Convert to 8-frame decision

[omnimirage]

I plan to expand my operation and build many more beehives. I'm developing back problems at too young of an age, and I struggle to lift a full 10 frame honey super. I've also noticed that the bees don't tend to fill the outer frames of a deep, 10 frame super. It's evident to me that deep, 10 frame supers are not optimal for honey production. The use of them seems most suitable for a system involving queen bee excluders, with the deeps being used for the brood chamber. They may be ideal when using queen excluders, but I feel queen excluders are not ideal for anything other than comb production, but I'm really unsure. Investing in deep 10s, the standard, seems none-worthwhile. From what I've been reading, 10 frame seems to be the standard due to how the Langstroth Hive was originally designed, it was arbitrarily made a 10 frame system. Many people seem to be converting towards an 8 frame system. It seems overall, advantageous, on the account of the deep size for 10 frames being too large and inflexible for my tastes.

I note that 10 frame mediums are just about as heavy as 8 frame deeps. I simulated this weight and lifted it, and found it to be quite heavy but manageable, just at my peak. Something to take into consideration, is 8 frame system tends to encourage building upwards, rather than expanding sideways. In Australia, I believe beekeepers often need to transport hives around: it might be easier for me if they weren't as tall when doing so. Furthermore, I have most of my beehives at a good sight (my property) that has a big ant problem: I've needed to put the beehives on a stand to redeem such, my big 10 frame 4 deep beehive might be too tall as an 8 frame hive, and the hive could still grow yet.

Where I live, 10 frames is the standard. I'm interested in building beehives and selling my inventory to the public, so conforming to the 10 frame standard may be better for business. I may be able to find more profitable deals on gumtree, if I'm seeking 10 frames, instead of 8 frames. I already own about 30 supers for 10 frame deeps. I have large ambitions in beekeeping, and if an 8 frame setup is better for me, I'd rather invest in such now, before I'm too committed towards 10 frames.

[Perry]

I won't disagree with any of your observations, I think there comes a time for all of us where we have to make adjustments to the way we keep our bees. For me, from the very beginning, was to avoid collecting honey in deeps. All my honey supers are mediums. A few years ago I could carry 2 medium supers full of honey but no more, now it's one at a time. My deeps are strictly for brood chambers and don't require moving hardly at all.

[kebee]

 I started out with 8 frame hives and glad I did for the bees are doing great in them, built them up to 2 deeps and the other medium on top. I do not let the top go over 3 medium though before I get the honey off because I would not be able to handle it any higher. I don't think you would regret going to 8 frames hives and the bees don't mind any way they just want a good cared home.

Ken

[Bee Commander]

I started 3 years ago and had a hard time making the decision on whether to go with 8 or 10 frame equipment. I went with 8 frame for just about all the reasons you stated. I'm soooo glad I did. I am selling Nucs this year. So far I a have customers bring their equipment and I install the bees; most have 10 frame, I can't believe the difference. The 10 frame feels so clunky in comparison. Being 56 and a girl, the 8 frame is working well and the bees are filling out all 8 frames.

[Lburou]

There really is no 'right' or 'wrong' in these matters.  Sometimes there is regret, but no right or wrong.

I like 8 frame deeps.  Lazy Shooter gave me some 8 frame mediums so I have a few of those around, but my heart is with the deeps.  I took a five frame NUC box, put a hinged top on it, added some screened vents, and move four or five deeps in that box using it to move bees on comb or capped honey frames.  Even with ten frame deep equipment, you can move five frames in another box to split the load. 

I'm strictly a small time hobbyist...8 frame deeps or mediums work for me.  No regrets using 8 frame equipment, except that some of the accessories are not available for 8 frame equipment from suppliers like Mann Lake...Probably different in Australia.  HTH   

[apisbees]

Queen excluders are available for 8 frame hives even in Australia
http://www.redpaths.com.au/products/hive-bodies-or-supers/queen-excluders/
From the standpoint of available comb area to the queens and colonies needs, 2-8 frame supers do provide enough brood space. A little more attention needs to be paid to the bees bot filling and packing out the brood chamber to early in the season. This is a hive management issue that could require going into the brood boxes and opening up to allow more room for the queen to lay.
Langstroth experimented with many hive designs and configurations and came to the conclusion that the best design for him in keeping was to use 2-10 frame deeps for the brood chamber. This design allowed for the room the queen needed, with room for honey and nectar stores The way the bees like to have stores surrounding the brood chamber. Bees like to have the frame and 1/2 of honey and 1/2 frame of pollen on the outsides of the cluster In a 10 frame that leves 6 frames for brood in between. If you allow the bees to do this in a 8 frame set up you are down to 4 frames of brood. The solution is more checks into the brood chambers pulling up honey bound frames, or adding a medium as a 3rd brood box.
As you pointed out the weight of the 8 frame deep and the 10 frame medium are close to the same weight when full. 3 mediums provides the same space as 2 deeps, allows the bees to store the honey to the out sides and keeps the hive height of the brood chambers lower.
All this being said it comes down to what is best for you and what will allow you to be able to still keep bees with our bad backs, arthritis and carpel tunnel hands, sore and titanium replaced hips and knees.
To get the weight down to the least, using all 8 frame mediums will keep the full honey supers under 50 lbs and 4 mediums will provide the queen with the area needed for uninterrupted brood rearing. It will allow for frames to be pulled up if needed to alleviate congestion in the brood chambers.
Since Langstroth's design of the 10 frame hive back in 1852 lots of others have tried to improve on his designs, Hoffman did by introducing the self spacing frame that is the standard in the industry now. Dadant in the 1890's built a jumbo super 11 1/2 inch in hight and the super was built square holding 12 or13 frames. This design did meet all the needs and requirements of the bees but was not so practical for the beekeeper. and never caught on. I played with the jumbo frames on 2 hives that where 10 frames. In theory there is sufficient area for all the brood and queen laying space needed for the colony. But if the bees plugged the brood chamber by storing honey in more than just the outside frame, opening up the brood chamber was difficult. The frames where to large to fit in the extractor, moving them up was not an option due to different super height.
In designing his hive Langdtroth was looking to make keeping bees easier by making it more practical. So what ever system or setup makes is the most practical and enjoyable for you Is going to be the best system for you. Just what ever setup you decide on keep in mind the basic needs of the bees and adjust your management system to suit.

It got a little long (Verbal dysentery)

[LazyBkpr]

Apis, you are a gold mine. You just saved me a lot of typing...   I have to say...   What Apis said!!!!   I cant put it any better than he did!!

[omnimirage]

Great information guys, particularly informative post apis. I'm going to switch to 10-frame mediums, they seem the most practical overall. I'm actually concerned about 8-frames being too high up, my 10frame deeps are already at that maximum comfortable height level.

[LazyBkpr]

I use all mediums, I have lifted too many deeps filled with honey to EVER want to do that again. 
   When I end up with a hive that is two deeps, I will put a medium on top of them, and winter them that way...  Depending on the winter, I may be able to pull both deeps come spring, put the medium on the bottom board and place a new medium on top for them to draw out, ending the year with three mediums on the hive as they prep for winter...    If they still have resources/brood/etc in the top deep I put it on the bottom board, pulling out the bottom deep, and add a medium, ending the year with one deep and two mediums.. as stated, in the following spring when they are all at the top, I can usually pull the last deep out and give them a third medium.
   It works well with the least amount of fuss if your not in a major hurry.