Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: LazyBkpr on October 28, 2014, 12:52:28 pm

Title: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 28, 2014, 12:52:28 pm

   In looking for other information, i am finding again links I have already perused, and would like to put up some links to this information to make it available for all to read..
   Perhaps a treatments section in the forum to make locating the information on treating and medicating hives easier to find?
   Anyhow, Links...

   OAV Research in Central Italy where the use of OAV is common (and approved)
   http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2004/enzo_1.pdf


   From the EPA..
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf

  Randy Oliver links;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/
  I refuse to use the liquid treatment and shorten the life of my bees, but will post links;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/does-oxalic-acid-treatment-of-nucs-affect-honey-production/

   Another recomending liquid and stating that vaporization is too dangerous and that he will not recommend it;
http://www.talkingwithbees.com/beekeeping-how-to-guides/oxalic-acid-beekeeping
   My arguments about the idiocy of such people will be posted below.

   A list of some food that contain OA;
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/oxalic-acid-foods-list.html


   2007 study on the effects of other treatments on honeybees;
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/unrestricted/lmburley.pdf

More links;

http://beekeepingnaturally.co.uk/varroa-mite-treatment-using-oxalic-acid-vaporization/#.VE-tIRZ3Nco

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/Varroa/oxalic_acid_vapourisation.htm

http://kiwimana.co.nz/kiwi-oxalic-acid-vaporizer-launch/

http://www.geocities.ws/vaporizerklaus/Oxalic_Acid.html

http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Paper/10479474.aspx

http://oxavap.com/product/varrocleaner-oxalic-acid-vaporizer/
http://www.biovet.ch/en/Imkerei/varrox-vaporizer.html
http://www.bedillionhoneyfarm.com/store/1703/32553

  And, the OAV Fogger for commercial applications;
http://beeinformed.org/2014/02/oxalic-acid-fogger-demostration/



    This is not meant to be a one way USE OAV NOW thread. if you find something Negative about OAV PLEASE post it..

   In Using OAV I have to say that i can personally refute many statements about how TERRIBLY DANGEROUS it is to the beekeeper. I have found OAV to be a thousand times safer to use than any other chemical I have used or seen put into a hive to treat mites.
   With over 300 applications at this time, I have NEVER attempted, purposefully or accidentally to breath the fumes, and at this point I have no experience with what happens when you do. I have been told by those who HAVE caught a whif of the fumes, that they close up instantly, ant that it is NOT possible to INHALE the OA vapor. Am I wrong? please tell me!

   Also as I understand it, many sites tell you that the OA is caustic and will blind you and burn your skin BADLY...
   I can absolutely refute this beyond all doubt. I will pick up the OA in my fingers to prove it. I often get it on my fingertips and have suffered NO ill effects. Mix it with syrup or water, and it is much like battery acid, creating a itching burning feeling. I suppose, that IF, you were in a location where you had no means of wiping or washing it off, it MIGHT cause a skin rash.
   I have gotten it in my eye, and it was unpleasant. I rinsed my eye, and within moments I was fine.
   I have gotten it on my bare arm, and felt the itchy burning sensation.. i washed the spot off and the feeling instantly vanished.
   My experience has shown me that the people yelling the loudest are ignorantly crying WOLF, and that with time and experience everyone will start to ignore them.
   So there is NO danger at all?
   i didnt say that. if your skin is sensitive, you may well develop a rash. if your tied to a post and someone sprinkles the OA on you it will start to BURN you after a while. What I am saying, is that it is SAFER than any other chemical i have used, or seen used. It is not absorbed through the skin and will NOT poison you like MOST other chems will. I am not saying to toss out safety and common sense.

  I often say that I am astounded, astonished and totally confused why anyone would use ANYTHING else to treat their bees. WHY would you use chems that might ruin your queen, or that will make your drones steril or less fertile? WHY would you use chems that make the majority of your bees LEAVE the hive and hang out on the front. WHY would you use chems that cause your queen to stop laying for up to a week? When something is available that has no effect on the bees, yet kills mites?

   Thats the beauty of being a beekeeper, you do it your way!

   In another thread one of the folks here said that OAV causes mild brood kill..  In three treatments in August (120 applications) I found no difference in brood between treated and untreated hives, so perhaps the brood kill was because of different circumstances? Different temps?
   It was also stated that OAV causes supersedure of queens..   I can thankfully say that of 47 hives I only had a single supersedure AFTER the treatment, and that single supersedure was of a package queen, from which eight of her package compatriots had already been superseded.. was it because of the OAV?  I doubt it, but have to admit it is possible.

   My greatest success story is with two hives I brought back home from buying out another beekeeper..
   Two hives in double deeps that were in SERIOUS trouble..   DWV was very evident, and in opening drone cells, i found 4 to 6 mites in EVERY cell I opened..
   Within ten minutes of setting those two hives on the stand I had the vaporizor heating up inside the first of the two hives.
   Middle of summer, lots of brood..  A week later I treated them again..  no third treatment was administered.
   Those two hives EXPLODED with bees. BOTH had to be split twice, and they STILL produced more honey than any of my other hives.


   So, my experience has shown that OAV works well, works safely, and is easier on the bees than anything else I have heard of to this point..  I have Hopguard in the back room in case i need it, but I have not needed it. I would try MAQS if necessary..  But so far, the OAV is exceeding my wildest hopes and expectations..
   I have long believed something that Is best explained by Randy Oliver...
   
   The plain truth is that a colony of bees does not differentiate between agricultural pesticides, and beekeeper-applied miticides. What actually affects the colony, is the cumulative load of all toxins that the colony is exposed to, ....

   Randy Oliver, the learning curve part 2


   it is, and has been my uneducated opinion, that using something naturally occurring, that has little to no effect on the bees, and will NOT build up in the wax or combine with other insecticides to make a stronger poison/insecticide can only be a good thing.

   I am VERY MUCH WITH Mrs. River (Riverbee) in her philosophy of dont treat if it is not needed. I feel that OAV gives me that freedom. The freedom to wait and watch, and yet, be ready to FIX a problem in mere moments.
  I believe that the bees will not build, or show resistances if there is nothing to resist. The only way we will know if we are succeeding in creating bees that can co exist with Varroa, is if we WAIT, and force them to fight back..  Those who cannot fight back get treated, and given a different queen, raised from a colony that IS at the very least TRYING to fight back...

   Treating 50 hives takes so LONG!
   Do you really think it takes longer than treating with any other method? Is 2.5 minutes per hive longer than it takes to break down the hive?
    In order to treat with hopguard, i have to open the hives. I have to get to the lower brood box, which, for me means removing the two upper boxes. Then i can place the strips in as the instructions require..  with 50 hives, it will take the better part of the day to do this. A LOT of lifting, and many aggravated bees when i tear their homes open...  Worse, i have to remove most of those strips in a few days or weeks.. opening the hives again.
   With OAV I do not need to open the hives. There is no lifting. With two vaporizors, I can work my way down the line of hives pretty swiftly. With travel to the outyards, It takes me about 5 hours if I do not hurry. If... WHEN I have 100 hives, i expect it will take me a full day to treat using the same method..
   I also expect, that sooner or later someone will produce a vaporizer capable of treating a hive much faster and easier..  Beyond even that, I expect resistant bees to make ALL of this completely useless. As I continue to add resistant genetics, i HOPE to eventually "find" my old vaporizer on the shelf, and not so fondly remember the days when I had to treat my bees....
   
      Feel free to post pros or CONS. I want to hear them! if i can refute them, i will, if I cant, i will look into it further and might just step across to your side of the fence.. 
   In closing...   Please just read the Introduction to The Hive and the Honeybee..  Written in 1911, Over one hundred years ago, and then tell me that beekeepers are different today!

   http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;cc=bees;idno=5017631;node=5017631%3A3;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=6;page=root;size=s
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on October 28, 2014, 01:13:58 pm
Holy Schmoly Guacamole Scott!  :D Let me go get a cup a jo and read this thesis, so I can join on an intellectual level  :)

Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Marbees on October 28, 2014, 01:33:10 pm
Efficient and hassle free treatment. Easy on bees and beekeepers.
Never liked using Apivar or formic acid. Varrox is my choice No. 1 for varroa control.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Yankee11 on October 28, 2014, 02:12:36 pm
Wow, nice Lazy.

Now you you just gave me something else to do during winter. (read through this thread)

BTW, I love mine. Just started using it. Amazed at how the bees don't mind at all. Only thing I found was that I have it insert it before it starts vaporizing.
They did seem to attack it if I started it up then slid it in.

I on your side of fence.

I have gotten a wiff, and no way I could inhale it. Don't know about a getting a small enough dose that you can't detect it? I use a long cord. Hook to battery, start timer and walk away for 2.5 minutes.

BTW, since brood count has dropped off now. I'm gonna do a final treatment in next few weeks.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on October 28, 2014, 04:33:34 pm
I'm finishing up my 3 winter treatments this week, but I still watch my sticky boards all winter long.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on October 28, 2014, 09:56:54 pm
scott, you have done some amazing research and provided links to information on the treatment of mites with OAV, that many new beeks will be looking for info on to help them decide. thank you!

i would just like to clarify something:

"I am VERY MUCH WITH Mrs. River (Riverbee) in her philosophy of dont treat if it is not needed. I feel that OAV gives me that freedom. The freedom to wait and watch, and yet, be ready to FIX a problem in mere moments."

on another thread we were discussing apivar and the use of OAV with honey supers on:
How do you Fellow Beekeepers like Apivar (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,2799.msg37776.html#msg37776) 

in that thread there were comments about OAV, and that it was not approved for use  while honey supers are on in the USA, Canada or Europe.  some beeks have used OAV with honey supers on. 

my comment was, with any miticide, there is residue:  "i just don't think we ought to be treating bees with any chemical/drug while honey supers are on." and "IF i treat, it is when i see the need to."  i want to clarify and say, i do not advocate not treating your bees.  i keep russians and mutts of. these bees are relatively resistant to mites therefore i find it not necessary to treat unless i see a problem.  we all have different situations and genectics of bees we keep which perhaps and does command a different philosophy, but i also think, as i said, any hive treatment for any bee malady ought to be done without supers on. 




Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 28, 2014, 10:46:08 pm
I agree completely, I believe one of the links I posted has information on the amount of INCREASE in Oxalic acid in the hive a specific time after treatment..  Those measurements are done in Parts per million, In some cases no increase is found, and in others VERY little is found..    Honey, has Oxalic acid in it naturally, obtained from the pollen/plants the bees visited, the increase after treatment is less than negligible..
     I am still looking for several links to information I have found in the past. Two of them  were studies done on the use of Oxalic Acid Vapor, one in France and one in Canada... not having much luck but am still looking.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: tecumseh on October 29, 2014, 06:39:10 am
I am impressed with you work here LazyBkpr.   Perhaps you should have been a research academic..... but being a beekeeper is much more fun.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on October 29, 2014, 06:49:58 am
I am impressed with you work here LazyBkpr.   Perhaps you should have been a research academic..... but being a beekeeper is much more fun.

Research Academic? That would be taking the easy way out tec. Now being a beekeeper, that's tough. :)

While I do not disagree with almost everything Scott has posted on this subject, I am bound to not use any material not approved for use here, to do so would set me up for life altering legal problems. Because I sell honey to the public, what I believe has little to do with what I am allowed by law to do legally. There are lots of folks that use homemade remedies in thier hives, and they may or may not neccessarily experience some success using them, but if anyone should ever get sick and it could be traced to some unapproved method being used............................ C:-) :sad:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 29, 2014, 09:13:12 am
In my searches I have come across situations where beekeepers were fined for those home made remedies.

   I know someone who is a prominent beekeeper who uses just such a remedy with great success.. But I do wonder if the threat he constantly lives under is worth it.
   You can use OAV legally Perry, here, the State Apiarian is more concerned with things that might cause problems, and in a roundabout way says he uses OAV and talks about the evils of using OA wash, so i can only assume he has tried that as well..  If he is ever replaced with a young gungho inspector there will likely be a lot of us upset.  However..  unless they make it illegal to use the wood bleach to polish my frames while they are still in the hive I will keep doing so, until i no longer need that crutch to keep my bees alive.   O:-)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on October 29, 2014, 02:23:24 pm
Great summary of the topic Scott.  Very convincing.
Not trying to redirect the discussion, but, do you think that someone with access to an electricity line near his hives could successfully use a transformer (like those used to heat and embed foundation wiring) to provide the current for running the OA vaporiser?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on October 29, 2014, 02:50:54 pm
Excellent thread! :t3816:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: kebee on October 29, 2014, 06:20:44 pm
 efmesch I will answer your question about the transformer, yes you can if it puts out 12 volts and at least 4 amperes of power, any less and it would not get hot enough to to heat the oxalic powder.

Ken
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on October 29, 2014, 06:36:32 pm
I'll have to check out the amperage I get on my car battery's charger.  Lately I've been using it for embedding my foundation wires---on the slow setting.  Maybe on the fast charge setting it'll give 4 amps.  If so, I'm well on my way to trying OA.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 29, 2014, 11:36:47 pm
   Interested to know the output of your charger.. I suspect it may not be enough, but am hoping..  worst case scenario, use a battery you can carry, but keep the charger hooked to it while you do the hives. It will smooth out the voltage, make sure there are enough amps, and keep the battery charged while your treating the hives..  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 31, 2014, 09:13:46 am

   An Interesting method of applying OAV in "bulk" application.. from Beesource.   I did get a kick out of the Hazmat suit, but after seeing the amount of vapor floating about I dont blame him.

     http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295727-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporising-Bulk-Hives
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on October 31, 2014, 03:22:50 pm
I see some pros and cons to this method. Does many hives sooner. Easy to handle. boards at the ends of the hose seals off the entrance.

Then cons: Loosing a lot of oa in the air. I see why he is using a face mask and suit.

For those of you who use OA, what do you think of this method?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 18, 2014, 10:12:43 am
Another significant research paper, _An Investigation of Techniques for Using Oxalic
Acid to Reduce Varroa Mite Populations in Honey Bee Colonies and Package Bees_, is HERE (http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=entomologydiss).  This dissertation provides a good history of the varroa mite, plus all the approved products for mite treatment (as of 2008).  In my view, its a good survey of the varroa issue.  Only one or two changes in approved treatments since the paper was written.  The OA portion of the paper fits in your list Lazy.    I recommend this dissertation to inquiring minds.  :-)

P.S. I read another report quoting a State Apiarist from the East coast who expects imminent EPA approval of OA for use against mites.  Kind of thin on the actual source, but I'll hang my hat on that hook of hope (but Not holding my breath).
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Beeman on December 18, 2014, 07:06:53 pm
I too use OAV to treat my hives, when I need to treat. I only treat when I see evidence I need too. Perry has a very real & valid point. Therefore I do NOT treat with any supers on the hive. Not that I think it would be a problem because I don't. But because OAV is not approved in my state. Our state apiarist said it not illegal, just not approved. Hoping that will change soon since I want to start selling nucs & queens and I can't if I use OAV.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 18, 2014, 07:18:34 pm
Sure you can Beeman..  Stop claiming those treatments re for mites.

   Thanks Lee, I will go check that link out!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on December 18, 2014, 07:27:20 pm
I wouldn’t let oxalic acid vapor stop you from selling queens and nucs. It might never get approved. I also use it. This year I treated 6 times with it. I treat my hives with the supers off for four hours. Its by far the best mite treatment out there. I can treat anytime when the temp is above 40 degrees. I start treating in march and treat thru out the year if I see any mites.   
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 18, 2014, 10:07:43 pm
I too use OAV to treat my hives, when I need to treat. I only treat when I see evidence I need too. Perry has a very real & valid point. Therefore I do NOT treat with any supers on the hive. Not that I think it would be a problem because I don't. But because OAV is not approved in my state. Our state apiarist said it not illegal, just not approved. Hoping that will change soon since I want to start selling nucs & queens and I can't if I use OAV.

Most use it to treat the inside of their wooden boxes.   ;D  If mites die, well, that's just a side effect.

I assume you're referring to Mike Studer?  He told me about the same thing when I asked him about using BT for wax moths.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: kiwimana on December 18, 2014, 11:56:43 pm
Hi,

Yes we use it on our hives, it works well the dangers can be removed if you seal the hive when treating.

Here is a video of me using the vaporizer we sell, we are happy to ship anyway in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1ibcFzMxw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1ibcFzMxw)

Thanks...Gary
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 19, 2014, 12:16:05 pm
Thats good to know.  I will write down your website info so I can give it to folks interested in OAV..

   I'm sorry if this is not politically correct..  but I often see folks petrified of how "dangerous" those vapors are...  A recent research article I read about OAV precluded the use of vapor because it is so dangerous..   Really?  So you would rather make your bees ingest the liquid and shorten their already short lives?

  Having treated better than 300 times..  it makes me wonder if those folks are just ignorant or if they have some OTHER reason for putting down vaporization?   Maybe those people are unable to use common sense or even a small amount of caution?  Because the smallest amount of either is all it takes to be completely, totally, and beyond any doubt safe, while using the vaporizor..   To me, its like saying  DONT SWIM! You will get water in your lungs and drown!   In the same context, that makes water a VERY deadly substance to be near.
    So I think int he future I will have to start condemning swimming and see if I can get it outlawed!!  FOR YOUR SAFETY!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on December 19, 2014, 01:04:44 pm
 I use a paper mask N-95. My varrox vaporizer comes with a long power cord to make oav very safe to use. I stand back away from the oav vapor for 3 minutes. Disconnect the power and wait 7 minutes more. Pull out the vaporizer and go on to the next hive. I can treat 6 hives, hour and half. I'm thinking about getting another vaporizer to cut my time in half. What I like about oav. I can treat during march to check my mite load. If my hives need treating I treat right away. I couldn’t treat with the mite away pads during march because its to temp sensitive.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 19, 2014, 01:56:47 pm
Hey Scott.
It does seem rather farcical, but using something that is "not approved", whether it works or not, is dangerous or not, legal to use, etc etc. can make a lawyer somewhere rich if anything comes up.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on December 19, 2014, 02:34:33 pm
 What are we suppose to do. Let our bees die because its not approve for beekeeping.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on December 19, 2014, 02:46:03 pm
I agree Ray. I have heard in my area that the bee inspectors ask what kind of treatment is used for mites, if the beeks say OA, the inspectors say "Okay"   :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 19, 2014, 02:52:55 pm
We use dangerous chemicals everyday.  We manage.  Its a wonder more of us don't die in gasoline fires.....  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 19, 2014, 02:54:42 pm
I agree Ray. I have heard in my area that the bee inspectors ask what kind of treatment is used for mites, if the beeks say OA, the inspectors say "Okay"   :)
I wish I could say that Jen, I really do.  Its the elephant in the room around here.  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on December 19, 2014, 03:24:21 pm
Hi Lee,

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48

This is a nice link for the foods that people eat with oxalic acids in them.

Tell the women beeks in your club that CHOCOLATE and RED GRAPES = WINE, has oxalic acid in them! That oughta do it  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 19, 2014, 05:18:02 pm
I agree Ray. I have heard in my area that the bee inspectors ask what kind of treatment is used for mites, if the beeks say OA, the inspectors say "Okay"   :)

just keep a couple of maqs around.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 19, 2014, 05:20:30 pm
What are we suppose to do. Let our bees die because its not approve for beekeeping.

Again, I am not saying don't use it, and by no means let your bees die. When I get to the point where the choice is live bees or honey crop, I will forgo the honey crop. What I am saying is if you sell honey, and use a non-approved product in your hive, and someone gets sick or complains......................
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 19, 2014, 06:22:35 pm
Hey Scott.
It does seem rather farcical, but using something that is "not approved", whether it works or not, is dangerous or not, legal to use, etc etc. can make a lawyer somewhere rich if anything comes up.

   Please dont misunderstand PerryMeister..  I was speaking of people who claim it is so terribly dangerous to use OA in Vapor form..     As I understand, there is a movement to get it approved in the US, and it will inevitably go through, but is being slowed down as much as possible by those who wish to keep selling their dumbed down nerve gas and other nastyness to beekeepers.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 19, 2014, 06:34:06 pm
I would probably do the same as ya'll (did I say that right?) if I was down there and in your shoes.  ;D
I just want to make sure folks make informed choices and be aware there can always be consequences to our actions.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on December 19, 2014, 11:44:42 pm
What makes laugh, the worst stuff we can put in our hives is Fumagilin-B. In the US, Its approved, not allowed in Europe because they claim it causes birth defects in new born babies.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on December 20, 2014, 01:36:09 am
"What makes laugh, the worst stuff we can put in our hives is Fumagilin-B. In the US, Its approved, not allowed in Europe because they claim it causes birth defects in new born babies. "

sorry ray what? not sure what the europeans are doing, i just use the stuff to treat my bees with. let me ask you this.....so you are wearing a mask to treat your hives with oxalic acid and stand back away from the hives?  why?  and i think i read you have treated your bees 6 or more times in one season?  with supers off a short period of time?  then put them back on?  so you are using a product that is not approved?

what do you treat your bees with if you suspect or  have a nosema infection?  or are you going to let them suffer and die? actually, by the time one realizes the colony has or might have nosema, they probably are already weakened/and or died off.  fumagillin is approved.

you treat for mites, why wouldn't you treat for nosema?

fumagillin is really not the 'worst stuff' we can put in our hives. like lee said we use dangerous chemicals, and i might add all sorts of things on our bees. amazing they survive.

btw all lawyers are not always looking to get rich on our stupid mistakes.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 20, 2014, 01:42:52 am
I think he was pointing out the juxtaposition in treatments.  Most other countries have approved OA, and some of those countries have banned Fumagillin  While here, we can use the Fumagilin and the OA is not legal.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on December 20, 2014, 01:52:39 am
i get that scott......
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 20, 2014, 02:02:40 am
OK.....   :yes:    :o   (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femo%2Fsad%2Fupset-smiley-emoticon.gif&hash=502ff1b7e0efd41f905744a861c26ba52c40e80f) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on December 20, 2014, 10:47:22 am
LOL.......  :laugh:

Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on December 20, 2014, 11:40:07 am
I have a queston that's been gnawing at me for some time.  During the winter my garden is filled with Oxalis (Oxalis pes-caprae) flowers--they grow wild and in vast numbers.  Does anyone think that there might be a way to use them in the hives against varroa?  I've been thinking about possibly chopping them up on a blender and spreading the "soup" along the top of the frames.

I know the correct answer is "try it out yourself" and I just may do that.  But does anyone have any experience or original ideas on the subject?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 20, 2014, 11:57:21 am
Hello Ef  :)  Chopped oxalis may work....but its the consistent dose that is hard to get when you are preparing trials now, and later, for actual treatments.  That is the down side for dosing home remedies of all kinds.  Here in Texas, the resulting frass from such a mix would be a haven for small hive beetles and wax moth larva.  Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

P.S. As my mind continued to think about your question, I realized that in order to have mites exposed to the OA, the OA must be on the bees.  Hence, the sugar water dribble and the sublimation methods of delivery.  HTH    :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on December 20, 2014, 03:32:37 pm
Hi Ef  :D  My question is... if you place the minced up oxalic on top of the frames, what is it you are trying to accomplish?

Will they eat it? will they drag it out?


A caution: might this plant be toxic to bees? Have you ever seen the bees go to these plants?


Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 20, 2014, 03:40:34 pm
Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

That is very well said!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 20, 2014, 04:21:49 pm
Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

That is very well said!
I couldn't agree more.

And Scott...... :-[ Thanks, now I have to go find a dictionary and look up juxtaposition.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 20, 2014, 06:55:37 pm
LOL Perry..,.    I'd like to add my "check" to the good persisting one more day   :yes:

   As far as those plants go Ef..  is there any data on the concentration of oxalic in them?  I would think, if they are concentrated enough, the bees handling them, moving them out etc will rub them against a lot of bodies and hive, what remains, is if the concentration is strong enough to affect the mites.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on December 21, 2014, 02:02:23 am
I can't testify about the Oxalis plants' leaves posssible toxicity to bees but I know that their flowers  are welcomed by bees.  They are a nice source of pollen in the winter when they flower.  I also know that locally, children often pluck the flowers and suck/chew on the tart stems with no adverse reactions.
My thoughts are that the bee's contact with the plant parts, rich  in OA, might have a detrimental effect on the varroa.
As to my persisting "another day", thanks for your good intentions, but I hope to be around for a good many more---but I do take them, one at a time.  ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 21, 2014, 11:13:58 am
One at a time i how we all take them Ef.. we just dont have the adversity to fight past. Keep on keeping on!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on January 19, 2015, 08:09:55 pm
I was looking at another vaporizor, so I would have two, with the growing number of hives I have it will probably be necessary.. and found that the OxaVap site has links to some interesting research..

http://oxavap.com/information/

   Naturally, they want to show the use of OA in the best light, because they sell vaporizors, but this documentation looks untouched. most in PDF  form...
   Some good reading there..

    I actually was told about this post on another forum that I no longer go to, but went there to copy what was said by the OxaVap poster;


As promised in another thread, I contacted Ms. Meredith Laws of the EPA regarding the approval of OA for use in beehives. On behalf of Ms. Laws, Rubin Baris returned my call.
The USDA is acting as registrant of record (vs Monsanto or some other chemical company) for OA, so that the tremendous fees to get OA approved are waived.
OA will be approved in use in both syrup and vaporization
The EPA relied upon both Canadian and other sources for it's studies.
The approval is merely "months away." It is in the final stages of approval before going to the Federal Register.

Brushy Mountain will be the first to market OA. Now, what is not known is how BM will market OA be it in a syrup or for use in a vaporizer or both...

I'm guessing that other suppliers (Mann Lake, Dadant etc) will soon join in under the "me too" provision.

Here's the "unspoken" catch. While OA is available in many places, you can only use OA in accordance with its label. So if you used OA supplied by another source (and hence not having the "approved for use in beehives" label, you are in effect in violation. Brushy Mountain will have that wording on the OA label. 



   SO, in effect, you will need to order a tub of the oxalic acid that is LABELED for use in beehives from Brushy Mt, then you can keep refilling it...   That would be my work around for the label..  NOT that I think anyone would EVER check..   I have SEEN the state inspector several times at meetings etc, but he has never been by to say hi..
   If he ever does show up, he will likely never make that mistake again, after I talk and ask questions till his ears fall off...
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on January 19, 2015, 09:45:14 pm
I love my varrox vaporizer. I want to get one more before the price goes up. I also purchased 5 lbs of oxalic acid from E-bay for 16 dollars. My acid is 99 percent pure acid. Cant get it any better. These bee supply companies will probably sell you a little 6 oz bottle for an outrageous price with a label on it that’s approved for beekeeping.  I buy one, when its empty I fill it up with my acid because I have the bottle that says its approved for beekeeping.  Stock up now before the price goes up.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on January 19, 2015, 09:55:22 pm
SO, in effect, you will need to order a tub of the oxalic acid that is LABELED for use in beehives from Brushy Mt, then you can keep refilling it...   That would be my work around for the label..  NOT that I think anyone would EVER check..   I have SEEN the state inspector several times at meetings etc, but he has never been by to say hi..
   If he ever does show up, he will likely never make that mistake again, after I talk and ask questions till his ears fall off...

Of course, if the inspector DID show up, you could say you were treating the inside woodwork with the OA, and that any incidental exposure to bees was unintentional.

 O:-)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on January 19, 2015, 11:51:41 pm

   When I mentioned to Andy at a meeting that I bleached my frames he laughed. He was the one that told me that it was unlikely that OA would ever get approved because of the MONEY it cost to BE approved, and because of the money it would cost the industry if it was.
   I have to agree.  The Chem companies and package producers ARE making a killing..   Makes me a little sad I did not get into selling nucs sooner, but I will take consolation in the fact I make an honest living from people I am not deceiving or cheating.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Yankee11 on January 20, 2015, 12:44:56 am
While we are on the subject.

I treated all my hives between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I doubt any brood was in the hives.

Do you guys treat in the spring. OAV.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on January 20, 2015, 01:56:49 am
Yup, I will, if not before. I use sticky boards under all my hives and check them every two weeks. When there is 10 mites on the sticky board, that means there are between 500 - 1000 inside the colony. So far my personal calculations never fail with this method. My records told me that I treated last January, and the one hive I had had almost 2,000 mite kill.

So Yah, it seems that my hives go about 3-4 months then I have to treat. If I treat 1 I'll treat all 3. Especially knowing that soon drones will be visiting all the hives soon.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on January 20, 2015, 08:33:30 am
Last year I treated my hives 8 times with OAV. If I can get a nice day in march with temp around 50 degrees. All my hives get treated. If I’m not happy with my mite drop I continue to treat till I see nothing on the sticky board. I wont put my supers on till I’m done treating. Around June I treat again. Its more work because I have to take my supers off for 4 hours before I put them back on. My problem I have a commercial beek in the area that keeps over 200 hives. He wont treat  his hives for mites but I know my bees go over to his hives and rob them out and bring back the crap from his hives.  >:(
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on January 20, 2015, 02:47:20 pm
Exactly Ray! And it's a good thing for you to know the practices of other beeks around you.

I just can't stand the idea of mites making holes in my bees! Won't have it!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Yankee11 on January 20, 2015, 06:11:04 pm
Looks like i'll be charging the ole marine battery in a couple weeks. Time to bleach some woodenware.  ;)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on January 20, 2015, 07:19:15 pm
hehe, yep.. I tend to treat later, because its warmer.. (more comfortable for me) April usually.  They have not had a lot of brood all winter, so mite population should be low, if I treated correctly in the fall..
   Once the brood starts ramping up, so does the mite population. If you treat in spring, and only have a few mites left to contend with, by August you will have a BOOMING mite population..  Even if you killed ALL the mites in your hive.. the visiting drones would stop in and drop off more...
  The best thing to do is treat, and keep an eye on them in case they need treated again before the "planned" treatment.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on February 07, 2015, 09:04:39 am
Hide and seek..................

USDA applies for Oxalic Acid registration as a Varroa control

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/search?conditions%5Bterm%5D=registration+applications&commit=Go

   I cant find it among all the documents, maybe someone else will have better luck?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on February 07, 2015, 10:37:40 am
I found this, but I can't find the language in the federal register itself:

http://wasba.org/oxalic-acid-registration-comments-wanted-by-epa/
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on February 07, 2015, 12:18:48 pm
I  found this link:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-02-04/pdf/2015-02209.pdf.

look at item 5, on the bottom of the first column of page 6086.

If I understand the legalese gobblydygook language, It's the USDA that is requesting the approval of Oxalic Acid for use against varroa.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on February 07, 2015, 05:22:25 pm
Thats it Ef!!!

    6086
Federal Register
/ Vol. 80, No. 23 / Wednesday, February 4, 2015 / Notices
currently registered pesticide products.
Pursuant to the provisions of FIFRA
section 3(c)(4) (7 U.S.C. 136a(c)(4)), EPA
is hereby providing notice of receipt and
opportunity to comment on these
applications. Notice of receipt of these
applications does not imply a decision
by the Agency on these applications.
1. File Symbol: 70051–RRI. Docket ID
number: EPA–HQ–OPP–2015–0007.
Applicant: Certis USA L.L.C., 9145
Guilford Rd., Suite 175, Columbia, MD
21046. Product name: BmJ TGAI. Active
ingredient: Fungicide and
Bacillus
mycoides
isolate J at 100%. Proposed
classification/Use: Manufacturing use.
Contact: BPPD.
2. File Symbol: 70051–RRO. Docket
ID number: EPA–HQ–OPP–2015–0007.
Applicant: Certis USA L.L.C., 9145
Guilford Rd., Suite 175, Columbia, MD
21046. Product name: BmJ WG. Active
ingredient: Fungicide that also claims to
reduce plant viral infections and
Bacillus mycoides
isolate J at 40.0%.
Proposed classification/Use: Almonds,
citrus, cole crops, cucurbits, fruiting
vegetables, grapes, legumes, lettuce,
pecans, pome fruits, potatoes, spinach,
and sugarbeets. Contact: BPPD.
3. File Symbol: 88031–EE. Docket ID
number: EPA–HQ–OPP–2015–0023.
Applicant: CP Bio, Inc., 4802 Murrieta
St., Chino, CA 91710. Product name:
Choline Chloride Technical. Active
ingredient: Biochemical Plant Growth
Regulator and Choline Chloride (Acetyl
Choline) at 98%. Proposed
classification/Use: Manufacturing Use
Product to be Formulated into Plant
Growth Regulator End Use Products.
Contact: BPPD.
4. File Symbol: 88031–EG. Docket ID
number: EPA–HQ–OPP–2015–0023.
Applicant: CP Bio, Inc., 4802 Murrieta
St., Chino, CA 91710. Product name:
Choline Chloride 20% SP. Active
ingredient: Biochemical Plant Growth
Regulator and Choline Chloride (Acetyl
Choline) at 20%. Proposed
classification/Use: Plant Growth
Regulator for Amelioration of Growth
Reduction Caused by Sodic Soils.
Contact: BPPD.
5. File Symbol: 91266–R. Docket ID
number: EPA–HQ–OPP–2015–0043.
Applicant: United States Department of
Agriculture, 10300 Baltimore Ave., Bld.
306 BARC–EAST, Beltsville, Maryland
20705. Product name: Oxalic Acid
Dihydrate. Active ingredient: Oxalic
Acid Dihydrate at 100%. Proposed
classification/Use: Insecticide/in-hive
use to control Varroa mites.

  yes, it is the USDA that has filed for approval, so all of the nasty expenses associated with that approval are waived..
     "as I understand it"      I cant even begin to read some of that stuff without getting a headache..
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on March 21, 2015, 04:23:42 pm
Most important in my opinion is the bottom line: the EPA has approved the use of Oxalic Acid in bee hives for the control of Varroa mites.  Any one who wants to read a selection of the many reports on this approval can "Google" under EPA Oxalic Acid Varroa
It may have taken a while, even too long a while, but the approval is there. 

Now the question is:  "How will this affect the price of OA which was relatively cheap until now?"
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on May 29, 2015, 09:00:55 pm
From The Brushy mountain web site:

We have mentioned that Oxalic Acid has been approved by the EPA; however for it to be used legally it must be registered in the individual states and have the appropriate label. It has been a process but we are working to have all states approved.

Currently North Caroloina and Pennsylvania are registered and it is available at both location. We are continuing to work with other states and expect several to be approved in the coming weeks. Later than we wanted. We will keep the information updated on our website to know where it can be sold.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 07, 2015, 08:53:08 am
Several more states are now approved. Brushy mountain has them listed, and will add the states as they approve the use of Oxalic Acid;

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Oxalic-Acid/productinfo/727/
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on August 07, 2015, 09:39:11 am
I removed my honey from four of my seven hives and want to start with the oxalic acid treatment on those four.
Unfortunately, we've been suffering through a real "Texas sized" heat wave for the past few days (over 37o C, over 100o F).  I'm waitng for the temp to drop to a steady below 250C, 77oF) to give my first treatment.  It looks like that won't be till late next week.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on August 07, 2015, 12:22:24 pm
What’s so special about brushymountain oxalic acid? I can buy it on ebay for less. 5lbs for 15 dollars. Bee clubs could buy a 50lb bag for 50 dollars and divided it up equally among its members who want to use it. 35 grm for 5.50 is a lot of money for the same stuff you can buy on ebay or amazon.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 07, 2015, 12:28:01 pm
Just one of the stipulations.. it has to be "approved" Oxalic to use in beehives...
   Who has the rights to approve it? What criteria must it meet to be approved?
   I can only assume it is just a good quality OA...
   I am thinking if we start filling baggies and stick labels on them that say Approved for use in beehives  we can sell a bunch of it...   I am sure we can get a consensus of votes that say we all approve right?   ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on August 07, 2015, 12:34:43 pm
my acid is 99 percent pure oxalic acid, I cant get it any better.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: dave on August 07, 2015, 04:50:38 pm
I know this is a dumb question for many, but before I buy a battery charger....how do you hook up the battery cables from the charger to the battery cables of the vaporizer.  Do you just connect the red to red and black to black or is there a different method.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on August 07, 2015, 05:38:31 pm
Hook up the black clip to the negative side of battery and red to positive side. Most batteries will have a red cap on the positive side with a plus mark on battery.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 07, 2015, 07:39:53 pm
Does anyone here apply OA with the dribble method?  I would like to try it, but I am not messing with a car battery, etc.  I haven't done any mite checks yet, but I have some second year colonies that are likely candidates for treatment.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 07, 2015, 08:23:24 pm

   A battery will do a Hive or three, it works better to leave the battery in the truck and hook it up that way, truck idling. I actually use a good set of jumper cables to make the leads longer.
   Yes, red wire to red wire..  though on most vaporizers I do not think it matters which way they are hooked?  Read the instructions before taking my word for it...   I do know that some "idiot" hooked MY varox vaporizer up backwards, and didnt realize it until he was finished treating hives..  still works fine....
   Dribble method...

   Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology says:

“You can treat your colonies with a liquid mixture of OA and sugar but be careful. The liquid acid shortens the life of the bees. There is no problem during summer because the bee’s life not longer than approximately 6 weeks. The problem starts with winter bees–do not treat your winter bees more than one time with liquid OA. When using liquid OA bees get wet and have to clean each other. The result is, the acid ends up in their stomach and during winter without a cleaning flight it shortens the life of the bees. Two treatments on winter bees might kill the colony. Liquid OA is a slow killer and bees will probably die after a few weeks or month instead reaching the next season.”

   I stick with the vapor.. dont like cutting so many lives short!   :-[
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Ray4852 on August 08, 2015, 06:57:42 am
I use a deep cycle marine battery. I probably could treat 30 hives with this battery before I lose 50 percent charge. If you use your vehicle, Try not to make a mistake hooking up your battery connections because you could damage your vaporizer and do damage to the electronics in your vehicle. The varrox has  polarity protection. I don’t know if the other vaporizers do. You can protect your vaporizer by putting in an inline fuse in the positive side to protect it. If you make a mistake the fuse will blow. Anybody can hook up a battery the wrong way. I have done it already. Protect your eyes by warring safety glasses. A battery can leak hydrogen gas. If you hook up wrong. The batter could explode in your face by the strong arc across the terminals.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on August 08, 2015, 10:51:19 am
Since we are talking about power sources for your oxalic acid vaporizer, I'll offer my two cents.  I use one of THESE (http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-jump-start-and-power-supply-38391.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMTc1MDM3NzciLCJza3UiOiIzODM5MSIsImlzIjoiMzkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiNzgzIn0%3D%0D%0A) 12V power supplies.  It will vaporize two grams of OA in less than two minutes.  My friends say they recharged it after about ten treatments...Just plug it in for a couple hours and you are good to go!

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.cc%2Fs5hpr35jr%2Fimage_23676.jpg&hash=86754121ed6265a81447cfe2b5fd64c73faf60e7) (http://postimg.cc/image/s5hpr35jr/)

On sale now for $40.  It is also a multitasker in the garage. I got the 12V adaptor from Radio Shack and use it with a 15 AMP fuse.

HTH  :-)

P.S. While I'm treatment free at heart (using VSH queens), I do treat swarms of unknown origin, cut-out bees and any colony I have that has more than 3% on a mite count.  Sometimes I'll use hopguard instead.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on August 08, 2015, 02:56:11 pm
..... before I buy a battery charger....how do you hook up the battery cables from the charger to the battery cables of the vaporizer.  Do you just connect the red to red and black to black or is there a different method.

Red, by agreement, stands for the positive terminal, black for the negative.  In most electrical applications the polarity is important---however, the Oxalic Acid vaporizers are an exception.  Either way you connect the contacts, they produce the heat needed for vaporization (no motor nor fancy electronics are involved here that would be affected by the "direction" of the current).  This explains why Lazybkprs vaporizer still works, in spite of supposedly being connected "incorrrectly". 
The instructions that came with my  vaporizer, (which comes with red and black marked terminals), still specifically states that the direction of the connections is totally unimportant.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: jb63 on August 12, 2015, 12:42:11 am
Last spring I vaporized O.A., but didn't treat in the fall.I had good honey production but bad winter loss.This year I didn't treat in the spring and it's a bad honey year but I'm going to vape. them in the fall.Maybe October. 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: apisbees on August 12, 2015, 02:04:25 am
The issue I have with waiting till Oct to do the fall treatment is that the mites will have been feeding on the fall bees that have hatched. leaving the bees with weakened immune systems and viruses. The most important thing I have learned in keeping bees with the mite is to have the healthiest bees that you can going into winter. This means treating the hives between the 15th  to 20th of August before the brood that will emerge starting at the first of September has been caped over with mites inside feeding on the winter bee larva.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 12, 2015, 08:35:45 am
Since we are talking about power sources for your oxalic acid vaporizer, I'll offer my two cents.  I use one of THESE (http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-jump-start-and-power-supply-38391.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMTc1MDM3NzciLCJza3UiOiIzODM5MSIsImlzIjoiMzkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiNzgzIn0%3D%0D%0A) 12V power supplies.  It will vaporize two grams of OA in less than two minutes.  My friends say they recharged it after about ten treatments...Just plug it in for a couple hours and you are good to go!

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.cc%2Fs5hpr35jr%2Fimage_23676.jpg&hash=86754121ed6265a81447cfe2b5fd64c73faf60e7) (http://postimg.cc/image/s5hpr35jr/)

On sale now for $40.  It is also a multitasker in the garage. I got the 12V adaptor from Radio Shack and use it with a 15 AMP fuse.

HTH  :-)

P.S. While I'm treatment free at heart (using VSH queens), I do treat swarms of unknown origin, cut-out bees and any colony I have that has more than 3% on a mite count.  Sometimes I'll use hopguard instead.

OK Lee.  I took the plunge and headed over to the new Harbor Freight in my neighborhood.  I bought the jump start power supply you posted.  I am going to give this a try.  Now, to get the rest of the equipment and I will be ready for fall mite treatments.
Last week I bought a power washer from Harbor Freight and it works like a charm.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on August 12, 2015, 12:37:04 pm
Good Luck bakersdozen!  :-)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on August 14, 2015, 09:29:31 pm
Not about beekeeping, but I ran across this quote from Harpo Marx this evening and thought it relative to the thread.   8)

Quote
[on accommodation, while touring] Cheap hotels in the South and Southwest were apparently set up as bug sanctuaries by some Audubon Society for Insects. Fleas, ticks, bedbugs, cockroaches, beetles, scorpions and ants, having no enemies, attacked with fearless abandon. They had the run of the house and they knew it. After a while you just let them bite. Fighting back was useless. For every bug you squashed, a whole fresh, bloodthirsty platoon would march out of the woodwork. In one hotel hotel the ants were so bad that each bed was set on four pots of oxalic acid.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: capt44 on August 20, 2015, 11:23:34 pm
Just to let ya'll know they have approved Oxalic Acid in Arkansas now.
I am going to start treating the 1st week in September using the vaporizor method.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: capt44 on September 18, 2015, 09:34:36 am
I have all my hives treated with oxalic acid using the vaporizer.
I am going to treat again on September 22nd.
The bees never get upset on the treating.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on September 18, 2015, 09:40:18 pm
Good deal! The only reason mine get a little upset is because the entrance is blocked for a bit. When I remove the rag all returns to normal.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Gypsi on October 16, 2015, 09:59:59 am

"   Thats the beauty of being a beekeeper, you do it your way!"

"   I am VERY MUCH WITH Mrs. River (Riverbee) in her philosophy of dont treat if it is not needed. I feel that OAV gives me that freedom. The freedom to wait and watch, and yet, be ready to FIX a problem in mere moments.
  I believe that the bees will not build, or show resistances if there is nothing to resist. The only way we will know if we are succeeding in creating bees that can co exist with Varroa, is if we WAIT, and force them to fight back..  Those who cannot fight back get treated, and given a different queen, raised from a colony that IS at the very least TRYING to fight back..."

"   Do you really think it takes longer than treating with any other method? Is 2.5 minutes per hive longer than it takes to break down the hive?
    In order to treat with hopguard, i have to open the hives. I have to get to the lower brood box, which, for me means removing the two upper boxes. Then i can place the strips in as the instructions require."

My VSH bees, at least one hive of them, aren't very VSH anymore, this is a 4th generation queen. Mites showed in drone brood rather than on my sticky.  My battery is too small (easier to carry) and the first battery was also too old (4 years) but after a treatment a morning I re-start the series next week. l am pleased with the mite drop on the hive I didn't actually see any problem with, and will check this morning to see if the Beeweavers hive really needed treated, it got it just because yesterday.

The big difference with the OA, besides not having to go deeply into hives to place strips, is not having to remember to go back into hives to REMOVE strips.  Plus I like the not building up in the wax, not a true insecticide.  The hive I treated on Tuesday looks great, I don't think I lost a bee or any brood. I am very happy with this. (they are a very productive survivor swarm hive I picked up the swarm in March)

The 4th generation hive got fairly upset about being treated but the battery died on them the evening before then I was back in with a new battery Wednesday morning and didn't get the entrance super well blocked. Never thought of a rag, good thought for last week, they were pushing past my tape.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on October 18, 2015, 12:23:43 pm
LazyBkpr posted this link in another thread ("Things I've noticed") and those interested  in seeing how to do an Oxalic Acid treatment might not spot it there so I've placed it here.  Remember, after the first video plays, youtube gives us links to more on the same topic, so you can get additional how-to info.
Thanks go to Lazy!

https://youtu.be/ClobU68Ekmo
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Gypsi on October 19, 2015, 10:42:18 am
thank you for the video efmesch
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Papakeith on October 20, 2015, 08:15:01 am
Thanks for this discussion.  Having all of this material in one place is invaluable.
I may have missed it, but what are the best options out there for vaporizers?  Where to get them, etc?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 20, 2015, 08:37:38 am

   http://oxavap.com/
   http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html

   I also believe that Don (The Fat Bee man) sells one that he has made by someone near him.


   I have the Varrox. At the time I ordered mine, it had rave reviews, and many had been using it for six or seven years by that point with no issues.  I have been using mine two or three years, and have treated with it over 500 times, and it continues to work as well as when it was new.
   Reading about the Heilizer (sp) It seems that people are also quite happy with it as well.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Papakeith on October 20, 2015, 11:11:28 am
a few months ago I started down the path of building my own vaporizer. I purchased a heating element and started machining the pan for the vaporization process.  Along the way, I decided that I should just purchase one and be done with it. 
Many of the offerings look like they were put together in a hobbyists garage. Not that they are bad products, they just don't look like a finished product. Not the Varrox though.The varrox looks like a more refined product.  It certainly seems to have stood the test of time so far.  My only question is that I wonder if the fit and finish is worth the extra 40$ 
I'll let you all know :) 

Thanks lazy for this resource.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bee Commander on November 01, 2015, 10:34:17 pm
I use the Heilyser. I am only in my second season and this spring tested my hives finding a high mite load in some of them. After tons of research I went with OAV. After reading about all the disclaimers on Apivar, MAQs etc., OAV seemed like the perfect solution, kinda like mite treatment for dummies. It was. It's so simple, not hard on the bees. After 4 rounds in April 5-7 days apart, hives that were lackluster in performance literally exploded. One of my hives had a mite count of 12%... was in a downward spiral. After treatment, it was amazing to see the difference.

Yes I have had a whiff of the stuff. Brutal. I now wear a respirator. Not worth taking chances. I have heard that OAV may be effective on tracheal mites. After having a whiff of it I can believe it. Has anyone else heard that?

Another question I had was has anyone noticed when using OAV any detrimental effects on open brood. I have read that OAV can be fatal to open brood, but have not experienced that myself.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on November 02, 2015, 12:14:00 am
Papakeith ~ "a few months ago I started down the path of building my own vaporizer. I purchased a heating element and started machining the pan for the vaporization process.  Along the way, I decided that I should just purchase one and be done with it. 
Many of the offerings look like they were put together in a hobbyists garage. Not that they are bad products, they just don't look like a finished product. Not the Varrox though.The varrox looks like a more refined product.  It certainly seems to have stood the test of time so far.  My only question is that I wonder if the fit and finish is worth the extra 40$ 

   Hey Keith  :)  I've been using a Heilyser for two seasons now. It's fast, effective, I know it won't kill any of my bees or the queen. I'm not afraid of it. I did a lot of researsh and read a lot of reviews on OAV, sold me! More than once the reviews said "The Varrox is the cadillac, but the Heilyser is the Honda. Both good vehicles, and both will get you to the same place effectively." I find that to be true.



   
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Mikey N.C. on November 02, 2015, 09:12:44 am
What is the bleaching boxes, frames .haven't seen any information about, is it just a way to use OA in the states where it's not legal ? ?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on November 02, 2015, 09:32:37 am
What is the bleaching boxes, frames .haven't seen any information about, is it just a way to use OA in the states where it's not legal ? ?

 :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Mikey N.C. on November 02, 2015, 09:41:37 am
I see  8) thanks
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: neillsayers on November 02, 2015, 12:51:08 pm
 Jen said:               
Hey Keith  :)  I've been using a Heilyser for two seasons now. It's fast, effective, I know it won't kill any of my bees or the queen. I'm not afraid of it. I did a lot of researsh and read a lot of reviews on OAV, sold me! More than once the reviews said "The Varrox is the cadillac, but the Heilyser is the Honda. Both good vehicles, and both will get you to the same place effectively." I find that to be true.



Jen, who markets this product?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on November 02, 2015, 01:25:16 pm
I purchased mine from the website. Once in a while you can find them used, but I didn't want to take chances on potential failure of the vaporizer. And consider too, that each treatment is just pennys.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html
 
Also Neil, make sure you have 99% Oxalic Acid. Products like wood bleach have additives in it. Amazon.com is where I bought my OA.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: neillsayers on November 02, 2015, 10:53:25 pm
Thanks Jen,

I have the OA in my amazon wishlist and was percolating on building my own but I want to look at the one you mentioned.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on November 02, 2015, 11:41:28 pm

   I have never had any issues with using OAV even before it was approved here in Iowa, but fo those who wish to toe the line, using an unapproved product in hives used for commercial honey or bee/nuc production might cause issues. So those folks dont use OA for mites, they use it to bleach their frames a couple times a year! There is nothing illegal about that, since it IS approved for use as a wood bleach.  8)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on November 24, 2015, 03:12:25 am
Well, a vaporizer is on my Christmas list.  I treated this fall using the oxalic acid drip method.  I would say that it was not effective.  One colony has signs of deformed wing virus and my niece, with her good eye site, spotted mites on those bees.  I have fingers crossed that they will make it through to spring and I can do a spring treatment. 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on November 24, 2015, 06:02:11 am
Yesterday I gave a second OA vapor treatment to my hives.  I just came in from checking the floors of three (out of 7) hives.  Two were clean, one had a lot of fallen mites.  I think I'll give nother treatment next wek and hopefully go into the winter (which here is pretty mild) with clean hives.  Worthy of mentioning is that in two of the hivess I observed pseudoscorpions walking around--so I guess they are not affected by the OA.  That makes for another reason to use the OA vapor treatment.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: lazy shooter on November 24, 2015, 08:10:09 am
I am going to start my OA treatments later in this week, if it is not raining.  We are supposed to have rain from Thursday through Friday.  I hope that is the case.  I read somewhere that some researcher had stated that he used OA three weeks in a row on some of his hive and only once of some of his hives.  The hives that had only one treatment survived as well as the hives that were treated three times.  If I get a good burn and see some good response to the vapor covering the entire hive body, I may treat only once.  I don't like to expose my bees to more chemicals than necessary.  And, remember my handle is "lazy."
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on November 24, 2015, 10:24:17 am
The less covered brood the more effective it is
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 01, 2015, 01:57:11 pm
I succumbed to the Cyber Monday specials and got an OA Vaporizer and OA kit from Brushy Mountain with free shipping.  Although TN is on the list of legal states, it wouldn't let me order the OA online.  I had to call in my order.  The lady was very friendly and helpful, but I told her they may be losing a lot of sales because of the computer glitch.  But I am very anxious to try my new equipment.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: tedh on December 01, 2015, 03:55:59 pm
Slow, I think you will be glad you got one!   Ted
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 03, 2015, 12:58:48 pm
I succumbed to the Cyber Monday specials and got an OA Vaporizer and OA kit from Brushy Mountain with free shipping.  Although TN is on the list of legal states, it wouldn't let me order the OA online.  I had to call in my order.  The lady was very friendly and helpful, but I told her they may be losing a lot of sales because of the computer glitch.  But I am very anxious to try my new equipment.

The package came a little while ago.  I did not order special fast shipping.  I am wondering if anyone else has this kind?  I probably should have done more research on it, but I was surprised at the box and having two red leads.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2F7zmv0uwgd%2Fall_small.jpg&hash=384f4c323129bf2a72b5dd293f5f0793f9e2322e) (http://postimg.cc/image/7zmv0uwgd/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fjyyd86219%2Fbox_1_small.jpg&hash=58e48b564a8c8f232abece43c8542adf3398f7bf) (http://postimg.cc/image/jyyd86219/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fssp9p9ozx%2Fbox_2_small.jpg&hash=68d57abf62cbf984ed4460f70cac14a3f6c8f2b8) (http://postimg.cc/image/ssp9p9ozx/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Ffr3kzf0lp%2Ftwo_reds_small.jpg&hash=15c8848090185e324a341e40ec8bf456737a2b01) (http://postimg.cc/image/fr3kzf0lp/)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 03, 2015, 02:33:25 pm
I'm guessing the country of origin is the Ukraine? They seem to sell a lot of beekeeping equipment. Don't worry about the 2 red leads, it doesn't matter. If it bugs you just wrap one of them with black electric tape. Mine came back after loaning it out missing one of the lead covers and I just used the tape.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: kebee on December 03, 2015, 04:43:05 pm
 I took mine that had stop working apart a couple days ago and cleaned it up, put back together and works lack a charm now. I don't think the set screw was making good contract in the pan part, what it check out to be. And now have to wait until it warms up enough to give them another treatment.

Ken
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Slowmodem on December 03, 2015, 07:31:40 pm
I'm guessing the country of origin is the Ukraine? They seem to sell a lot of beekeeping equipment. Don't worry about the 2 red leads, it doesn't matter. If it bugs you just wrap one of them with black electric tape. Mine came back after loaning it out missing one of the lead covers and I just used the tape.
You're right, of course.  Old habits are hard to break.

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on December 13, 2015, 12:44:02 pm
Be careful if you are using the battery in a machine. We use a utility golf cart and if I lay it on the metal it can short out. Lay it on a piece of cardboard and your good to go.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 13, 2015, 01:26:17 pm
I checked five hives this week...3 with no brood and two with 2 inch circle of brood & some eggs (no larva).  Its prime OAV time!  I'll treat next week when that brood has hatched.  :-)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on December 13, 2015, 01:30:07 pm
Better get it done quick, Lee. The 22nd is solstice. That's her signal to start laying again. It's only nine days to go.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on December 13, 2015, 02:50:48 pm
Better get it done quick, Lee. The 22nd is solstice. That's her signal to start laying again. It's only nine days to go.
Yes, the new eggs validate your observation.  I have at least six more days before anything gets capped.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Barbarian on December 13, 2015, 06:33:19 pm
There are a lot of replies on this topic. I've only checked out the last two pages.

There is a bit of a ho ha on a UK forum. New regulations are going to come into force. In order to buy OA a buyer will have to obtain a licence. This appears to relate to toxic and potentially explosive materials. Another thing to worry about.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 13, 2015, 09:46:06 pm
OA is too cheap as it stands... They have to make MONEY on it somehow...   I have about 10 lbs, and just ordered 20 lbs more. Store in cool DRY place....   LOT of hives to treat in the spring...
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: skydiver on December 23, 2015, 11:03:43 pm
OA Only one of the three application methods is good. The other two could do harm to bees.  http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537   
                                                                                                           
below copied from link above


Scientists determine how to control parasite without harming bees

A "phoretic" Varroa mite on the body of a honey bee. Photo courtesy of Alex Wild.

A honey bee hive being treated with oxalic acid via sublimation. The oxalic acid vapour is normally confined to the inside of the hive but is shown here for illustration.

Scientists at the University of Sussex have determined the best way of controlling Varroa mites – one of the biggest threats facing honey bees – without harming the bees themselves.

A team from the Laboratory of Apiculture and Social Insects (LASI) has determined the best dose and method for treating hives with oxalic acid, a naturally occurring chemical already being used by beekeepers to control Varroa.

The study, published today (Thursday 17 December 2015) in the Journal of Apicultural Research, shows that two of the three methods used by beekeepers to apply the chemical cause harm to bee colonies, resulting in reduced winter survival.

But one method – sublimation, by which the chemical is vapourised inside the hive using an electrically heated tool – has no negative effect on the bees. In fact, colonies treated in this way had 20% more bees four months later than untreated colonies.

It is also the easiest to use, the deadliest to the mites - killing 97% with one application - and is effective at lower doses than the other methods.

What’s more, it only costs a few pence to treat each hive.

Professor Francis Ratnieks, head of LASI, says that beekeepers should cease using the other two methods ("trickling" and "spraying", in which a solution of oxalic acid is used) as they are harmful to the bees and less effective at killing Varroa.

Professor Ratnieks says: “It is almost too good to be true that sublimation, the best method for killing Varroa with oxalic acid, also has no harmful effects on the bees, and is the quickest to apply.

“Beekeepers should only use the sublimation method. If they apply oxalic acid in this way, they can be confident that it will kill most of the mites and will not harm the bees.”

Varroa mites harm honey bees directly and also spread virus diseases that kill colonies.

Controlling Varroa was at first simple, as the product Apistan could be used. Apistan contains a synthetic chemical that kills 99% of the Varroa but is not harmful to the bees. However, Varroa have now evolved resistance to the active ingredient.

Previous research has shown that oxalic acid is able to kill Varroa but nobody had compared different doses and application methods, nor quantified the proportion of Varroa killed.

LASI’s research, which was funded by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation and Rowse Honey Ltd,  filled these important gaps.

Notes for editors

For further information, please contact Francis Ratnieks at +44 (0) 7766270434 or F.Ratnieks@Sussex.ac.uk

University of Sussex Media Relations contacts: James Hakner (01273 877966) and Jacqui Bealing (01273 877437) – press@sussex.ac.uk

‘Towards integrated control of varroa: comparing application methods and doses of oxalic acid on the mortality of phoretic Varroa destructor mites and their honey bee hosts’ by Hasan Al Toufailia, Luciano Scandian and Francis Ratnieks is available at:- http://www.tandfonline.com/action/showAxaArticles?journalCode=tjar20

About the research

The study used 110 bee hives in Sussex, UK, in the winter of 2012/3 and another 90 in winter 2013/4.

The hives were all without brood, as occurs naturally in winter. Broodlessness is important. Varroa are found in two locations in a hive: 1) In sealed brood cells (i.e., a cell with a pupal bee), where the female mites lay their eggs and where the young mites develop by feeding on the blood of the pupa; 2) Phoretic: clinging to the body of adult worker bees. Oxalic acid only kills Varroa in position 2.

Three application methods already being used by beekeepers were compared: 1) sublimation, in which crystals of oxalic acid are vaporized using a special heated tool inserted into the hive entrance; 2) trickling, in which the lid of the hive is removed and a solution of oxalic acid is poured onto the bees; 3) spraying, as in trickling, except the frames of bees are sprayed with the solution.

Three doses were used, 1.125, 2.25 and 4.5 grams per hive.

The proportion of Varroa killed was determined by extracting mites from a sample of approximately 300 worker bees, taken immediately before treatment and again 2 weeks later. The mites are extracted with a jet of water and counted. If the first sample had 25 mites per 100 bees and the second 1 mite per 100 bees, then the mortality is 24/25 or 96%.

In addition, the project quantified possible harmful effects of oxalic acid, both in terms of the number of worker bees killed at the time of treatment and the mortality and strength of the colonies four months later in spring.

The project was led by PhD student Hasan Al Toufailia, whose PhD was funded by the University of Damascus, and Professor Ratnieks with the assistance of beekeeping technician Luciano Scandian.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on December 24, 2015, 07:29:12 am
Thanks Skydiver.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on December 24, 2015, 12:16:48 pm
I passed the link on to the bee advisors in Israel.  So far, they have run some experiments on using OA by way of solution trickled on the bees (encouraging results) but they have been hesitant about sublimation.  I'm trying to encourage them to move in this direction, but it might take a while before it catches on.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on December 24, 2015, 11:19:57 pm
Always thought it a bit strange that 50 different research teams had to ignore all previous tests and results and find out the same thing. I have been seeing the same results from similar tests for about three years, and I think Randy Olivers site even posts similar results from his own research and the research results from others from a couple years back..
   Of course, if they didnt run the tests themselves they would never get the funding to spend testing an already proven method of treating mites via OA Sublimation...  On the plus side, its another positive result with no (apparent at this time) negative results, at least with sublimation. The trickle or drench was also already proven to shorten the life of the bees..  Not necessarily enough to harm a strong spring/summer colony, but when used on winter bees it can have an impact on the lifespan of the winter bees. Shortening the life of a bee that needs to survive the winter isnt beneficial... shortening the life of a spring summer bee that has a life expectancy of six weeks or so isnt as noticeable... still, i choose not to cause additional harm if I can help it. Good post. Thanks Skydiver!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Gypsi on December 25, 2015, 08:23:54 pm
If OAV use dominates the market Apivar and a few other moneymakers will suffer
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Gypsi on December 26, 2015, 10:45:45 pm
It looks like the performance difference between 1.4 grams of Oxalic acid, and 2.8 grams is not great.  Since I am not sure exactly how much I got in the Varroa Cleaner today, but I am sure it was between those 2, at least I figure it will work and the bees will be ok. And that is good enough.  Sleep is coming. Soon...Thank you Iddee for finding me the thread.  Roof work then other work then bee work and getting my truck covered before the rain, I am all worn out
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on December 26, 2015, 10:59:06 pm
Sleep well.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Papakeith on March 04, 2016, 06:26:29 pm
I'm supposed to treat a fellow beekeeper's hive tomorrow.  The temps are supposed to be in the high 20s.  How cold is too cold for treating with the OA vaporization method? 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: kebee on March 04, 2016, 06:34:29 pm
 I would not do it at that temp., you could cause them to break cluster and freeze, and in cluster it would not get all the mites. I would wait until it was at least in the 40 or above mark.

Ken
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Gypsi on March 04, 2016, 10:08:35 pm
I heard 37 or 39 degrees Fahrenheit as the coldest to treat
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on March 05, 2016, 10:36:44 am
The "instructions"   Recommend vaporizing when the bees are clustered because there will be NO, or very little brood in with which the mites can hide/take refuge.
   Disturbing the cluster has been my concern as well. Recently I have had a chance to talk to a few prominent commercial beekeepers in my continuing endeavor to grow enough to actually make a small profit from bees...   The general consensus, as I understand it, is to treat late winter when the cluster is higher in the hive, and the heat from the vaporizor will not disturb that cluster.
   I have NOT tested this. I treat when its warmer JUST because I dont want to go out in the cold... so for what its worth....
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Papakeith on March 16, 2016, 04:18:57 pm
I ended up waiting for Warmer weather.  I didn't want to take the chance especially with someone else's bees.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 13, 2016, 07:11:24 pm
Bringing back the discussion for a bit....

   I have been asked half a dozen times, what makes the OA Brushy mountain Sells "LEGAL" for use in hives?   
   I have EMailed them, but, Have not gotten a response, which is unlike them.
   Is the stuff they sell purer than 99.6%?
  They sell it in the bottle and bag, a bag is 175 Grams for $18.00........

   There is 453.5 grams in a pound, so that =... ?   Less than a third of a pound?  175 goes into 453.5  about 2.6 times....   For $3.20 a full pound you can buy the 99.6% pure OA. On occasion you can find it at 99.8% pure for a few cents more a pound...
   Does anyone HAVE the bag or bottle from Brushy Mountain? What does it say the purity is?
   I have thought about this myself a few times, and now that I am being asked, I would like to be able to answer with some semblance of intelligence..

   WHO, says the OA Brushy Mountain sells is legal and anything not labeled for hives is NOT legal?  EPA?  What is/are the criteria they use to test it?
   Thanks!!!
      Scott
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 13, 2016, 07:32:03 pm
Because Brushy spent the time and money to get it approved, they received an exclusive to sell it for beekeeping. It is no different from the hardware oa, but it is like buying booze, only certain licensed dealers can sell alcohol to drink.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 13, 2016, 07:47:13 pm
As I understand it Obama was the one who was pushing approval, Brushy Mountain was part of that?
    It is simply an acquired approval through some agency of government that decided that Brushy Mountain has the sole right to put a label on OA that anyone can get anywhere for a tenth the cost?
   Does than not smack a little of dishonesty and corruption to charge so much for something they only relabel? I am not against someone making a profit, that IS the idea after all, but making 44 dollars profit per pound of OA they simply relabel seems a bit overboard. Yes, they have bottles and bags, the cost of labels, and someone to weigh it, but still...
   I have always liked Brushy Mountain, they have good products and good service, Quick reply to questions etc..  but there is a bit of a sour taste developing...   
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on August 13, 2016, 09:54:33 pm
As I understand it Brushy Mtn folks retired and an investment group bought it. Not to say they aren't doing a good job with it. The oxalic acid thing is a touchy subject. They did pay a premium for the paperwork.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on August 14, 2016, 02:49:51 am
If you look at  Iddee's post #64 (on page 4) you'll see just how much Bushy Mountain did to get the approval of Oxalic Acid for hives. If you'll go back a few more posts, you can see more of the development of the approval.

I side with LazyBkpr in questioning the propriety of the excessive price rise for a cheap item just because they filled out a few forms and printed up labels.  Go and figure out the profit margin Bushy is making on printing out  labeling.
In this day and age of home computers and printers, each and every one of us can print up a nice label and stick it on their cheap OA.  O:-)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: kebee on August 14, 2016, 06:11:06 am
 Well I think Bushy is getting a little greeded for I have notice there are items I bought 4 years ago that have double in price and only some food that has done that.

Ken
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Some Day on August 14, 2016, 09:20:48 am
LazyB,

Why not just buy the 35 gram package for $5?  I doubt that it would ever actually run out of Oxalic Acid. 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 14, 2016, 10:55:54 am
If you look at  Iddee's post #64 (on page 4) you'll see just how much Bushy Mountain did to get the approval of Oxalic Acid for hives. If you'll go back a few more posts, you can see more of the development of the approval.


I don't understand why folks would think Brushy is doing something under handed.  They invested all the time and money to push the government to legalize an inexpensive product that no one else would touch.  There isn't much money to be made in a product that costs pennies per dose.  This is a natural product that many beekeepers, I know some myself, used even though it wasn't legal.  Beekeepers were encouraging law makers to legalize this.  If anything, we should be buying OA exclusively from Brushy.  They invested themselves in this product.  If one doesn't want to purchase from Brushy, then can go to the hardware store and buy the wood product that is packaged for a different use.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on August 14, 2016, 11:08:29 am
I don't intend to seem argumentative BUT:
1. It's my impression (possibly incorrect) that Brushy was not the only one working on this project. It seems to me that there was a lot of "grass roots" involvement of beekeepers and others involved in beekeeping that pushed the approval to the point where perhaps Brushy put in the final touches.
2. The effort they put into getting the OA approved was at best, a "one time" event.  The rise in price (quite exhorbitant in my opinion), is a long term event.  If the margin of profit they had put on OA was more modest, I would not have anything to say----every business has its right to make a profit.  But when profit comes from price qouging, it riles me.   In one of my earlier postss I questioned the possibility that after approval the price of OA might jump.

I suggest that you look back at posts #61, 62 and 63.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 14, 2016, 11:15:43 am
I did not see anything done by Brushy Mountain..  nothing, but that does not mean i was looking in the wrong place..    The waiting time and fees were waived because President Obama ASKED for this to be pushed through, Prsident Obama was the driving force behind getting this done. ("As far as I knew.") I did know there were a LOT of bee related industries also pushing HIM to push for them...

   NOW, I like Brushy Mountain, I always have. they have always responded to any question about any of their products quickly. Having said that...
  if they sold a POUND of OA for the same 18.00 price they would make $14.80 on that pound.. that in itself is quite a profit...  Having the market cornered, means they probably sell a LOT of it.....  Making over 40 per pound is just pushing it too far to be acceptable to me.

LazyB,

Why not just buy the 35 gram package for $5?  I doubt that it would ever actually run out of Oxalic Acid. 

   I agree with you,
    however, I will stick to my own original methods.. I do not treat for mites in ANY WAY.. I am treatment free, totally!!!!!   I do a couple times a year, go through my hives, and use OA to bleach the inside of my boxes and my frames.. it is a wood bleach correct?

 
   EF Posted the same time I did...   I agree with him!!!


Edit
   Perhaps it was not legal USE of OA that Brushy helped with but the approval for use in each state??   I do recall Brushy Mountain being a part of that...    However, what I still do not understand, is what makes it legal for use..  A label, with NO Purity or ingredients...   I may purchase it from them, JUST to have it tested.. if I do that, and the Purity is LESS than what I have been using.. the POO will hit the fan SO VERY hard....   Of course, if it turns out what they sell is of GREATER purity, then of course I will have to get on my knees and beg forgiveness..........
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 14, 2016, 12:23:45 pm

   A battery will do a Hive or three, it works better to leave the battery in the truck and hook it up that way, truck idling. I actually use a good set of jumper cables to make the leads longer.
   Yes, red wire to red wire..  though on most vaporizers I do not think it matters which way they are hooked?  Read the instructions before taking my word for it...   I do know that some "idiot" hooked MY varox vaporizer up backwards, and didnt realize it until he was finished treating hives..  still works fine....
   Dribble method...

   Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology says:

“You can treat your colonies with a liquid mixture of OA and sugar but be careful. The liquid acid shortens the life of the bees. There is no problem during summer because the bee’s life not longer than approximately 6 weeks. The problem starts with winter bees–do not treat your winter bees more than one time with liquid OA. When using liquid OA bees get wet and have to clean each other. The result is, the acid ends up in their stomach and during winter without a cleaning flight it shortens the life of the bees. Two treatments on winter bees might kill the colony. Liquid OA is a slow killer and bees will probably die after a few weeks or month instead reaching the next season.”

   I stick with the vapor.. dont like cutting so many lives short!   :-[

Is this how you bleach the inside of your boxes too?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 14, 2016, 01:26:37 pm

  I didnt like the "shorten the life of the bees" part, so i am undergoing tests to see if the VAPOR will also bleach the frames.. at this time in testing, i have come to no clear conclusions, so the testing will have to continue a little longer..................
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 14, 2016, 02:04:47 pm
Lazy, would you post a link or two to where Obama did this. After 8 years, it would do my heart good to see even one thing he did right.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 14, 2016, 07:38:13 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whats-all-the-obama-buzz-about-bees/2015/05/18/5ebd1580-fd6a-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150519-pollinators-health-honeybees-obama-animals-science/

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/22/politics/honey-bees-protection/

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/19/407955318/plan-bee-white-house-unveils-strategy-to-protect-pollinators

http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-task-force-lays-out-plan-to-save-honeybees-1432051769

  I do not recall the exact address I read about Obama pushing the Oxalic Acid approval... I read about it in more than one place at the time.  I was watching and reading everything I could while that was going on hoping for approval...  I just did not count on Brushy Mountain getting a corner on the market, and then taking advantage of it.
   Understand, that I stand AGAINST almost everything Obama stood for, but I do give him credit for setting up the task force to promote honey bee health.. whether  they will actually make a difference?? Who knows, but it was one of the few things I did agree with.

 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 14, 2016, 08:40:46 pm
""but I do give him credit for setting up the task force to promote honey bee health.. whether  they will actually make a difference""

Task force, yes. Oxalic acid, ??.. I seen nothing about it in any of the links, but I couldn't read the last one without joining, so don't know what it said.

Now, in 2 years, has the task force done anything other than spend 50 million dollars of our tax money? I'm thinking Brushy did some ACTUAL GOOD without spending near that.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 14, 2016, 11:28:32 pm
Do you have links that state what Brushy Mt did? What part they played in all of this? It is their part that I am interested in the most, and would like to KNOW!!
   
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 15, 2016, 06:29:49 am
Don Hopkins, our chief state bee inspector, told about it at a local club meeting. He can give you the details.

    (919) 218-3310
Don.Hopkins@ncagr.gov
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 15, 2016, 11:15:17 am
Thank you, will send him a mail!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 16, 2016, 04:01:17 pm

 So...   in speaking with Brushy Mountain, it appears that THEY are the ones who paid the STATE fees and worked with the EPA and USDA on the state levels, while Obama waved the "Federal" fees and pushed approval on the Federal level...
   It is all becoming clearer and more understandable.. Iddee was right again. You would think I would learn not to argue with him... Its just.. so much fun!
   I have asked for any documentation of their efforts that I can link to, so that when someone else asks me this question I can simply refer them.

   So in effect, Brushy Mountain has quite a lot of LOSS to make up for after their efforts and paying all of the fees on OUR behalf, to make OA Legal on the STATE level...  That I can accept, and WILL be buying OA from them now that I understand.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 16, 2016, 05:20:47 pm
You quit arguing with me and I'll fire you. This forum wouldn't have half the info on it that it has now if we didn't argue.

This thread is a good example.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 16, 2016, 05:59:33 pm
You quit arguing with me and I'll fire you. This forum wouldn't have half the info on it that it has now if we didn't argue.

This thread is a good example.

  Fire me!!??   I thought we were supposed to be talking about my annual RAISE!!   ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on August 17, 2016, 12:30:28 am
I think that doubling your present salary should be acceptable.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on August 17, 2016, 01:38:48 pm
Lazy, would you post a link or two to where Obama did this. After 8 years, it would do my heart good to see even one thing he did right.
Iddee, I believe it fits into The Obama's executive order (EO) in favor of saving all pollinators -I might have that impression after reading something relating to the fast track EPA paperwork.  I disagree with his policies, but acknowledge his EO paved the way for eliminating red tape, leading to the speedy approval of oxalic acid for varroa Tx.   Well done to all involved.  :)

P.S.  I won't be buying OA from Brushy Mountain, but I plan to find other ways to support them for their part in this big win for the bees.  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 17, 2016, 02:50:24 pm
I think that doubling your present salary should be acceptable.


   Thank you for the vote of support Ef!!!   Need all the help I can get!    ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: iddee on August 17, 2016, 03:55:35 pm
EF, I have doubled his salary every Jan. since I started the forum. I just can't make him happy.  :\'(
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on August 17, 2016, 05:50:40 pm
You can throw that salary out in the yard and the dog won't eat it :laugh:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 18, 2016, 03:07:36 am
LOL  MY dog might but he'd still be hungry.  ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Wandering Man on September 13, 2016, 08:38:12 am
How do you handle treating more than one hive with a hot vaporizer? Do you wait for it to cool down? Do you douse it in water to cool it? Do you just add a bit more OA it cram it into the next hive before it vaporizes the OA?

My vaporizer seems to stay hot for a really long time after I've unhooked it from the battery.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on September 13, 2016, 08:43:12 am
Have a bucket of water handy to submerge the end of your vaporizer in.  If you add more OA and keep going, you might breath some of it in and you won't know exactly how much the bees received.  You could cook some of your bees too!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Nugget Shooter on September 13, 2016, 10:02:40 am
Have a bucket of water handy to submerge the end of your vaporizer in.  If you add more OA and keep going, you might breath some of it in and you won't know exactly how much the bees received.  You could cook some of your bees too!

I do the same, clean and cool before each use....
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on September 13, 2016, 11:33:05 am
We have made trouble dipping in water. Seems if yours uses a glow plug the quick cooling may let moisture past the threads and into the tip end. When you put power back on the glow plug ruptures. We have some issues with stainless steel glow plug and aluminum housing. Need to loosen and retighten for good connection now and then.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Nugget Shooter on September 14, 2016, 10:37:13 am
Good tip.....
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on September 28, 2016, 09:19:55 pm
Yep, I run two Varrox Vaporizors from my cart. 6 hp engine running a 1 wire alternator and a deep cycle battery. I have two buckets int eh cart, one to carry the OA, the vaporizors etc, and the other is for water. Pull the vaporizor out, dip, fill and slide into the next hive..
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on September 29, 2016, 10:28:09 pm
I found out the hard way not to use your hive tool to flatten your oxalic acid. Forgot to wash it and it took the chrome off.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Papakeith on September 29, 2016, 10:52:01 pm
I'm running one Vaporizer.  the varrox unit suggest quenching the tool in between uses in it's instructions. 
I haven't quite made it to the two vaporizer stage yet, but I'm thinking about it.  It would certainly speed up the process.

I do wonder though.  What is the difference between 1,7,21 treatment schedule and 1,7,14?  Why skip the week?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Perry on September 30, 2016, 09:35:35 am
I do wonder though.  What is the difference between 1,7,21 treatment schedule and 1,7,14?  Why skip the week?

Good question, I was wondering the same thing.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on September 30, 2016, 10:44:25 am
21 days to emergence. If you treat your hive you would think that the open cells would get treated by the vapor, but there is some controversy about how well the oa crystals penetrate below larvae where the varroa would be hiding..
 so to remove all the variables and insure you get as many as possible the skip method is what was recomended..

       IF.. the vapor can penetrate and kill mites under growing larvae it would not be necessary to treat three times.  Taking the nine day variable out you have a week and five days so you could treat twice. One week apart and get them all....

   In treating twice I had greatly variable mite counts.  YES, the number of mites was dramatically reduced, but I could never seem to get a smooth transitional result  five of ten hives would look GOOD, but the other five still showed elevated mite levels.. not bad enough they needed treated as an emergency measure, but I wanted better results..
   I believe that the reasons for the seeming lack of effect were open cells..  Once I started treating the third time the anomaly vanished completely...

   I have not taken the time to figure out WHEN the varroa enter the cell, at what age the bee larvae/pupae is..   Do the Varroa have a specific date/time?  IE they NEVER enter a cell before 7 days.. so a three step treatment every other week might work?
   OR...
   If the varroa start entering cells at 5 days we should stick with the skip method...   
   What I do know is that it has worked spectacularly enough for me to stick to it, even if changes are recommended..   Grandpa always said...   Boy, if it aint broke dont fix it!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on September 30, 2016, 09:30:43 pm
...If the varroa start entering cells at 5 days we should stick with the skip method...   
   What I do know is that it has worked spectacularly enough for me to stick to it, even if changes are recommended..   Grandpa always said...   Boy, if it ain't broke dont fix it!
Lazy, I'd like to know more about this from a scientific point of view.  I've read assertions of phoretic periods lasting 2, 3, 5 and 7 days.  Does anybody really know?  I hope the phoretic interval is closer to seven days than three.  If not, it is best to have bees practicing broodless periods, and treat then.  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: capt44 on October 01, 2016, 03:23:38 pm
I use the oxalic Acid Vapor treatment.
I treat then wait 10 days and treat again.
I've had terrific results using this method.
Here's a note: I've also noticed that when I remove the cloth from the entrance that a few small hive beetle would run out.
They are horrific here this year.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on October 01, 2016, 06:29:24 pm
...Here's a note: I've also noticed that when I remove the cloth from the entrance that a few small hive beetle would run out.
They are horrific here this year.
Noticed that for the first time about a week ago.  Now, I have a hive tool ready.  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 01, 2016, 08:47:28 pm
Some of the research I read was looking at the phoretic phase to see if the mites that stayed on the host longer impacted the breeding cycle of the mite or had a larger impact on the bee/host... But I have not seen anything that says there is a specific "time" (3 days, 7 days etc...) of the phoretic cycle.. meaning how long the mite stays on its host...
   Even if it is only three days, the crystals remain in the hive and on the bees for a few days.
 I have read 5 days to 9 days...

   These crystals are deady to mites. In a heavily infested hive you can expect a drop of over 1000 mites in the first 24hr, but the treatment will remain effective for up to a week and you will see a continued but diminishing drop over the next few days.

    So basically treated twice, one week apart the majority of the mites should be DEAD leaving none to enter the cells that are about to be capped, so the third treatment is to catch the mites that emerge as the next cells open (which had mites under larvae but not yet capped during the first treatment).. killing THEM before they go into the cells that are about to be capped.
 If.. that makes sense to anyone...
   So as far as the Phoretic stage.. I am not sure it makes a difference? Or did I miss interpret the question?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on October 01, 2016, 09:03:46 pm
Quote from: Lazy
These crystals are deadly to mites. In a heavily infested hive you can expect a drop of over 1000 mites in the first 24hr, but the treatment will remain effective for up to a week and you will see a continued but diminishing drop over the next few days.
That is very interesting Lazy.  I would like to read more about how long OAV crystals are effective in the hive, can you point me toward a source to read about that?  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on October 02, 2016, 01:21:12 am

  I have quite a list of "snipets" from different sources.. I try to make sure I get the URL but sometimes I dont.. and I do not have that one.. but do have these..


    The literature says this treatment can remove 90% of varroa mites in a colony.  There will be a big mite fall on the first day and they will continue to fall for about two weeks after treatment.
http://www.talkingwithbees.com/beekeeping-how-to-guides/oxalic-acid-beekeeping

   Mites keep on falling down for 4 weeks at a steady rate before I can see a reduction.
http://www.beeman.se/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm

  the two links are not universitys or renowned research centers.. but the following page is one from a sloenian university

   Two days after the August 8, 16 and 23 OA treatments, the mite mortality was estimated
at 68.62 ± 12.29%, 65.31 ± 10.61%, and 33.35 ± 13.99 %, respectively. The mite mortality
between the second and fourth day after each of these treatments was estimated at 18.69 ±
7.43%, 22.98 ± 7.69 %, and 14.06 ± 6.75 %), respectively. Between the 2nd and 9th
days after each  OA  application,  a  highly  significant  (p<  0.001)  reduction  in  mite  mortality  was
observed and between the 9th and 11th days after the August 23 application the reduction in
mite  mortality  was  also  significant  (p<  0.05).  After  September  3,  the  mite  mortality  in
colonies with capped broods was constant at 6.25 ± 1.97% during the five weeks leading up
to October 9 (Fig. 2).

https://actavet.vfu.cz/media/pdf/avb_2004073030385.pdf

   I will have to sit down with a rum and coke and see if I can find it Lee.
   
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on October 02, 2016, 01:50:09 pm
Thanks Lazy.  :)

I found something in Randy Oliver's Oxalic Acid presentation (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-powerpoint-presentation/) coming from a different direction and estimating the number of mites remaining in a hive after treatment with oxalic acid, (Check out slides #61-65).  Still looking for info about the crystals and how long they are effective at killing mites.  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 07, 2016, 09:41:04 am
this might be easier to use. you'd likely need a respirator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOqSCLwkubw
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: neillsayers on November 07, 2016, 10:03:15 am
Guess you'd have to time it to get dosaging.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on November 07, 2016, 10:47:06 am
Ran into an EXCELLENT survey article about the biology & control of varroa destructor.  Lazy, this needs to be on your list.  Download   HERE. (https://bienenkunde.uni-hohenheim.de/uploads/media/JIP_final_Rosenkranz_Aumeier_Ziegelmann_Varroa_biology_and_control.pdf)

This article is quoted as reporting the average length of varroa's phoretic phase at six days.  Haven't found the reference yet, but will eventually.  If the average time a mite spends on the back of a nurse bee is six days, then we have confirmation for a six day cycle for repeated OAV Rx with active brood nests.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: neillsayers on November 07, 2016, 02:20:21 pm
Lee,

Thanks for sharing this link. I downloaded it to read later. The six day lifespan brings a question to mind. How to they survive the winter/broodless period. It may be answered in the article-I'll be looking for it.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 07, 2016, 02:41:51 pm
how long do most folks leave the wand type vaporizers in the hive? the timing for this should be similar. the advantage would there there'd be no cool down warm up time, just move to the next hive. you could rig up a tube extension so you could set it while applying. a full face respirator might be needed. once you figured it out you could load up enough acid to do all of the hives at any particular location. another plus is that it's self contained. no cords, jumper cables, batteries, generators, etc.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Nugget Shooter on November 07, 2016, 03:02:58 pm
Thank you for the article Lee.....
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on November 07, 2016, 09:29:48 pm
Rober, I think that vaporizer bears some investigation.  Try it and let us know how it works  :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on November 07, 2016, 09:48:24 pm
It's only a matter of time before someone makes a good low budget or do it yourself vaporizer. I have some ideas ready for prototype now.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on November 07, 2016, 10:00:57 pm
CBT, there are youtubes where people have made their own vaporizers. Hubby could do it easily. But he said if the one that he made fried a bunch of my bees, he didn't want to answer to that, or be packin' his bags...  :D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on November 07, 2016, 11:02:05 pm
Lee,

Thanks for sharing this link. I downloaded it to read later. The six day lifespan brings a question to mind. How to they survive the winter/broodless period. It may be answered in the article-I'll be looking for it.
I wouldn't want to mislead you Neil, the phoretic phase of the mite begins after they crawl out of their birth cell onto a young bee, and ends when they jump off and go into a cell with a five day old larva to begin the reproductive phase of their life. 

Mites are mature enough to mate when they leave their birth cell but wait a few days, usually riding on the backs, and feeding on, nurse bees (researchers in the article above report the average phoretic phase is six days).  Their life expectancy can be a long time (months and months). Mites are able to choose the healthiest bees with soft cuticles.

During their lifetime they can have multiple phoretic phases, infesting cell after cell after cell as a foundress mite. They can hop on foragers, or even robbers, and leave the hive piggyback to spread their kind in another colony.    :o    >:(
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: neillsayers on November 07, 2016, 11:31:51 pm
Thanks Lee,

That explains it perfectly. I know ticks fleas and other parasitic insects can live for a very long time without feeding by going in to a torpor and come to life suddenly when a host happens by. Anyone who has walked into a house that has been vacant for months and is infested with fleas can attest to this.

I read the article last night and it was a good read about this little enemy.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 08, 2016, 01:47:54 am
 it would cost me $30.00-$40.00 to build a 12 volt vaporizer similar to this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made-/172331597185?hash=item281fc37d81:g:t-8AAOSw8w1X5cF
 i'd need at least 4 of them. I have a test model already that uses a diesel glow plug for the heat source. I've run it off a my tractor battery & ran a cord & powered it off a 6 amp battery charger. I also tried powering it with one of those portable battery packs. the battery charger was slow going. the tractor was okay & the battery pack had the glow plug cherry red in seconds. glow plugs are not designed to run that hot for more than 20-30 seconds so if the battery pack was used i'd have to wire in a resistor or buy glow plugs by the case. the battery pack would be preferable when at my rural outyards. add that to the waiting for the unit to heat up & cool down the propane vaporizer starts to look more attractive. you can load the tank with enough acid work at least 10 hives per load. don the fat bee man & 1 local guy I know use them to vaporize mineral oil in their hives. they are available online for $50.00-$60.00 online so buying one won't break the bank. i think i just talked myself into buying one. the way the weather has been i'll probably even still have time to use it this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crv868VZHU&t=290s
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on November 08, 2016, 04:51:00 am
A few years ago I bought a vaporizer to use it with mineral oil, like Don recommended.  I found it to be ineffective against varroa.  But I find the idea of using the vaporizer with Oxalic Acid to be very enticing.  Certainly it should be much easier than using the melting pan with electric cables and all the rest, like Rober mentions.
Two questions to be dealt with are:
1.  What concentration of OA solution do you make?
2. Just how do we deal with the risks of the beek's exposure to OA vapor?  I have a protective mask, but, with my beard it doesn't provide any real secure protection against the vapor blowing in my direction.

I  find worthy of mention, Lburou's briliant suggestion about leaving a smoker on top of the hive being treated while applying the OA----seeing the direction  the smoke blows gives you visible warning about shifts in the direction of the wind.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 08, 2016, 09:45:09 am
efmesch-i do believe that mineral oil is now believed to be ineffective. I just put that video up to show the vaporizer again. the concentration of the mixture is the big question. I'm assuming the acid would need to be in a liquid form to be used. I've been researching that & have not found an answer yet. would the same recipe that's used for the drizzle method work? and- yes your beard would be an issue as far as getting a good seal while wearing a respirator. I know that the oil refineries in Louisiana specified no beards allowed when hiring scaffold crews from the carpenters union for that very reason.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on November 08, 2016, 11:32:46 am
We have a little grace in that we use 1 gram per deep hive body and it was tested at 4 grams to see if it hurt the bees and it did not. Don't know about the liquid. Are you saying use the liquid acid in the propane insect sprayer? If you mix with water it would make steam. It may cool fast enough to use in the hive. I did use one to make a fog machine once.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on November 08, 2016, 02:37:45 pm
Good Article Lee!  I started reading it, then downloaded it so I can finish it withy a rum and coke in my hand... a bit too early for that atm....

   Interesting video!!

   I have tried glow plugs, and switched to an induction coil. I made containers that would drop into the coil.. pull the trigger the coil heats the can, and it also opens the air valve blowing air through the holes...   When the OA runs uout, dump the can thats in it and drop another in to keep going...   My design was a bit crude and the OA leaked around the can..... At which point I saw that there were commercial versions being made...   However, if the prices for those commercial versions do not drop VASTLY and soon, I may well revisit my own design to figure out how to seal the can better..
   I was also considering/wondering if the OA vaporizing might be enough to cause it to vent without the use of AIR to push it out.. that video sort of answers that question...  It might be possible to use a smaller coil closer to the bottom of the container and just have a quick detachable nozzle at the top and bypass most of the extra mass of something that surrounds the entire can/container...
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 09, 2016, 02:11:26 pm
I found a PDF online for the owner's manual for the burgess vaporizer. it states it is designed to be used only with a black flag pesticide that has a certain blend of oils that will not damage the burner. I suspect that because the fat man & the local guy I know were using oil based sprays they haven't hurt their vaporizers. I called the burgess tech line & was told that I was thinking along the right lines in that an acid based sprayed would over time corrode & destroy the burner element & void the warranty. so it looks like this will not work unless I plan on buying at least one of these annually. it still might be worth trying. after every use I could run a tank of water followed by mineral oil to clean & lube the heating element. it would be  $55.00 experiment. I think these folks just got a boost is sales because of the zika virus craze.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on November 09, 2016, 02:46:51 pm
After reading your post, Rober, I did a Google search on "reaction of Oxalic Acid on metal".   Bottom line:  Oxalic acid will do exactly as you said, corrode and destroy the metal pipe through which the heated OA solution is pumped.  Washing and "oiling" it might slow down the process, but for the long term, it looks like the idea was good--but not practicable.  Too bad.   :\'(
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on November 10, 2016, 10:30:16 am
I would think that it would take years before the cumulative damage begins to add up to anything significant if the device is rinsed before it is put away.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: rober on November 10, 2016, 10:51:04 am
I  haven't completely discarded the idea yet. i'd like to actually put my hands on one to get an idea on how accessible the heating element is for cleaning. maybe vaporing straight water to clean following by mineral oil to coat would extend it's lifespan.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: efmesch on November 10, 2016, 11:14:44 am
There is only one way to know:
1 Does a Burgess vaporizer work with OA?
2.How long will the vaporizer last if used with OA?
Use the scientific method---
TRY IT OUT.
Perhaps some food oil could be mixed in with the OA-water solution ?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on November 10, 2016, 09:21:59 pm
It is acid. When I used my hive tool to flatten it in the vaporizer it ate the chrome or SS off of it.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: tecumseh on May 27, 2017, 07:17:51 am
a snip of another thread from another forum...
Patent https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015107233A1
Discusssion
http://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/14853/using-oxalic-acid-on-cardboard-strips-against-varroa

for anyone interest in using oxalic in a not so dangerous fashion perhaps the following patents would work... the top one is from Argentina (I think) and involves saturating a cardboard strip with oxalic.  there is nothing particularly high tech about the process and was designed to be put together on premises in a rural setting.  we shall likely try this process with the bees at the Texas A&M Bee Lab late this summer.

the patent is (I think?) the basic concept on which Randy Oliver developed dissolved oxalic on a shop towel.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on May 27, 2017, 09:33:26 am
...for anyone interest in using oxalic in a not so dangerous fashion...saturating a cardboard strip with oxalic....
This method looks promising.  However, in my view, it may be prudent to use fast acting OAV rather than leaving it in the hive for weeks and months on end.  I can hear the call in the back of my mind reminding me of overuse of early antibiotics and early acaricides.  Organisms and mites have adapted to powerful treatments in the recent past.  Will the mites develop some resistance with continual exposure to these cardboard strips saturated with oxalic acid?  I don't know, nobody does.

We have ordered one of these vaporizors. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/232308043726?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)  As long as the temperatures are in the sweet spot for oxalic vaporization (about 315-370 degrees F) it should work.  Friends and I will do mite counts and drop counts as we test it.

Here is a Link to complete instructions & recipe. Read all of  this UK.Ebay ad  (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SALE-Fumigator-Vaporiser-VAROMOR-Device-for-smoking-bees-in-varooz-/222168789298?hash=item33ba4ab132:m:mqTaNlcZxsh07pkIZF5YtqQ)for the recipe and operating instructions for this unit in English.  Two interesting  demos relative to this method can be seen here (https://vid.me/7ylQ) and here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQSMheVizGg&t=140s)

The instructions linked above include recipes for using synthetic acaricides (fluvalinate & Amitraz)...a very bad idea in my view, I intend only to use oxalic acid, maybe thymol. 

Notice the recipe using oxalic acid includes a simultaneous application of thymol.  Thymol won't dissolve in water, so, alcohol is used instead of water to hold thymol in solution.  Question, "do you need to suspend oxalic acid in alcohol to make this work?"  Or, can one just use water with oxalic in this machine if not applying thymol?

Looking forward to the arrival of this new machine.  Will keep you all in the loop with the results of our trials.  :)

Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Lburou on May 27, 2017, 09:49:23 am
I would think that it would take years before the cumulative damage begins to add up to anything significant if the device is rinsed before it is put away.
One owner I read about rinses with mineral oil and stores it.  Sounds like a good plan to me.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: alfredw on July 16, 2017, 01:51:32 pm
I just tried this with a Burgess Fogger. I used 100ml of everclear with 25g of Oxalic Acid dissolved into it.
It seemed to make great fog and was very easy to apply to the hives.
I did not do a mite count, nor did I put a tray underneath to collect and observe the mite kill.

Next time around I will place a clean white board underneath to see the mite kill.
I will also attempt to get a temperature reading off of the vaporizer.
I may aven try to capture some of the vapor in a container to see if it precipitates and OA.

I am curious if others have made any experiments and what they may have discovered.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on July 16, 2017, 09:51:22 pm
I have been told the vapor is not hot and there is no alcohol in it.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 27, 2017, 01:45:14 pm
Can you use oav anytime of the year?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on August 27, 2017, 08:36:51 pm
Yes.   However in the warmer months you will have brood in capped cells that OAV cannot reach into, So another application when those cells have opened will help knock the mites down harder.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 14, 2018, 08:58:23 am
wrong thread.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on April 16, 2018, 12:45:25 am
"wrong thread"

scott, ? ? ?

or you meant to reply to this thread and did?
Acid vaporizing & plastic frames  (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php?topic=7736.msg95178#msg95178)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 16, 2018, 09:33:09 am
Yeah, I meant to reply to "that" thread and hit this one instead.   Another year older and just a little easier to confuse myself!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on April 16, 2018, 09:49:47 pm
been there done that, do it everyday!.......... :D :D :laugh:

you admit it, i don't......... :D :D :D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 17, 2018, 08:45:09 am
heh, well if I didn't laugh at myself I wouldn't laugh very often.   ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: tedh on April 17, 2018, 09:38:15 am
Oh, I don't know Lazy.  There's always Josh! :laugh:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 18, 2018, 10:56:52 am
JOSH! Yeah, but if we laugh at him too much he will leave! Then we cant blame him for all the things we.... HE did wrong!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on April 18, 2018, 06:45:21 pm
Question about mite resistance to OA: In our bee club, we are being taught that we should switch out our mite treatments so the mites don't become resistant to one type of treatment. For instance, do a Formic in the spring, and an Apivar in the fall. Or, do an OA in the spring and a different method in the fall.

I was under the impression that the mites don't become resistant to OA .. period. And I haven't seen any news of late of that advice changing over the year.

Any input on that?




Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: tedh on April 18, 2018, 07:08:46 pm
I haven't seen any information one way or the other, but to me, it seems like a good idea to switch it up just to avoid any possibility of resistance.   "Don't become resistant....period", that's what "they" said about roundup.  Roundup resistant water hemp anyone?  Ted
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on April 18, 2018, 08:12:13 pm
i think, like ted said it is good practice to change mite treatment up (and recommended) to avoid resistance.

is o.a. the silver bullet? perhaps. only time will tell for those of us who use this exclusively.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on April 18, 2018, 08:36:25 pm
Well then I'm going to need to do some homework, because the only other form I used was 8 years ago and that was Formic MAQS, and there was too much bee die off with that, plus puts the queen in danger. I'm not going to use any other method where there is bee die off.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on April 18, 2018, 09:51:08 pm
try apiguard jen, i use it, i don't have problems with it as i do with other methods.

it's a thymol gel packet. it does work, not so hard on the bees and queens as other methods.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on April 19, 2018, 05:54:12 am
I haven't seen any information one way or the other, but to me, it seems like a good idea to switch it up just to avoid any possibility of resistance.   "Don't become resistant....period", that's what "they" said about roundup.  Roundup resistant water hemp anyone?  Ted
FWIW, I mix it up and rotate mite treatments.  We should learn from history and not create a super pest. 
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on April 19, 2018, 10:55:29 am
Hi Baker, I'm just on my first cuppa this morning... what does FWIW mean?
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Wandering Man on April 19, 2018, 02:25:05 pm
For what it's worth, Jen, FWIW means For What Its Worth.   :)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Bakersdozen on April 20, 2018, 05:47:40 am
For what it's worth, Jen, FWIW means For What Its Worth.   :)
Yes, that's right.
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: CBT on April 21, 2018, 09:30:02 pm
IMHO  ;D
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on September 08, 2018, 01:43:21 pm
Right now, my mom and pop are in Ireland, looking up moms relatives between Kilkenny and Dublin....   So,, I got a text from a "relative" who is a beekeeper asking about how we keep bees here.... I told him to get ON WWB!... but he doesn't have "regular" internet. he uses his phone and said it is too expensive....   Anyhow, the third question I asked, was how he treats his hives????

  Yeah, he said Oxalic Acid Vapor.   He said he still uses the vaporizor his "pap" made over 20 years ago. Uses butane torch to heat the bottom of it.  Trying to get a picture or vid from him... 

   OVER 20 years ago?   He says his "PAP" which I found out is his Grandfather, not his father, bought wood bleach. They started out using it in liquid form. Washing the inside of the hive with a liquid solution, that turned to the crystalline structure when it dried. SO they would wipe down the inside of the hive when they did inspections...  Yeesh....  sounds like a lot of work to me..

   Somewhere along the line they found out it worked just as well in vapor form. So "Pap" made a vaporizor with a spout, that he used his carbide lamp to heat the bottom of until the vapor started erupting from the spout...  from that day on, the walked along the row of hives and stuck the spout in, heated the bottom of the vaporizor until they saw the vapor coming from the upper entrance...

   So, were talking about how long THEY have been using upper AND lower entrances now...   Story from another thread.... this guy has an accent even texting!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: Jen on September 08, 2018, 10:12:38 pm
Good story Scott! As usual  :) 8)
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on September 13, 2018, 10:21:03 pm
scott, didn't know you were of irish descent.........but then again would make sense........... :D :D :D

uh, me too, probably makes sense to you.......... :D :D :D

very cool your mom and pop in ireland, someday i will get there!  it would be very cool to get an irish beekeeper on here!!!
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: LazyBkpr on September 14, 2018, 10:11:09 pm
   :P

   Always thought I was Irish and German.. turns out I am mostly Scandenavian!!!  with some Irish and German...   Vikings were the ORIGINAL pirates!  No wonder I like rum!      :t3816:
Title: Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
Post by: riverbee on September 16, 2018, 10:40:38 pm
scott, i think you would just like rum anyway............ :D :D :laugh:

btw....like honey bees, i think we are all mutts anyway........ :D