Using starter for foundation less

[Mikey N.C.]

Does this one look OK, looks like they are big cell's, if that's the case, is it OK ? ?

[iddee]

They will build the size cells they need. Let them do what is natural if you are going foundationless.

[apisbees]

They are great for storing honey and raising drones. you will not get workers from that frame. if you are only using deeps for brood and shallow for honey Leave it in the hive and use it for drone culling when the queen has it laid full and it's capped over.
Imprinted foundation was invented to encourage the bees to draw more worker brood. If having large drone population in your hives is a problem then possibly use foundation in the brood chamber and go foundation-less in the honey supers.

[Mikey N.C.]

Thanks iddee,Apis
Ya was experimenting in top 10 deep brood box ,checker or stagger. Here is full frame next to that one, guessing they need that many drones ?

[LazyBkpr]

   In my experience using foundation less frames, they will average about two frames worth of drone brood (4 sides)  If you want more worker comb, then manage a couple of nucs and have the smaller colony draw out the comb. They will typically draw worker comb. new colonies will also draw mostly worker comb..   Usually by the time they have grown to the point they WANT drone comb i let them have at it.
   The reason I may remove drone comb is if I do not like the genetics or temperament of a specific queen. As Apis said, the drone comb is also nice for minor mite management, and I will also uncap drone comb and pull out the pupae to count the mites to see if I need to treat.
   With deeps, you will need to use more care handling them. I cant tell if you have the frames cross wired?  And definitely dont try to spin honey out of a deep foundation less frame. I run all mediums and can get away with spinning foundation less if it is well attached and I use a bit of common sense and dont run the extractor on WOW...

[Rugerbob]

You can always cut-out the drone cells and if you do it after they are capped there is the added bonus of reducing the mite count.

[riverbee]

mikey.....

what iddee said:

"They will build the size cells they need. Let them do what is natural if you are going foundationless."

scott really is the one here who uses foundationless frames and blueblood in his top bar hives.  i do not.  i do use them for comb honey in my honey supers, the bees always build drone sized combs in these frames (it's awesome).  if you look at frames long enough, and the bees busy work, whether beeswax or waxed plastic, these are not drone sized cells, they follow the pattern of these smaller cells (workers) and the bees work these out for the queen to lay drones where they see fit. i have cut foundation of drone cells (as an experiment sometimes, to find the bees rebuilt the same drone cells in the same place........... )  perhaps the propensity for more drones in foundationless?  scott, blueblood, apis ?

this really is no different than top bar or warre hives? this is a question from me to anyone who uses foundationless.

[LazyBkpr]

I have pictures of a frame of standard cell foundation that the bees built Drone cells over the top of.. I tried three times to scrape that foundation and have them re draw it correctly... didn't work, they made drone foundation right back where it was..   I put a new piece of foundation in, and they made more drone foundation, just a bit different in location compared to the old frame..
   As I understand it, in a natural hive, the bees want a certain amount of drones, once they reach a specific maturity of hive growth, and they will make drone comb where ever they are capable..  Usually between frames etc..  Natural comb (foundation-less) allows them to satisfy the need.
   I have read where beeks get upset and keep ripping it out, and that many think that drone comb is ALL they will draw after a certain point...   This has not been the case for me..  Once they satisfy their need, or desire, they return to making normal worker comb.
   I do NOT put drone comb in new hives to help them get started, but I will put drone comb from old hives or deadouts in mature hives so that they dont need to BUILD it. I mark those frames for easy recognition when I do inspections.
   Understand, this is ONLY what i have observed in my own hives with foundation-less frames.
    As I see it, if the hive is big enough to WANT drone comb, then I let them build it and get it over with. When I feed for winter, they normally backfill that drone comb with winter reserves.
  Drone comb has advantages as mentioned above. It also puts the drones from YOUR queens out there to mate with any other new queens, hopefully improving the genetics..  of feral hives, neighbors hives that just buy generic packages etc... 

  Found the pic...