Pre Fall Inspection On Hive #4 possible empty deep to remove?

[Gypsi]

oooops... exhaustion hit.  Now I have to go to sleep and look tomorrow, it's 12:34 here,  and it was a very long day

[ledifni]

What if she put the deep on top of the brood-filled medium?  Wouldn't the cluster move up, consume what's there, and move on to the honey-filled medium on top?  Or is that just too much empty space to keep warm?

[efmesch]

I repeat Iddee's comment: "Upper Calif. isn't too specific a spot."
To give any relevant advice about the winter stores you should expect to need, one would have to know a lot more about your local climate.  From a short "tour" of "upper California" on the internet, it is obvious that the region has a great deal of variety in the winter cold to be expected---how cold and for how long.  Knowing both of these factors is vital in planning proper stores for a hives' successful wintering.  Another factor would be how long the weather stays unremittingly cold---if warm spells are expected during the cold of winter weather, the bees might have enough time to break their cluster and reorganize stocks placed in different supers.
How about giving us a map location of your home town?

[Gypsi]

My big hive queen was laying upstairs, the bottom was getting alot of pollen and bee bread and honey.  I condensed them into one deep, regardless of frame height (bees will build a medium down to fill a deep), and gave them an empty medium on top a month ago.  With one frame of honey, to get the queen to lay downstairs and them to store upstairs. So far they are still mainly storing downstairs, not enough wax flow to draw out the frames on that empty medium on top, but the queen is indeed laying in the deep. Yesterday I newspaper combined on a medium with drawn frames and half full of honey and older worker bees storing syrup, and syrup.  When they have come through the newspaper I will remove the empty medium.

[pistolpete]

My question for you River:  if the bees wont' move down in the winter to get food, why is the bottom brood box usually completely empty in the spring time (at least mine seem to be).   I don't open my bees up till it gets fairly warm, so it could well be that the bottom deep doesn't get cleaned out till spring.   I always thought that the cluster forms at the bottom of the hive and gradually moves up during the winter.

We don't have wax moth or SHB up here, that may well affect management styles too.

[Jen]

Led- "What if she put the deep on top of the brood-filled medium?  Wouldn't the cluster move up, consume what's there, and move on to the honey-filled medium on top?  Or is that just too much empty space to keep warm?

I'm reading and answering as I go along

Led, I've been keeping for 4 years now, but the first 3 years were calamity after calamity because I didn't have a mentor or proper forum. This last January I joined this forum and I have learned soo much. So in fact this last January I went back to square one and concidered myself a beginner again.

So this is what I 'think' I know about your question.
    Yes, it wouldn't be good to have that much dead cold space above the bees, they need their winter food right close to them. During the serious cold snaps they will not break cluster to walk up to the food that is at the top of the deep frame and walk back with that  food. The closer the food is to the cluster the better. Otherwise they will starve to death.
     So in my opinion of Riv's suggestion, that is why the deep would go on top. So when then weather starts to warm up and the cluster starts to loosen and move about, they will then be more inclined to go up further to retreive that stored food in the deep frames.

Okay, so let's see how I did as far as offering correct knowledge 

[riverbee]

"My question for you River:  if the bees wont' move down in the winter to get food, why is the bottom brood box usually completely empty in the spring time (at least mine seem to be).   I don't open my bees up till it gets fairly warm, so it could well be that the bottom deep doesn't get cleaned out till spring.   I always thought that the cluster forms at the bottom of the hive and gradually moves up during the winter.
We don't have wax moth or SHB up here, that may well affect management styles too."

pete, a great question. the cluster does form at the bottom, because the bees have 'forced' the queen down storing for winter months in the top deep. the bottom box empties typically well before we realize it is.  the bees use these resources, sometimes, not always, before they move up. also throw in your breed of bee, and how conservative or not they are.  sometimes we will find honey remaining in outer frames and the colony starved in the top deep, totally empty of any honey. or we thought that bottom deep had stores in it, and it didn't to begin with. sometimes we think that bottom deep has stores in it, when it does not. i always check before cold weather sets in to see that there are frames of stores in that bottom deep.  not sure how to explain this, but i can gauge when a hive is top heavy as cold weather progresses.  the bees do not move down, or will not go for those resources, if any, in the bottom deep, and sometimes in very cold weather will not move from side to side in the top deep. in warm spring months, i often find honey in the outer frames in the bottom deep.
i hope i answered your question?

my management practice in general is not to place or leave any box on a hive that the bees cannot protect or defend.  ants, waxmoth, mice, or other pests/critters. and bees tend to chew wax from unused drawn comb to repurpose elsewhere.  in my HO it makes more sense to me to remove jen's deep in the near future that contains feed in it and to place it on top at a time when it is most needed, be it now or later.  in winter months, we can't exactly reverse our hives to put the feed on top for the bees to utilize, because we know the bees move upwards.

looking at jen's photos, it would appear the bees have tried to ready the deep frames for the queen to lay in, and it also appears some wax has been chewed?  the queen didn't move down, and i highly doubt she will now.  if jen had a different configuration, she could have moved the queen down, (same size frames) or reversed.... i don't remember the history of the hive? and maybe jen, you tried this? was this deep on top?  and maybe the queen didn't move down to lay because there was a honey cap there?

if jen, you had time in your climate, you might consider placing that deep on top and feed them with a one gallon pail of 2:1 til the bees packed away some extra feed in that top deep. i don't know if you have time for this. they will need time to 'cure' this before your winter sets in.  i am thinking you might not? another option would be to consider placing a shim on for winter feed, or candy/fondant board on.  or just pinch that queen and combine?

i think apis at one time suggested that he thought you could overwinter your bees with a deep and a super with no problem jen?  pete suggested 60 pounds for your area, looking up your location, pete may be right on about this.

also, consider your bee genetics, italians can really blow through stores.
hope this helps?

[iddee]

Another mistake I think most folks make is thinking bees have several boxes, deep, med., and shallow. NOPE!

Bees have a one room house. They work it from the top down most times, but can vary at times. It is still one box to them. If we would talk areas of the hive, like top, center, and bottom, rather than deeps and mediums, we could understand how the bees act much better.

[Gypsi]

A deep and a super are enough in Texas provided fondant is fed.

[riverbee]

"Bees have a one room house. They work it from the top down most times, but can vary at times."

....this is the reason i do not reverse my hives in the spring, and the reason that i add extra space to the bottom (a new deep or bottom) rather than on the top when building a new colony started in a single deep in the spring and early summer months.

[Gypsi]

Well now that is interesting. but when you add honey supers in flow in spring do you add to the top or the bottom?

[riverbee]

gypsi, when i add honey supers i do add them to the top.  iddee brought up a good point about how bees move in a 'space' , but they always store honey at the top, so my supers go on top....

[Jen]

Riv- "if jen, you had time in your climate, you might consider placing that deep on top and feed them with a one gallon pail of 2:1 til the bees packed away some extra feed in that top deep. i don't know if you have time for this. they will need time to 'cure' this before your winter sets in.

   This is probably in my book... but how long does it take for sugar syrup or nectar to cure?