work them in really loose shorts lazy :D
1st one: manly bigalk. vice president of the russian honey bee association. he's in cresco, iowa, and is already sold out for queens and nucs for 2014.
talked to him recently. you can check back with him or his wife (linda), (great folks) and have him put your name on a list for queens maybe. good folks!
golden ridge honey farms, no website, but can find his info on the rhba associations website.
2nd one: jason foley. he's in des moines, near easter lake, iowa. he is up and coming and working towards becoming a member of the rhba, another cool guy/beekeeper. his website:
Foley's Russian Bees (http://www.russianbee.com/OurBees.html)
i think jason might have queens available in june or july, but sold out of nucs for 2014.
even with queens only available, you can requeen your hives with a russian queen or start a nuc. just follow the advice of queening non russian hives/nucs with a russian queen.
hope this helps you guys!
-
a robo snip....
I am also a firm believe in the power of the nuc. I can't explain why and can only speculate, but it seems that an overwintered nuc will grow fast in the spring and end up out performing a full size hive that season.
tecumseh....
I see much of the same thing here. I would SUSPECT the difference I see in this regards is the power of a group of nucs all headed up by very young queens. I love to find a very old queen(which is pretty much the primary bases of my own breeding program < program may be a bit too formal a word but you do get the picture I hope) that is still performing acceptable but I would never expect to see the same performance in the spring time of an old queen when you compare her to a one year old queen. I suspect it is this difference why many old school beekeeper commonly replaced queens that were two years old.
and thanks for your input on this thread Robo.
-
I agree with robo here. I think when bees are in an established hive they're in a maintaining mode. Young overwintered bees are in buildup mode.
Any queen I have that is over a year old I put into a nuc as soon as the blackberries bloom. Even 3 yr old queens are liable to catch or surpass the hive they came out of.
This is how I prevent swarms.
-
In my novice opinion, I think that feral bees are more acclimated and adapted to the local environment. I have a feral hive under a neighbors building 1/2-mile up the road. They are under the floor, but they enter on an unused sidewalk and go under the floor. I am going to set up a Hogan trap-out hive and see if I can catch some of them. They have been in this building for seven years. That makes me think they are well adapted to our area.
-
after looking through the two nucs that I have, the cells seemed abnormally small, these are supposedly Russian/ Italian hybrids. I'm not bothering with the cell count or anything like that, just curious....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
-
I have a feral hive under a neighbors building 1/2-mile up the road. They are under the floor, but they enter on an unused sidewalk and go under the floor. I am going to set up a Hogan trap-out hive and see if I can catch some of them. They have been in this building for seven years.
If the owner is comfortable with the bees being there ( I assume he is since they have been there 7 years). I would suggest you rethink the Hogan trap-out.
My take would be to set up a few swarm traps in the area to catch swarms from it WHEN THEY ARE READY TO SWARM, not when you think it is OK to steal bees from them. Despite all the claims of getting multiple nucs from a colony with the Hogan method, I'm skeptical that it does not impact the mother colony. First of all you aren't getting the genetics on all these nucs, but only one if you get the queen and sacrifice the mother colony in the process.
Long term I think it would be more beneficial to you (and the mother colony) if you leave them alone and catch swarms (with genetics) for multiple years.
I've learned a long time ago that a feral colony remains stronger in it's feral location than if put into a man-made beehive. Despite our desire (and confidence) that we are "helping" the bees, I often see the contrary.
-
Well said Rob!
-
Agreed Rob. I am keeping one of my bee trees in the yard to hopefully catch swarms off of it. Kind of like a perpetual bee package supply store. :)
-
I Agree with Rob as well. That is exactly what I do. I keep track of the feral hives in this area. Trees, old barns, old equipment etc, and put my swarm boxes in the area.
-
I get most of my swarms from down in the industrial area. I don’t know where they come from or where the live (or what to call them) but it is good for a swarm in the trap or two every year. I usually make up nucs and overwinter using my own bees (put a frame of bees in a queenless nuc with fresh wax). This year has been hard on me. I lost all of my nucs, and a lot of hives. I may do a split and raise queens from the first split and then add frames of bees to the mating nucs to get back up to strength.
I did get a hive of black bees last year. If they are Russians you guys can have them. As mean as they are they did not make our wet, mild winter.
-
i posted some info here on where to get russian bees in my area, and also another thread a number of links on their management and characteristics.
based on the number of thank you pm's that have been sent to me, all i can say is this, when i can't get nuc's and queens from my 'secret' suppliers cuz you all beat me to it......
guess who is going to be showing up on your doorstep looking for you to SHARE BEES..... :D
-
LOL.. I didn't order any Mrs River.. but you show up on my doorstep you just load up what you want.. my wife will tell me when your gone so I can come out from under the bed.
-
LOL lazy!!!!...... :D :D :D
ps, i will just bring a bottle of the captain to coax you out!....... :D
oops, forgot, i don't back expensive trucks up to well...... :D