Foundation vs Foundationless

[rt1068]

I am sure this has probably been covered before, so I apologize in advance.  I tried searching but I gave up going through all of the keyword hits that the search produced.

So, here is my question.  In starting brand new, what are your thoughts on the pros and cons of going with foundationless frames.  I have seen several examples of people advocating going this route and I have seen just as many advocating going with foundation frames.  So, it appears that opinions are all over the place.  Imagine that!

I havent decided which route I want to go and would love to hear your thoughts.  Thanks and, again, I apologize if this has already been covered.

Rick

[iddee]

Start with foundation. Once they are all drawn out, if you want to go foundationless, put one frame tightly between two drawn frames. A full box of foundationless will have you cutting out the cross combs and rubber banding them into the frames. Also, the first few foundationless frames will be mostly drones, which you don't want in the beginning.

[Wandering Man]

Start with foundation. Once they are all drawn out, if you want to go foundationless, put one frame tightly between two drawn frames. A full box of foundationless will have you cutting out the cross combs and rubber banding them into the frames. Also, the first few foundationless frames will be mostly drones, which you don't want in the beginning.

I've still got wonky comb in my broodbox because I thought I'd join the cool kids and go foundationless in parts of my hive.  I hope to get it cleared out in the Spring, and stick with foundation until the girls are trained better.

[riverbee]

"Start with foundation. Once they are all drawn out, if you want to go foundationless, put one frame tightly between two drawn frames."

what iddee said. start with foundation, and i would use beeswax foundation.  oh i might get spanked over this, because i do use waxed plastic foundation now in brood boxes. a bit of a learning curve for the bees and beekeeper...........

if you are adding either.......you MUST feed them, if necessary. best time to add foundation is in the spring.

drawing foundation takes a great deal of resources and young bees to draw the foundation out, foundationless....more. 

[40 Acre Bees]

The way we went when we started, was foundation in the two bottom deeps, and we decided to go foundationless with our honey supers, because we only had two hives and our intention was to harvest using the crush & strain method and we also wanted some comb honey.  It worked great for the first few years and this year we had no honey what so ever.  I believe because it was so dry there was no nectar and the bees just did not want to draw comb.   Hopefully next year may be better, and now we are up to five hives I see an extractor in the coming year and a mixture of foundationless and foundation in the honey supers. 

[Zweefer]

Agreed.   I have moves to mostly foundationless, and continue to go that direction.  But you need something to get the girls to draw straight, or have a lot of patience and be willing to cut and correct a lot as they draw out.

[rt1068]

"Start with foundation. Once they are all drawn out, if you want to go foundationless, put one frame tightly between two drawn frames."

what iddee said. start with foundation, and i would use beeswax foundation.  oh i might get spanked over this, because i do use waxed plastic foundation now in brood boxes. a bit of a learning curve for the bees and beekeeper...........

People get spanked around here???

Thanks for the suggestion on the type of foundation; that was going to be my next question.  I look through the supply catalogs and get pretty overwhelmed at options.  So, I need to figure out what kind of frames and foundation to use to get started.  I appreciate all of the advice!

Rick

[iddee]

Only the fun type spanking, RT.      

[rt1068]

Only the fun type spanking, RT.      

That is good to hear.  I had my share of the other kind growing up.   

[rwlaw]

I've tried foundationless a few time over the years, most times I've been happy with the results. Two things I've found. Hot weather and no foundation leads to making a mess when inspecting, it's sooo fragile till it hardens up, there has to be reinforcement ( I like bamboo skewers dividing the frames into thirds). When the population reaches a certain point all they want to do is draw drone comb, nucs are the best worker comb builders.
If I were you rt, I'd start putting out the word that you want to start beekeeping. There has gots to be some Amish down that away that's making wooden ware, they'll probably be handling foundation too. I like peirco myself, it stands up to extracting better IMO.

[riverbee]

"People get spanked around here???

Thanks for the suggestion on the type of foundation; that was going to be my next question.  I look through the supply catalogs and get pretty overwhelmed at options.  So, I need to figure out what kind of frames and foundation to use to get started. "

lol rick!!!, the 'spanking' around here like iddee said is of the very FUN type!  jack frequently gets after me and perry for using waxed plastic foundation! but it's all in fun!!!

foundation..........when first starting out, i would suggest to go with traditional foundation, whether beeswax or waxed plastic. for waxed plastic i use pierco, (like rw) and will add, or roll another bit a wax across it.  move onto foundationless later.  just my HO. lot of a learning curve moving to all foundantionless.

when i started out, i had all beeswax foundation, deeps and supers.  not sure when the other came into the picture?  there are some advantages to using waxed plastic. i have a combination of both now, trying to cycle 'older' foundation out. i went to replacing the beeswax foundation with the waxed plastic when i need to cycle old frames out.  it just depends on your preference, your style, what you desire and what works for you. 

i do like beeswax foundation frames, but i also like the flexibility of the newer waxed plastic frames.

i do use foundationless frames in my supers for comb honey, as long as i space correctly (usually between drawn frames)  i have no problem.

lot to learn about foundation..........what's important is learning when and how bees draw wax and the needs to do so.........  bees draw wax the best in spring months, and if we need to feed them to draw wax, we must do so, and not depend on any flow to get the wax drawn..........just my ho!