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Offline Riverrat

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splitting packages
« on: November 26, 2014, 10:38:58 pm »
I have been following a thread on Facebook from another forum concerning how many nucs  one can split from a new 3lb package of bees with new queens.  While I have seen it done a few time most with disastrous results I thought I would post  and see what the panel of experts come up with here.  I know back in the day when I was new to beekeeping I had some of the thoughts of why not. But as I gained experience I found that this wasn't sound thinking.  SO what is everyone's opinion on this one.
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Offline Ray4852

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 11:16:06 pm »
You need a strong hive to make a nuc.  Cant do much with 3lb of bees.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 11:17:24 pm »
I have also read a lot of opinions and theories, but have not replied to any of them...

   Best case scenario, is if you have resources to draw from. Drawn comb being a prime factor. Availability of a frame of brood, two if possible
   Worst case scenario is splitting up the bees and making them start from nothing..  It takes BEES to make wax and bring in resources. The lower their numbers the less that is getting done, when they NEED progress.
   Yes, you can split a package up IF you have the resources to give them for the best start, but I believe that splitting a package in half also splits their chances in half, or 1/3, or 1/4 etc...
   I think its much preferable to grow them STRONG and then split...
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Offline iddee

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 06:39:40 am »
Bees were sold in 2 lb. packages years ago. Then with all the pests and diseases weakening them, breeders went to 3 lb. Anything less than 3 lb. today does not have a good chance of being overwintered in most localities.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 10:11:42 am »
Like Lazy said, drawn comb and lots of bees. I have bought packages with queens that started out great only to be superseded after laying two or three frames (wasn't breed good,or??), but had a great laying pattern. So i begin taking the first or second frame with eggs and start a nuc (5 frames) to let them raise  queens from those eggs, that way i could keep the new genetics mixed with my mutts if the packaged queen fails. I;ve got some good queens this way, and i have done this when buying just queens also, i may lose the new queens, but not a total loss. 8) Jack
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Offline riverbee

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2014, 06:23:12 pm »
"I have been following a thread on Facebook from another forum concerning how many nucs  one can split from a new 3lb package of bees with new queens."

what are they cheap? push bees to no end? if i understand the question correctly riverrat, I....me, myself and I.......would not split a 3lb package of bees.  i would take the 3lb package and let them build up and get them to overwinter, then the next spring divide.  hard enough now a days to get a nuc up and running let alone splitting a package of bees and adding queens, seriously? they will lose their bees and their queens........splitting a package of bees on my planet and in my environment is not good bee management in my HO....
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Offline Perry

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2014, 06:30:40 pm »
I've seen early package bees being split with a second queen being added and they never truly amounted to much. They were weak going into pollination, weak coming out, and then they got split again before winter. (60 % loss I believe come spring).
Not what was intended for packages IMHO.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2014, 07:19:31 pm »
yep perry, totally agree!
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Offline pistolpete

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2014, 08:26:09 pm »
I think that the question needs a little clarification.  A Nuc is 2 frames of brood, 2 frames of honey/pollen, bees to cover 4 frames, and a laying queen.  A package is some bees and a queen.  So really you can't make any type of Nuc from a package.  Now if you were to take brood and stores from existing hives and use the bees from a package to cover those frames, then I think a package would make up two Nucs.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 09:33:37 pm »
If or when i buy a 3# package i start them on drawn comb, then if the queen proves to be a winner i will steal frames of eggs from her and replace them with brood in frames from other hives. I then will make splits from my strong hives and put the egg frames in the nucs for them to raise queens from them. This way i can keep new genetics in my bee yards, To many times i've bought package bees and queens only to have them superseded for a unknown reason?? I don't think i explained it clearly in my other post. ??? Jack
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 09:59:01 pm »
A "NUC" can be anything from two frames to eight frames. I believe Jack is talking about Starting Nucs..

   Wiki =
   Nucs, or nucleus colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it. The name is derived from the fact that a nuc hive is centered on a queen, the nucleus of the honey bee colony.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuc

   I have started nucs with a single frame worth of bees and a virgin queen from a cast, but it took considerable resources to get it up and going.  A Nuc that is considered for sale, and one that is "started" from a split, swarm, etc is very different.
   In this case, I have seen folks claim to have "started" up to 4 nucs from one package. As stated, having started nucs from small swarms or casts, I wouldn't recommend the practice, without having other resources to put into it, at which point, your better off growing the package and splitting it when its strong.
   I like to "start" a nuc with four frames of bees. Preferably all with brood and food, along with the nurse bees on them, and one frame of drawn comb..   It takes Covering bees to keep brood warm. A queen will not normally lay more eggs than she has bees to cover, so starting with FEW bees means it will take her much longer to get started and build the colony up.  The more bees the more brood, the more bees, etc...
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: splitting packages
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 05:11:03 am »
it use to be that people would buy a 4# package of bees with two queen added to the package < may not sound like much but cutting the margin by 1 pound could be the straw that breaks the camels back???  these were then split two ways but comb and feed in some frames was at least two ESSENTIAL components for this strategy to be successful.  one of the old guys I use to work for used this routinely in that part of Wisconsin that he called home and he gave me the impression that success or failure of this strategy was very much location dependent.
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