Plan for dealing with an aggressive hive

[hamptor]

One of my 3 hives is more aggressive than I am comfortable dealing with.  They've been that way from the start as a new package last year.  However, they are prolific and I got honey from them last year as a new hive.   I have decided I'm going to have to do something about them because I dread going into their hive.  I open it up - they fly out on me, they attack the hive tool or the smoker when it gets within a few inches of their frames and sting me through my suit and clothes.  I want to be comfortable dealing with my hives and I'm not with this one  - so time to come up with a plan.  I've got some questions, but want some opinions.
1.  I know requeening is the primary answer - but that will require me being in the hive long enough to find her and it's 4 medium supers full of bees.  (Being in the hive a long time - unpleasant thought.)    I saw a Youtube video that suggested putting a queen excluder between each box, waiting a week to see who has new eggs, and then finding her.   That would be an option for later on when it warms up a lot and I can move a frame from one of my gentle hives with queen cells and brood and combine using the newspaper method (after I find and pinch the queen).  I'd put on a new super and have the queen cells, brood, honey frames above the newspaper.
2.  I got to lift up a frame yesterday  (mid 50's here and needed to check food supply).  In the 2nd box from top (only one I lifted frames in)- the frames were loaded with brood.  If I take one or more of those frames of brood and put it in a weak hive (combine using the newspaper method), will the brood that is born follow the pheromones of the gentle hive's queen, or will their genetics from the mean queen override  and they'll bee aggressive in my now gentle hive?  I'd like to build up my gentle weak hive and take down the numbers in the mean hive.  I'd really like to hear what you have to say on this.
3.  This hive is probably going to swarm. A part of me says Good Riddance old queen - take your mean self and go.   But that will mean losing lots of workers and I know that's not a good plan.  So I will try to prevent swarming from happening.  BUT if by chance it does swarm and the aggressive hive makes a new queen, will the remaining bees remain nasty in their temperament with the new queen even if she has a calmer attitude, or will they follow her lead and calm down?  My guess is that until the older bees from Mean Queen die out, they'll stay aggressive and then when the new queen's brood hatches, they'll take her temperament.  That could take until May  for all of this to take place. 
4.  I read about misting the aggressive hive with sugar water rather than smoking them when I have to go in so they're busy cleaning each themselves and each other rather than attacking me.   Anyone use this method? 
I'd really appreciate ideas on dealing with an aggressive hive.

[NoTactJack]

Another option is to break the hive down into smaller colonies. Some times a big hive is just aggressive.   You could buy new queens split the hive and then find the old queen in the smaller hive. It help to have an alternate location to move the splits at least 3 miles away.


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[Barbarian]

I would not relish the prospect of going through a strong aggressive hive to find and cull the queen.

I would choose to weaken the hive before going in. In preparation, I would have someone willing to help move the hive, a spare hive stand, floor, brood box with frames, inner cover and roof.

At the end of a flying day the hive entrance is closed with a foam strip. That day, or early the following day, the hive is lifted and moved a few yards away (the end of the row of hives would be suitable). The spare brood box (with a frame of a few eggs from another hive) goes into the position where the aggressive hive was..... inner cover and roof follow. Now I remove the foam from the aggressive hive and retreat.

Over the next few days the foragers will return to the old stand. If the numbers have gone down sufficiently you can get into the old hive and cull the queen. If the hive is still strong leave for a few days. The next step is to close the entrance and move the aggressive hive to the other end of the hive row and re-open. The new foragers will beg their way into the other hives and you will have an even weaker hive to find the queen in.

Once you have culled the queen, there are several options available. You can 1) requeen the hive, 2) do a paper combine with another hive, 3) use it as a queen cell raiser hive, 4).... ??.

I've probably forgotten something but someone will correct me.

Good luck    Colin

[iddee]

Many times a hive will calm down immediately when requeened, other times you have to wait until the new queen's prodigy take over.
Most times it will be in between. A calmer hive immediately that continues to get calmer as the weeks pass.

In your case, I would wait until mid to late Feb. and ask a local beek  "hint, hint" to take a look at that hive. Then make a decision on what to do at that time.

[brooksbeefarm]

One way i've dealt with mean hives is get meaner . Put Bee-go on top (it smells like plastic foundation) , it will drive them down, on a sunny day as much as two med. supers or at least enough that you can see the queens not there.Put a queen excluder on and set the two empty med. back on over night then take them off and put a lid and bottom board on it, keep only the capped brood and take a frame of eggs from your good hive and swap them or buy a mated queen for your new hive. You can leave the old hive crowded and let them swarm then requeen it when there's not so many bees. OR you can sell it to iddee, he lives in NC. and likes to get stung. Jack

[Gypsi]

I like Jack's suggestion.  Do  split or 2, during daytime when the workers are gone be sure to provide plenty of nurse bees to the splits and if your other hives can spare a frame of brood, give the splits good brood.  When working hot bees, layer clothing under the suit, duct tape pockets shut, wear boots with your suit and jeans tucked inside, and if the boots do not close tightly at the top maybe stuff grocery sacks or something in there to close the space. 

[hamptor]

I like the divide and conquer idea you all have suggested.     I was just reading Michael Bush's Requeening Hot Bees article and that's what he suggests, too.  Thanks for your suggestions. And Iddee - thanks for the offer to help (again:))
But what about if I put a frame or two of their brood in a weak hive.  Will those bees that emerge be aggressive (like the genetics of their queen) or will they take the disposition of the gentle queen and hive?

[iddee]

Sorry, but I don't see the purpose. I see no reason to do anything to a hive in this area in this weather, except emergency feed when totally necessary.

[Jen]

Hampton, it does sound like this hive is more aggressive than I have experienced. But there have been times when I have been in the hives and for no reason one of them would be more assertive/aggressive, flying out quickly and landing on me and/or several buzzing my face. I posted my concern the same as you. My teaching from this forum said to not worry about it for now. You may not now what is making the bees cranky this week, then two weeks from now they are placid and quiet. This has rung true for me.... so far.

[LazyBkpr]

The suggestion of having another beek aid you is a good one. Its amazing what you can accomplish with some experienced help. I maintain a full suit for mean hives.
   I just CANT walk away from a hive if they are ticked off at the world when I NEED to do an inspection, so like it or not, they GET inspected.
 No one likes to get stung. If your bees are getting you through your suit, then order an UltraBreeze. You need to be confident and comfortable. Wear your current suit normally, but have that Ultra Breeze ready if it is needed. The piece of mind it brings is worth twice the asking price of the full suit.  Walking up to a MEAN removal job with bees clustering on the netting in front of my face, its really nice to say... HAHA!!  Cant touch this!   

   

[hamptor]

Lazy - I am laughing out loud!  Love the MC Hammer.   Thanks for the suggestion about the Ultra Breeze suit.  I hadn't heard of it before.

[LazyBkpr]

STOP!  Hammer time!

[Jen]

AAAAAHahhaahah!    hitting the desk laughing! I Love It!

   And the assertive girls would be saying back "I Told Ya Home Boy! CAN'T TOUCH THIS!"

   Killin' Me 

     

[Ray]

Two excellent suggestions, Jack and Barbarian.
In C.C. Miller's book '50 years among the bees', he writes about a hive that reacted aggressively to smoke. He claimed they were much calmer with a sugar sprinkle (this was before misting bottles).
(I lent my copy of the book to a friend, so this is from memory... what little I got left)

[apisbees]

The temperament of lots of old bees in summer and fall compared to a much smaller work force of new young bees in early spring can be quite different finding the queen on a warm afternoon when there is a bit of a flow on, you may find them much more gentle.
When it comes to genetics and aggressive behavior no one knows what will be produced until the new queen is the true mother of the bees in the colony. I have seen the daughters of aggressive queens be calm and have seen it work the other way. Some researchers believe that the aggressive traits come from the drones and with the queen mating with so many different drones from different queens it is impossible to guarantee the outcome. All a beekeeper can do is try to flood their mating area with drones from desirable queens and hives.

[tecumseh]

very defensive hives are prime prospect for being totally reduced into multiple nucs/splits.  you may want to employ the Doolittle method of nuc production here which just casually sounds a bit like what Jack describes above only Doolittle would brush the bees off at the entry and then put on a queen excluder and then come back a short time later and begin pulling off nucs above the excluder.   when i am doing nucs in good numbers this is exaclty how i do things < really you don't need to find the queen which in a very strong hive is very very difficult.

I suspect what Iddee is suggesting is that the timing for doing this is not right now but later and given that this particular hive is hot you may want to do the splitting with mated queens since no matter what or how you do things the drones from the hot hive will still be flying and you may not want to pass along that particular genetic material.