Clean wax or aged comb?

[LazyBkpr]

   As it was explained to me. Brood comb is not good brood comb until it reaches 4 to 5 years of age...

   Yet...  with the pesticide build up in the wax and older comb, we are being recommended to replace it about the time it becomes "good". In many cases recommended rotation is three years instead of five, depending on location.


"We found that four of the pesticides most commonly found in beehives kill bee larvae," Frazier said. "We also found that the negative effects of these pesticides are sometimes greater when the pesticides occur in combinations within the hive. Since pesticide safety is judged almost entirely on adult honeybee sensitivity to individual pesticides and also does not consider mixtures of pesticides, the risk assessment process that the Environmental Protection Agency uses should be changed."


   So how do you know???   

   We need a test kit..  FIll a cell with this special fluid, dip the test strip in.. if it turns red replace the comb, if it turns green your good for another year.
   heh, wouldn't that be nice?

[Zweefer]

That there is a great idea!

[BoilerJim]

I think you may be on to something there, Lazybkpr!

[tbonekel]

Let me know when you got it ready. 

[Woody Roberts]

I suspect it depends on where you are and what pesticide's are in use around you. I'm in cow pasture country. Not much farming nearby. I've got old brood combs that are black as the ace of spades. These seem to be the queens favorite.

I ain't trading them out until I see issues.

I would be interested in one of your test kits though.

[pistolpete]

My oldest comb is 3 years old, so I have no personal experience, but I have heard from several sources (including our bee inspector) that frequent comb rotation contributes to better bee health.  In particular nuc suppliers say that rotating out old comb by selling it with nucs has improved hive health overall.    I think that favouring old black comb is a carry over from the days of unwired wax foundation.  All those old cocoons in old brood comb make it tough as nails and it holds up better to handling.   I've been slowly switching over to black plastic frames for the brood areas.

[efmesch]

Another reason for keeping your combs light is that dark combs tend to impart a darker color to your honey. 

[LazyBkpr]

  I have always heard the opposite PP..  that survivability of larvae is greater in older comb.. precluding pesticides of course. As woody said, queens seem to prefer that older comb to lay in as well.
   Honey supers/comb and brood comb are two different critters. I like fresher comb in the supers for sure. Nicer looking honey and easier to uncap.   
   I was just reading different research and got to wondering about the brood comb so typed it out loud
   Living smack in the heart of farming country means I need to keep rotating out my older comb, but it would be nice if I had some way of determining the contamination so I had a means of knowing... knowing I need to rotate sooner or if I can leave it in longer.
   I am afraid that if left in until I see signs of problems it will be too late. Sterile queens/drones and lots of brood dying, and or hives not making it through the winter etc...

[vossejongk]

Heh, opposite experience here. When I give them empty frames on position 2 and 9 (out of 10 frames) to build drone comb to when capped cut it out to catch varroa, the whole brood nest tends to center around ether side. The new comb is always full of brood, no nectar or pollen , they store that in the older comb o_0. I never let miss queen visit the honey chambers,  my way of keeping the honey "clean".

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[riverbee]

pistolpete
"In particular nuc suppliers say that rotating out old comb by selling it with nucs has improved hive health overall."

and this is how some unscrupulous suppliers/keeps rotate their old comb out.....you get it and buy it, then you have to deal with old comb.

i had brood comb that was probably 20 yrs old, maybe more, i think i have cycled it all out.  i live like lazy, in the heart of farming country.  one of the reasons i switched to waxed plastic foundation was because of the ease to scrape the old stuff off, melt it down, clean it up, etc, roll some fresh wax on and put it back in.  mostly brood comb, and i do like the pierco black for brood, and white for honey supers.  the queen does prefer to lay in the darker comb.  some of my honey frames are still beeswax foundation, and until they crash in the extractor, i keep using them.  sometimes the queen lays up in these, but for the most part i try to catch this before she gets carried away.  always have .

beekeepers don't like to, or are reluctant to change out comb, especially brood comb. i was and still am to a certain degree, reluctant.  these frames are prized, and much energy from the bees to draw foundation, it takes away from a honey crop. on the flip side, if your comb is not 'suitable' and your bees are not healthy, then you won't have a honey crop anyway, let alone healthy bees.   IPM.  if you can't see through the comb, or the recommendation now is every 3 years.  a lot of work for both beekeeper and bees.  i am probably not diligent about the 3 yr mark, but do the best i can to rotate old brood comb out now more than i ever have. just think this is what i need to be doing for healthy bees. rotating drawn comb for honey supers is much different.

[brooksbeefarm]

Hey squirt, i thought about you and perry yesterday when i went through some hives. I pulled the outside frames out on two hives that still had deep plastic foundation in them filled with honey and the bottom bar fell out and so did the honey, Grrrr, had bees coming from every direction. Plastic foundatio is rotating it's self out of my hives. Jack

[efmesch]

..... i switched to waxed plastic foundation was because of the ease to scrape the old stuff off, melt it down, clean it up, etc, roll some fresh wax on and put it back in. 
[/quote]
River--How do you roll on the fresh wax?

For the first time in years, I've put a few plastic frames in one of my hives--unwaxed--and even though I have them placed tightly one against the next, they insist on building off the plastic surfaces.  Some are parallel to the plastic and some are perpendicular---creating bridges of comb between adjacent frames [making a mess every time I inspect them].  My  only explanation is that they don't like building directly on the unwaxed plastic surface.

[brooksbeefarm]

Because of the sour milk smell. Jack 

[riverbee]

"Hey squirt, i thought about you and perry yesterday when i went through some hives. I pulled the outside frames out on two hives that still had deep plastic foundation in them filled with honey and the bottom bar fell out and so did the honey, Grrrr, had bees coming from every direction. Plastic foundatio is rotating it's self out of my hives. Jack"

that's cuz you didn't nail and glue them properly jack......ZING!!!!..........

"River--How do you roll on the fresh wax?"

ef i use those mini paint/trim rollers, made of foam or fabric. tecumseh also has a post here, does the same:

waxing plastic foundation

"not really my idea since I got this directly from one of Brooks's Missouri friends... instead of a brush get yourself one of those small diameter foam trim paint rollers (I buy my own from Lowes).  you do have to set the roller in the wax for a bit to let the foam absorb the wax but once you do it is one quick pass with the roller, place roller back in wax, flip the wax foundation, another quick pass and you are done.  as far as I KNOW efficiency in this process is also about the size of the wax pot relative to the job at hand."


also, my HO, i would avoid using unwaxed frames, these seem to give the bees lot's of reasons for them to make us annoyed, or maybe it's us annoying them......

[apisbees]

The recommendation in Canada is 20% which is 2 frames ib a 19 frame brood super. These recommendations come from the provincial, CAPA (Canadian Association of Professional Agriculturists), and the Canadian Honey Counsel.
The recommendations come from studies that indicate that some of the problems with bee colony dieing is caused by a combination of pesticide residues, viruses, Bacteria, Fungi, Diseases, and Predators, at times being attacked with multiple threats at the same time. Spores from AFB, EFB, Nosema, Chalk brood, Sack brood are all found in the hive and in the wax of cells that have had infected larva in them. As with most viruses bees can tolerate and suppress the spores, but over time the number of spores increase until the disease breaks out.


Commercial Nuc suppliers who are selling more than 1 nuc per colony are not filling their nucs with old comb because the combs are being sold in nucs at a rate higher than the 20% suggested rotation rate. The Beekeeper that Pete has bought his Nucs from produces on average 3 nucs per colony to sell. that is 60% of his comb in the brood boxes replaced every year. As smaller sidline beekeepers that most of us on this forum are, If we are selling a few nucs off, are we selling a comparable product? Newer good comb, well stocked with young bees, good solid frames of brood not just frames with some brood on them.

[Jen]

Woody - ""I've got old brood combs that are black as the ace of spades. These seem to be the queens favorite.""

I don't mind very dark wax, it's easy to spot eggs in ~

[LazyBkpr]

So the argument continues between a couple of friends about older and newer comb..  I have been searching for any type of actual research... and had all but given up when i found this..

   http://www.ent.uga.edu/Bees/Publications/effects_comb_age.pdf

On average, colonies with new comb
produced a greater area (cm2) of brood, a greater area (cm2) of sealed brood, and a high-
er weight of individual young bees (mg). Brood survivorship was the only variable significantly
higher in old comb.



      So it seems they are both right, to a certain degree...   Need to read this completely, have only scanned it so far...


    Conclusions
Over three years of field study, honey bee colonies housed on new comb had a greater area of total brood, a greater area of sealed brood, and higher weight of individual young bees. Brood survivorship was the only variable significantly higher in old comb. The bulk of the evidence suggests that new combs optimize overall honey bee colony health and reproduction. These find- ings suggest that beekeepers should eliminate very old brood combs from their operations.


  So until I can find a conflicting research I am going to go with that and keep rotating my comb as i have been.   

[efmesch]

Well done Lazy!!!