Food for thought on trap outs.

[Yankee11]

I did several successful traps outs this summer (thanks to Iddee) but here is something I noticed.

They really didn't do very well once they were done. None of them seemed to build up good and struggled.

Now, after reading some stuff on Randy Olivers web site "Scientific beekeeping" made me start thinking. He says that once the bees become old enough to start foraging that their glands that produce royal jelly kinda dry up. So now if I go back to trap outs, the bees that we catch in trap outs are the foragers. Your not getting the nurse bees that it takes to start queens. Since the first 3 days or so are very important to raise good queens, I am thinking a trap out may not be raising a very good quality queen. I understand that the foragers are returning loaded with nectar and pollen. But the royal jelly comes from glands from nurse bees. And if you think about queen starter colonies. What do they say, pack them with nurse bees to start the queen cells.

Just some thoughts for discussion.

[iddee]

BINGO.......

Removals and trapouts are for the 300 to 600 you get paid for removing the bees.

The 20% success rate of getting decent hives is only a bonus.

[brooksbeefarm]

Not so sure about the production of royal jelly from nurse bees only? Swarms leave with the old queen (Normally) and worker bees, and soon there after replace the old queen, so some of the workers have to revert back to nurse bees to raise brood and probably a superseded queen? I have come up with some good queens superseded from swarms. Jack

[Yankee11]

I think swarms are different.  I think the make up of bees are different that a trap out. They are not expecting to be trapped out.  At least with a swarm, they start out the new hive with a laying queen.

I love swarms.

But I am learning that cut outs are not worth the work (just for the bees) and I am thinking the trap outs are not either. Like Iddee says, unless your getting paid to do them. If I am not getting paid to do them and most of them don't turn out well. Then my time is better spent in my bee yards working my owns hives.

I think the older bees can somewhat produce the royal jelly but can they produce it fast enough to start a new queen in a trap out. They are totally unprepared for that situation. He also talks about this in overwintering colonies. The longer into fall/winter you can keep that queen laying, the younger bees you will have coming out of winter, when the need to be producing royal jelly to start building up.

[LazyBkpr]

Your right, they arent worth the work unle your gettng paid.. in fact, mot cut outs are not worth the work without getting paid..

   As I understand it, a bee has the ability to "regress" if the situation requires it..  Meaning, those glands become productive again, and if necessary, as in during a trap out, if the foragers are not returning, the nurse bees will advance ahead of their time to go out and forage.. this is what depletes the hive.. with no bees coming back, the nurse bees will start going out...
   In your hive that is collecting all those bees that cant get back in, you will have all sorts of mess going on.. bees that have given up some time to become foragers are suddenly going back to nurse bees.....
   Adding a a couple frames of capped brood (From nucs you need to cut down the numbers a bit to maintain?) will give them a major boost in young nurse bees.    But you have to have the resources to give them.. if you have to pull those resources from a production hive, your right back to it not being worth the cost again.

[Yankee11]

So, if I go to set up a trap out.  Maybe I shake a bunch of nurse bees into the trap box with the frame of eggs. That might give it a better
chance of getting a queen well fed in the first couple of days when it's the most important.

As far as cutouts. I think I'm done with them, I think all the ones i did last year either got robbed out or taken over with hive beetles. It's a lot of work for some beeswax. 

[Perry]

With trap-outs I usually add a frame with open brood of all stages so that raising a queen (eggs that are already swimming in royal jelly) shouldn't be much of an issue. Either that, or when you have as many hives as I do, there is usually always one somewhere that I know of that is already making queen cells  and I just rob a frame from it.

As far as charging for cut-outs and trap-outs, it's become a must in my books. It is far too easy to increase numbers in other more productive ways. When I do them (to be bluntly honest), it is usually for the notoriety and goodwill it generates. I get a bit of publicity out of it, some $$$, and usually the person helping me wants/needs the bees.