Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Mikey N.C. on August 05, 2019, 07:54:58 pm

Title: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 05, 2019, 07:54:58 pm
What's the best way to introduce new Q ? Quick?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: iddee on August 05, 2019, 08:25:39 pm
If for sure laying worker, it's too late. Shake them out 100 ft. from the hives and put the boxes away for the winter.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 06, 2019, 02:28:41 am
Ditto
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 06, 2019, 10:37:28 am
I have to agree.  I have tried introducing a new queen and it didn't work.  Waste of time and resources.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 06, 2019, 12:24:54 pm
Although I will say this, I have had some luck with laying worker hives, when the laying is 'just starting'. But I added two frames of fresh brood from another hive, and introduced the queen in her cage right between those frames, and left her there for 5 days. When she is released on day 5, I add another frame of brood and nurse bees. It works! but you have to have the brood frame resources to spare, and the time to spend watching. When I have checked her progress within a week of release, she is on the brood frames with the new nurse bees, and the working layers eggs have dried up.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: iddee on August 06, 2019, 02:08:51 pm
It would be better to just add the queen to 3 brood frames in a nuc and shake the bees out and let them take up with the nuc. Easier, safer, and quicker.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 06, 2019, 05:20:33 pm
That's what I was thinking about doing. Would you shake bee's off brood frames that are used or will laying worker bee take care of everything? I was thinking of adding a new box on top of laying worker hive with 2 inch winter feeder shim and laying new Q in her cage on top of brood frames ?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: iddee on August 06, 2019, 06:24:03 pm
Do what you want. Thay are your bees. I gave my opinion in reply #1.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 07, 2019, 01:49:43 am
Mikey, figure this into the equation... the working layers are already getting old, by now there are no nurse bees left in the hive, and they will just leave drones in the hive and the hive will die.

The idea of the brood frames with the nurse bees is to add the scent of young nurse bees into the hive again. Then place a new queen in between those two brood/nurse bee frames, and the hive will start to smell like the new queens pheromones. But like I said it takes time for a hive to revive using a method like this. Personally, I like watching a hive come back to life.

However, Iddee's suggestion is a good one! I hadn't thought of this idea before. He's right, it would be easier and quicker.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 07, 2019, 01:12:24 pm
I do something like Iddee but with a twist.  I typically knock out the bees (almost anywhere), add the equipment to a well populated hive, wait a day or two and then do a split and add the queen.  With a bit of thought you (and something like a queen excluder, a  double screen or a device made for doing a Cloake Board you can do this without really knocking the well populated hive down (as you might if you took the typical approach to making up nucs).  At some point you can divide the two units and level any food resources between the two halves.
 
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 08, 2019, 07:31:08 pm
Update , just walked in house after inspection 7:15 pm.
It's a 2 ten deep, 4 th frame in top 10, bam she was running like crazy, had flat capped brood , my concern was pop corn outer brood,  and I seen inner lavae that was not capped , now capped and it's flat, couldn't find her the other day😄 . Have new Q coming tomorrow , so time for late split. Wish me luck any advice please!!
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 08, 2019, 09:16:45 pm
How many hives do you have Mikey?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 08, 2019, 09:59:46 pm
3 strong ones plus that one
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 08, 2019, 11:02:15 pm
This is what I would do: This way you don't have to do a full-on split.

From your three strong hives, take one frame of capped brood 'with nurse bees' from each hive, making sure you don't have a queen on any of the three. Set them in the middle of a nuc box. Put a good frame of honey on one side, and an empty drawn wax frame on the other side. When new queen shows up at your door, introduce her to this nuc and leave her in her cage for 5 full days.

Badda Bing Baby! you have a new home for your new queen!

When I do a combination like this, I go into my hives looking for a nice frame of brood with nurse bees... but I search for the queen first! and make Sure she stays in her own hive.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 09, 2019, 05:44:11 am
a snip..
she was running like crazy, had flat capped brood , my concern was pop corn outer brood,

>I would suggest you go slowly here and would pose one question to you... did the queen look smallish? If yes this would suggest she is new and perhaps the hive has just now produced a replacement. flat brood would suggest the queen is laying and at about the time a new queen begins to lay you could still see a bit of drone brood from the previous queen.


Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 09, 2019, 12:37:06 pm
Excellent advice Tech  :) And if she's a virgin, or a girl queen, she might not be fully mated, which can take time, beings there aren't as many drones this time of year.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 09, 2019, 07:17:27 pm
correct Jen.  young queens move pretty fast and virgins even faster.  drone population and individual drones sperm viability will vary greatly depending on location and nutrition.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 10, 2019, 12:20:37 pm
Yes, I know here in upper northern Calif, even spring and early summer the weather is precarious, extreme fluctuations of warm, cold, wet, sunny, stormy weather. However, if you are a patient beekeeper, I have found th queens eventually get the mating job done.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 10, 2019, 02:35:44 pm
Update, the great ol USPS can't find her 5 day's later.
She was in Greensboro N.C. on Thursday, the day she was supposed to be delivered, they still don't know where she's at.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tedh on August 10, 2019, 09:52:26 pm
Sorry to hear that mikey.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 11, 2019, 01:47:48 am
Ooooh bummer Mikey! No beekeeper wants to hear that  :sad:
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on August 11, 2019, 09:51:35 am
Update, the great ol USPS can't find her 5 day's later.
She was in Greensboro N.C. on Thursday, the day she was supposed to be delivered, they still don't know where she's at.

Oh dear.  :sad:  She probably fell behind or under something in a delivery vehicle.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 12, 2019, 06:32:20 am
but an excellent example of why you should NOT do any kind of splitting (which is really not the theme of this thread) until you have queens in hand and until you have carefully examined the queen in the introduction package.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 13, 2019, 05:26:35 pm
Update:  post office calls me this morning at 8:30 said
Q had arrived, sent wifey to get ( I was at work) told her to open up and see if they are still alive , give them 2 drops of water and 2 drops of honey. They were all alive 8 days later (WOW). Now I haven't made split yet because I thought that shipped Q was a goner , so was going to make split this afternoon but it's raining , so going to leave work tomorrow at 10:00 and make split go back to work .Getting off work at 4:30 , come home and do intro and see if bee accept. Please any info would be appreciated on how to keep Q alive and. Is 5 hrs. enough time for split to know they are Q-less?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: iddee on August 13, 2019, 06:29:53 pm
Go home, make split, install queen, leave cork in. House bees will feed queen in 30 minutes, through the wire. Remove cork  and release queen in 4 days.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tedh on August 13, 2019, 08:46:31 pm
The down and dirty no nonsense queen introduction! I like it!  Circumstances being what they were we did the same thing earlier this season.  Heck, I think it was a queen lost in the mail and iddee gave us the suggestion!  Why does that seem so long ago?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 14, 2019, 07:05:37 am
to follow up. a bit on Iddee's comments... you can (not certain 4 days is required) watch how the bees are reacting to the queen in the introduction cage (basically are they feeding her or are they trying to sting her thru the cage wire) and release the queen directly if they are feeding here or do a slow release with the candy if they appear to be be trying to sting her thru the wire. 
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 15, 2019, 07:25:06 pm
Hi Tech, it's curious this year in upper northern Calif why so many of out introduced queens have been killed by the bees. We don't know if it has something to do with all the fires we had last year. Big question. So us seasoned beekeepers have found that a 'minimum' of 5 days is required before releasing them. And, some of the seasoned beeks have said that even 10 days is exceptable. So far, I have found that to be true.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: tecumseh on August 16, 2019, 07:34:34 am
interesting comment Jen.  of course the genetics of the bees can also play a part in the release.  my friend Chuck Reburn over in Austin Texas did a nice video about watching the behavior of the bees on the introduction cage and then making a decision on introduction.  I have accidentally just toss a mated queen into a small nucleus and had her do just fine (definitely not a recommended procedure).  The size of the spit and age demographics of the adult workers can also be a factor when any of these processes work or not.

Fires last year certainly impacted the quality (or lack thereof) of the queens I purchased from California.  Of about 25 ALL were weakly mated and did not last longer than 30 days. These were fall queens which I introduced into 4 frame nucs.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 17, 2019, 02:56:20 pm
Update: been busy and haven't replied. Made split from 2 strong hives 2 frames of capped brood with bee's ,1 frame 3/4 capped the rest 5-6 day larvae, 1 frame fully capped honey , 1 frame 3/4 of pollen with capped honey on top. All other frames were drawn comb. Used 2 inch shim on top, layed Q cage on top of frames. Waited about 2 hrs.  Looked in and bee's were all over cage (heads down- tails up) no glove ran my finger thru them, they just moved to the side and went rite back feeding. Waited another hour went back out lifted lid nurse bee's were all over her , ran my finger back through and they went back to feeding. Pulled cork and released Q she crawled out and they balled her. about half the size of your fist so waited another 1hr.  went back out opened ball was still there, so ran my finger through ball and she ran about 2 inches then straight down
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 17, 2019, 03:03:51 pm
So don't know if nurse bee's were feeding or smelling her pheromone ?
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 17, 2019, 03:05:49 pm
Now remember she's been in mail for 8 day's.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Jen on August 18, 2019, 12:12:45 am
Interesting Mikey. I'm still a little confused on the balling thing. I was under the impression that when she is getting balled, that the bees will be stinging her. Then I heard another suggestion in that when the bees are balling a queen they are trying to suffocate her.

Two times now I have pushed the balling bees away and saved the queen, put her back into a cage and give her more time to be excepted, only to find her dead.
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 26, 2019, 09:20:07 pm
Update: State bee inspector came today, late split was successful Wayne's Q is fat and sassy. And marked 😄
Mother hives 3 ten deeps , are laying like crazy and bringing in orange pollen, Did sugar roll . 6 count said 2%
Title: Re: Laying worker hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 27, 2019, 09:06:15 pm
Late split 3weeks ago laying good, state inspector said 5 over 5 it.I Will do it. She said start top feeders 1 to 1
on all hives.