empty supers on in winter?

[robo]

The proper way to ventilate a bee hive you need an upper entrance on top and makeup air coming in from the bottom entrance. Heat rises and cold air settles.. heat will never escape from the bottom.  Robo I see a moisture problem with nuc number 2. number 1 is ok. What I would do. Drill 2 holes in the shim to remove the moisture.

Thanks for the thoughts Ray, but I don't have a moisture problem.  I've been overwinter 25-30 nucs a year with nuc2 configuration and have never had any issue with moisture.   Heat is way more valuable to bees as it lets them raise more brood sooner and use less winter stores.   My 10 frames overwinter in 1 deep with only without needing feed.   How many beeks in NY do you know that overwinter in 1 deep?

Just sharing my experience.

[Ray4852]

I don’t know anybody who overwinters nucs with one deep and don’t feed. What are you using Russians. Last year I overwinter 2 nucs, carniolans, and they made it thru the winter with 5 frames and 5 frames of honey on top. You got a nice system there.

[robo]

Most feral hives are 8ft. or higher off the ground and many times have more than one entrance, being high up they catch more wind. so you can't count out ventilation all together. A feral hive in a tree cavity i think would not have a moisture problem because the tree would absorb the condensation and thick wood has a good R value. The moisture on a cluster would depend on the temp., if they are alive and can move around they can utilize the water and move in and out of the cluster to keep warm and dry out, If the temp isn't below freezing. Of course not all feral hives are in trees, houses, barns, sheds, ect., our hives (Beekeepers) are close to the ground with a higher moisture content, in a wood box with a 3/4in. insulation on the sides,either a soild or screened bottom board and a 3/4in. lid with a sheet of metal on it and what ever type of insulation we put under it. Where as a hollow tree may have several inches of insulation on the sides and several ft. above them.I guess what i'm saying is that,we are causing the bees problems buy making things easier for us to control them, while the bees are in a cluster saying, i hope they get it right. Robo i'm also interested in your results. Jack

Jack,   

I get the "tree" vs. "hive"  difference explanation all the time.   I can only speak for my locale,  and we all know beekeeping is region dependent (I guess with the exception of ventilation which is universally "needed").

I have done 100s of bee removals,  most of which are not in trees.  I do my best to persuade folks to leave bee trees alone if they are not a direct safety issue to the public, which most are not.   A majority of the removals I do are from old dwellings with no insulation.  Very similar to the properties of a standard Langstroth.   I have yet to witness one of these colonies that have not sealed up every crack but the entrance.   I have seen nests in metal gas tanks on the ground and even utility boxes below ground.

Here is an example.  This was an abandon house that was the childhood home of a NYC lawyer.  He purchased the place and wanted to restore it.  He remembered the bees being there 30 years ago when he was a kid.  The construction guys wouldn't work on it until the bees where gone.   If you look the left of the window you can see where the original entrance was that had since been propolized shut as the colony progressed over the window and to the right.

I was amazed at the effort these bees put into sealing every crack between the clapboard siding.

Why would they do this if they thought ventilation was so critical?

Why do even my two frame mating nucs take so much time and energy to propolize shut the screen on the feeder holes even though there is a telescopic cover over it?



Maybe it is just me, but I'm skeptical that ventilation is "helping" the bees as general consensus makes it out to be.   As Michael Bush says "Bees continue to survive despite our help".

[Mosti]

Would leaving an empty super on in winter hence being t' there in spring swarming season act like chequerboarding?

[Mosti]

Would leaving an empty super on in winter hence being t' there in spring swarming season act like chequerboarding?

Anyone??

I havent got any knowlegde on chequerboarding, I just read an article somewhere but this came just as a thought.

[iddee]

My opinion is, it would do much more harm in winter than it would help in the spring, if there are any bees left in the spring to help.

[riverbee]

"Would leaving an empty super on in winter hence being t' there in spring swarming season act like chequerboarding?"
"Anyone??
I havent got any knowlegde on chequerboarding, I just read an article somewhere but this came just as a thought."

mosti, i don't checkerboard. i do have some knowledge on checkerboarding but have no practical experience with it.  personally, with your original question, in my location i would have removed the empty super and not left it on. you said you left one on with no apprarent negative results last year, maybe other years might bring detrimental effects, IMHO,  one year really is not a good gauge for continuing practice unless it works for you year after year.   your original question:

"Simple dilemma. Would you leave an empty super on for a couple of months  in winter? Would it be an issue of bees having to provide a lot more warmth? I did leave one last year on one of my hives without apparent negative results?"

my other question mosti is why or what were the circumstances the empty super was left on?  were these drawn combs or undrawn combs? plastic, waxed plastic or beeswax combs?

[LazyBkpr]

   I am on the opposite end of the spectrum from Rob, but am also running several hives with no top entrance this winter because I believe what he does works for him, or he wouldnt be doing it. At this point I am less than hopeful after checking them last Saturday.

 

   Robo;
 Have you have seen bees overheat during a bee removal?  You will find them wet.  Where does this water come from?  From within them.

   Me;
   They regurgitate what they have in their stomachs, usually the honey and nectar they have ingested because of the smoke I puffed them with when I was removing them..  They were not WET, they were a STICKY honey covered MESS that I dumped out of the vac in a big sticky ball, and felt HORRIBLE...   I saw Honey and nectar, not water. Looking for a better explanation of "within them".

   Robo;
Catchy beekeeping wife's tales such as "bees don't die of cold, they die from moisture"  are hard for people to look past and they are easily accepted as truth.   If one looks into the science behind it you will see many discrepancies.
   If ventilation "is" the solution then I'm not sure how my "deprived" bees have survived for so long.  It is the easy solution for the beekeeper.


   Me;
   I cant say I have looked into ANY science behind it, only my own bees, who survived 50 below wind chill for extended periods last winter, WITH upper ventilation in EVERY hive.. so...  I have to say I have, if not science, at least my own PROOF that COLD DOES NOT kill bees.. if it did I would have no hives right now..
   There are literally millions of hives surviving the cold, with upper ventilation.. From Michael Palmer and Michael Bush to Brushy Mountain and Randy Oliver, people are using upper ventilation to control excessive moisture.. 
  I use upper ventilation because I have had hives perish because of moisture, or so I assume when I find a ball of dead bees frozen through the center with an icicle through them like a wooden stake through a vampires heart.   did they disgorge the moisture? I doubt it because of the little stalagmite built up above them that told of drippage from above.     

   Easy solution and wives tale?  It has been working for over 30 years that I know of...  I am OK with the easier way, if that way keeps my bees alive.
   I have nothing but respect for you Robo..  I KNOW what your saying works for you. Just a little confused about why you are so adamant in refuting something that so many beekeepers can prove beyond any doubt works for them.


   In checking hives, I can already say I do not like having the upper vent holes/entrances blocked off..  the sugar is WET and I have excessive moisture in the hives already..   It HAS been very wet and rainy, not the best conditions to test the lack of upper entrances. Perhaps your humidity levels are not as high as they are here?  If the moisture levels in the hives do not taper off within the next week I am going to re open the upper entrances.. I cant afford to lose those hives.

[robo]

Sorry if it seems like I come across as adamant that is not my intent.   Perhaps I do get too worked up at times when people just repeat the same old lines and tell me what I am doing is wrong and won't work.  I just want people to think on their own and not just follow.

It's not too hard to go back in history and find many experts agreeing on "facts" that later turn out to be not true.   I'm still waiting on the experts to explain why feral bees are wrong for trying to eliminate all ventilation and how they can possibly be surviving.  Shoot even domesticated(?) bees attempt to eliminate it.

I never said hives would not survive with ventilation, but I do believe they do much better when you allow them to retain their heat.   

Even more dumbfounding to me is the fact that people still insist that the bees don't heat the hive, only the cluster.  I'm still waiting the explanation how they can be warm and the heat not escape through convection.

It has been very wet and rainy here as well, in fact it has been pouring rain all day.   He is a current snapshot of my hive data.   You can see how the ambient humidity has been all over the place and how the humidity in the hives have stayed pretty constant and for the most part lower than the ambient.  Keep in mind these sensors sit on top of the frames, they are not cluster temperatures.

[iddee]

I'm not that far north, but we still get into the teens, which is below what the bees can stand in actual temps. My bees close all upper openings, some have totally closed the oval hole in the inner lid. If that's what they want, that's what they get. I don't add ventilation and don't close any existing cracks.

[LazyBkpr]

Sometimes following a proven method can be beneficial, especially for a new beekeeper unsure of whats right and wrong..  but I do agree that a little original thinking can go a long ways. We would still be riding horses without it..

  I am going to see if I can find the research on wintering bees.. IIRC the bees did not have enough (wattage) to heat the hive around them. In fact the bees did not even attempt to heat the hive, they only kept the center of the cluster warm, the outer layer of bees acting like insulation and maintaining a temperature JUST warm enough so they could hang onto the cluster.. IIRC  45 degrees at the exterior of the cluster...

Well, this wasnt the research I found but says pretty much the same thing..  Perhaps from the same paper I originally read?

The mantel layer of exothermic bees serve as insulation for the inner bees. They do not participate in the endothermic heating of the core of the cluster. Individual mantel bees maintain a temperature that allows them to move about and remain attached to the cluster. If the thorax of the mantel bees, cools below 48°, they are no longer able to activate their flight muscles for heating, fall into a chill coma, and fall off the cluster.
   http://www.westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html


   No, I do not believe that bees CAN heat a standard 3/4" pine board hive a meaningful amount when it is 0 degrees outside that hive.. Upper vent or no upper vent, But they may well be able to raise the temps within a non vented poly/foam hive..

  I have not yet had any bees attempt to close off the upper entrances as many have shown..

[robo]

I hear you Robo.  I should mention that these two colonies were two deeps full of bees,not NUCs.  Either way, I don't want moldy parts at the top of my hives, I'm going to continue some ventilation up top.  I'm interested in your results though. 

Figured today would be a good time for an update,  it is currently -2F outside.   Hive 2 is about 30 degrees warmer inside and Hive 3 is almost 40 degrees warmer.  So I continue to struggle with the theory that bees only heat the cluster.
Off today to teach day 1 of our 2 day "intro to beekeeping" workshop.........

[LazyBkpr]

So I continue to struggle with the theory that bees only heat the cluster.

   In those foam nucs I'd imagine they are capable of heating MORE than just the cluster.. excellent insulation around them and a smaller space that they need to warm..
   The results you are getting are encouraging to say the least..  What would it take to do the same thing with a standard wooden langstroth hive?  Two deep or three medium configuration?

   I opened up three of the hives last weekend, there was just WAY too much moisture, the others that remain closed off to all upper ventilation are not doing as bad..   difference in the cluster size or type of bees?

[tefer2]

Scott, I think Rob's success comes more from those poly boxes than what type of entrance holes he has. JMO.  I can't get more than a few year's out of them before the ant's turn them into Swiss cheese
If I remember right, he also has a bottom drain hole in the nucs to let excess moisture out.
I can't duplicate his results with wood boxes, so I gave up on the idea.

[LogicalBee]

Always nice to see real data!  It makes speculating easier to do.   Good job Robo.

I currently use small top vents on insulated hives in Michigan and that has been working fine for full sized hives.  The bees have been putting off enough watts to keep those insulated hives 20F+ above ambient, despite the losses through the small top vent.  However I am pondering a configuration change to my nucs, which tend to run cooler (also with a top vent).

I see in Robos latest post the plots are of “hive 2” and “hive3”,  Are those both bottom entrances, or is the cooler “hive 2” got a top vent?  What I like about the “hive 2” plot (and what I’ve observed in my own hives) is that the bees in hives with top entrances will do a cleansing flight on warm days, whereas bees inside insulated bottom hives often do not.  Yes, you lose more heat with a top vent, but are there other benefits that offset that?  Like more opportunities for cleansing flights?

[robo]

   In those foam nucs I'd imagine they are capable of heating MORE than just the cluster.. excellent insulation around them and a smaller space that they need to warm..

This data is from 10-frame hives not nucs.  Hive 2 is 1 Deep/1 Medium,  Hive 3 is 2 Deeps

   The results you are getting are encouraging to say the least..  What would it take to do the same thing with a standard wooden langstroth hive?  Two deep or three medium configuration?

Not sure if you are talking insulating them or instrumenting them.   These simply have a temp/humidity sensor resting on the top bars.

   I opened up three of the hives last weekend, there was just WAY too much moisture, the others that remain closed off to all upper ventilation are not doing as bad..   difference in the cluster size or type of bees?

I believe cluster size and area of hive makes a big difference.  The bigger the cluster and smaller the hive the better.  Most of my hives in my bee yards are just 1 10-frame deep.  I also don't worry as much about moisture as I do where it ends up.  With high insulation value on top, they are always dry on top and if there is any condensation, it is on the walls or bottom and away from bees.  My Warre hive often has water running out of the entrance on cool spring mornings.   Today it actually has icicles hanging out if it (vertical entrance).  But the bees are up where it is warm and are dry.   And this is just a wooden hive.

Scott, I think Rob's success comes more from those poly boxes than what type of entrance holes he has. JMO.  I can't get more than a few year's out of them before the ant's turn them into Swiss cheese
If I remember right, he also has a bottom drain hole in the nucs to let excess moisture out.
I can't duplicate his results with wood boxes, so I gave up on the idea.

Yes ants can be an issue,  but I have had really good luck keeping them on concrete slabs.   When I have had ant problems it has been when they where sitting on hive stands about the ground. Acrobat ants sure can go to town on the polystyrene.  My normal bottom board set up on poly hives is just plywood with a 4"x3/8" entrance.  I also drill two 1" screen holes in the floor for fresh air and drainage.   My poly nucs get two 1/4" drain holes in the front corners.

Are those both bottom entrances, or is the cooler “hive 2” got a top vent?  What I like about the “hive 2” plot (and what I’ve observed in my own hives) is that the bees in hives with top entrances will do a cleansing flight on warm days, whereas bees inside insulated bottom hives often do not.  Yes, you lose more heat with a top vent, but are there other benefits that offset that?  Like more opportunities for cleansing flights?

Yes, both have bottom entrances only.  I think the temperature difference is most like due to amount of bees.   The warmer hive is actually bigger and has a larger entrance.  I do not leave any upper ventilation and most of my hive are just 1 deep and make it through the winter with plenty of honey to spare.  With only 1 hive body, I don't think there is a significant difference in cleansing flight activity,  the bees are always in close proximity to the entrance.  Get two deeps or more than you are probably right.   My philosophy is limit the amount of unoccupied space and the bees can better manage and heat it and actually use much less honey to keep warm.  That is why I can overwinter in 1 deep, when the standard in my area is two deeps and a fair portion of the time feeding as well.

[LazyBkpr]

OK, so... this is different data than started in/around post number six with the nucs?  Sorry, not keeping up very well without going back and re reading..

   I was talking about a standard wrapped wooden langstroth hive. I have seen data collected by...  whoever.., Joe Scientist, but have never seen anything conclusive by someone I know can be trusted not to doctor the results.
 

[Gypsi]

funny I only found the moldy bees on the BOTTOM of my hive.  Not putting a top entrance on.

[LogicalBee]

With only 1 hive body, I don't think there is a significant difference in cleansing flight activity,  the bees are always in close proximity to the entrance.

Good point.  Many folks seem to like double deckers for their nucs.  Thoughts on double deckers vs singles for nucs?  Do you just winter your nucs in a single box too?  If so, what configuration works best for you?   

What's your thoughts on the location of your sensor vs the cluster of bees?  Do you think the location of the bees affects your readings at all?