New Comb

[tbonekel]

Last week, I decided to try my hand at placing empty, foundationless frames in the middle of the brood area in 3 hives to see what they do. It's been six days and I got into the hives today. It's amazing how different each hive was. I also had division board feeders in each one. Two of the hives had emptied the feeders. One was still working on it. It was about half gone. But the one that still had food left had drawn that frame out something incredible. It was almost complete and beautiful. This hive, however, is also pretty mean. I pulled apart two of the frames being careful not to jar them and several bees came from between those frames as if they were being shot out of a gun. I put my veil on and ended up taking a hit on the middle finger. Even after I closed up the hive, they were still hitting my veil pretty regular. The other hives had drawn out comb on that empty frame but not as much.

One last thing. Several hives are getting pretty full in the bottom deep. They aren't wall to wall yet, but it's getting crowded. Nothing is going on in the upper deep. If I pull a full frame of brood and bees from the bottom and put it in the middle of the top, will that entice others to come up and begin working?

[Woody Roberts]

I usually pull at least two, usually three up to the middle just so it's easer for them to heat. When the frames I put in to replace those are drawn I pull up a couple more and drop emptys in their place. I also put an empty between the brood frames in the top box.

I'm all foundationless though and the bees will draw these frames in the broodnest first. If I keep working them to the outside it serves two purposes. One, they'll all be drawn near perfect in a very short time. Two, they'll all be drawn in brood cells instead of honey cells so I can use them at any spot in the hive.

[tbonekel]

So when putting foundationless frames inside the brood chamber, should I do only one at a time? Is placing two in there too much?  And I don't even have any brood frames in the top box yet. I want them to get up  there though.

[pistolpete]

Yes, those winter bees are cranky (a lot of old people are too).  Seems to me that having them fill up the bottom and them move up on their own time is desireable.  Most of the time my bees start in the top deep at the end of the winter and completely ignore the bottom one.  My guess is that is because of where the heat is.   if you put more than one foundationless frames in the hive, donèt put them next to each other, or they will not get drawn straight.  Also I find if I put a F.L. frame in my brood area it gets drawn out 100% drone size.

[Woody Roberts]

If the box is pretty full of bees I'll drop in two, sometimes three. Just not together.
If your using foundation and you drop in a foundationless it will certainly be drawn 100% drone. After about two of these they'll be drawn worker cell.

This will cut down on bridge comb considerably.

If I set an empty box on top they take a long time to move up. If I move three frames of brood up they consider it home.

[Riverrat]

So when putting foundationless frames inside the brood chamber, should I do only one at a time? Is placing two in there too much?  And I don't even have any brood frames in the top box yet. I want them to get up  there though.

I would only insert one frame a time into the brood chamber to be drawn. Anything more than that could be asking for a whole new set of problems. and yes pulling a frame of capped brood up into the top deep is an excellent way to get them up into the 2nd deep. Just make sure you are 80 percent drawn out in the bottom deep before you bait them up

[tbonekel]

  Also I find if I put a F.L. frame in my brood area it gets drawn out 100% drone size.

Okay, I may have to go back and check one hive because I noticed that one frame had an amazing amount of drone brood already capped. I did not see this last week when I put in the F.L. frame. The drone brood was not in the new F.L. frame but in an older F.L. frame. It was, however, right next to the new F.L. frame. Huh?

Did that make any sense whatsoever?

I really need to start taking some good notes when I look in these hives.

[Jen]

Whaa?? 

Don't be surprised if Iddee tells you to take a vacation from the bees for two weeks 

[apisbees]

So how is your vacation going Jen? Itch-en to take a peek!

[pistolpete]

the reason that FL frames will get drawn out drone sized is because worker size foundation does not give them the opportunity to raise as many drones as they want to.    A feral colony (or entirely FL hive) will raise something like 20 to 30 % of their brood as drones.  A hive given only standard foundation will only raise about 5% drones at the margins of the frames.  Good for the bee keeper, because the hive produces more, but the bees dont like it.  They want to spread their genetics by having drones mate with other queens.   So if you insert one F.L. frame in a regular hive they seize their opportunity and go for drones.  Once they have a frame or two of drone brood they go back to drawing out worker size cells.     I have a couple of FL drone frames that I use for Varroa traps.  I pop them in for 3 weeks and then take them out and freeze them.

[Jen]

Apis ""So how is your vacation going Jen? Itch-en to take a peek!""

I will not lie! YES! but I'm being a good girl and simply putting on the syrup each morning. I do sit and watch them tho 

[LazyBkpr]

I usually pull at least two, usually three up to the middle just so it's easer for them to heat. When the frames I put in to replace those are drawn I pull up a couple more and drop emptys in their place. I also put an empty between the brood frames in the top box.

I'm all foundationless though and the bees will draw these frames in the broodnest first. If I keep working them to the outside it serves two purposes. One, they'll all be drawn near perfect in a very short time. Two, they'll all be drawn in brood cells instead of honey cells so I can use them at any spot in the hive.

  Don't know how I missed this thread, but looks like Woody covered what i would have said, but I do have a question here..


    I have never measured the cell size they draw out in the supers, it never occurred to me that I should.  I almost ALWAYS use those drawn honey supers as next years brood frames. I use them in nuc's and in hives...
   I've never noticed a problem or a difference. I know several very renowned beekeepers that do the same thing, and in fact thats where I originally got the idea..   
   So what is the difference in Cell size between natural worker comb and natural honey comb cell size??