Author Topic: Will winter bees last thru the winter without a queen? (Read 7855 times)

Jen · « **on:** January 31, 2014, 06:37:07 pm »

My friend has a one deep hive that I consider part mine.

Last fall I searched for the queen three times before buttoning up for winter, no luck. There is a small cluster about the size of an overly large soft ball in this one deep hive. They are still alive. They don't roar when the lid comes off.

How long will winter bees live thru the winter without a queen?

Crofter · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2014, 07:22:57 pm »

I think the colony survival depends on the queen starting to lay small patches of brood to begin replacing population so there will be an increasing number of young bees to replace the ones that are dieing. 140 days seems to stick in my mind about individual survival time.

Some hive have been equipped with temperature probes and there is an observable temperature rise when they start raising brood. I thin that is a do or die situation but you better get some more opinions Jen.

iddee · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2014, 07:32:37 pm »

Turn the worry dial off. There's nothing you can do, so why worry. The first 60 plus, calm, sunny day, open the hive, lift the frames, and look for larva. If you don't have eggs or larva, you have a dead hive. Just be sure they have food until then, and afterward if they have brood.

tecumseh · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2014, 07:58:01 pm »

I am GUESSING that if you still have any bees in the box then you still likely have a queen present. she may or may not be mated well (who knows) but without some queen pheromone to stick the rest of the bees to the box the adult worker bees would have drifted off long long ago. it seem to me they will tend to do this in hot weather and cold but the rate at which they leave is much faster as the weather first begin to get cold.

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2014, 09:40:51 pm »

I've had hives come through the winter that didn't have a queen at least 2 times, and what made me look hard for a queen was the presents of alot of drones in the hive in late Feb. and early March? This was on warm days that i broke them down looking, i looked at some other hive in the same yard that had queens , but no drones? Late March (sometimes ) i have found drone cells. but it's usually April before we start seeing alot of drone cells in my area. I'm thinking they kept the drones around because they had a failing queen and had hopes of replacing her, but she died during the winter. both of these hives came through with a good cluster of bees> Jack

Jen · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2014, 09:48:59 pm »

scenario's

1. If there is no queen, the workers would have left or died from low morale = no pheromone from a queen

2. If there IS a queen, then she will hopefully start laying some brood. Wait to see if she is laying a solid patch of brood. If she's not laying a solid patch of brood... Should we requeen.

3. I've seen drones in my hive come out this winter. I'm thinking there may be drones as well in my friends hive. If we suspect that there is no queen, why couldn't we requeen.... if there are drones available for mating?

4. Is this small cluster worth it? Yes! Definately!

Not giving up that easily Iddee... not yet ~

iddee · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:01:44 pm »

Go for it. At worst, it is a great learning tool. At best, it is a honey producing hive.

Who knows, it may be both.

Jen · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:08:11 pm »

Brook ""I've had hives come through the winter that didn't have a queen at least 2 times, and what made me look hard for a queen was the presents of alot of drones in the hive in late Feb. and early March?""

Brook! Now that gives me a little more hope. Now... were these large clusters? heavily populated colonies? See the one my friend has is maybe the size of a large softball, maybe a little more

skydiver · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:13:28 pm »

Quote

Last fall I searched for the queen three times before buttoning up for winter

If you looked late in the fall after the queen stopped laying for the year it would be harder to spot her because she would look more like a virgin queen than, the laying queen we are more use to seeing. Unless she is marked and not replace with out you knowing.

Jen · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:55:29 pm »

Iddee ""Go for it. At worst, it is a great learning tool. At best, it is a honey producing hive. Who knows, it may be both.""

Edward · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2014, 12:07:22 am »

They can also make a Queen out of a worker bee.

The hive is doomed beecause she cannot lay any workers, look for multiple eggs in the cells.

If they don't have a Queen or lay eggs when the other hives start, do a combine or just throw them out , take away their hive and the will seek refuge in the nearest hive.

mvh Edward

tecumseh · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2014, 06:55:32 am »

a Jack snip...
I've had hives come through the winter that didn't have a queen at least 2 times, and what made me look hard for a queen was the presents of alot of drones in the hive in late Feb. and early March?

tecumseh...
well with no queen you would also have no drones. I would suspect Jack in the 2 case you mention here that you had either 1) a poorly mated late season queen or 2) a properly mated queen that simply ran out of semen and therefore could only produce drones.

in regards to 2 I have often wondered if severe cold weather combined with a low population might not critically injure the semen in a queen and thereby turning here into a drone laying queen?

Jen · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2014, 12:36:27 pm »

I need a senario to help my friend find out if this hive has a queen. We'll wait for a 65 day. I I'll add that he is old school, and doesn't get into his hive. I do it! And I don't think he knows what his queen looks like.

Step 1

??

Edward · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2014, 01:08:03 pm »

Move a frame into the hive with eggs and 1-3 day old larvae , If they make Queen cells then they don't have a Queen.

mvh Edward

Jen · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2014, 01:19:59 pm »

K! That's one easy solution

How many days will it take them to make the queen cell, so we can check

Edward · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2014, 02:54:46 pm »

The next day .

mvh Edward

iddee · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2014, 03:07:08 pm »

Lift out and look at the frames with bees on them. If there is open brood, there is a queen. If not, there is not a laying queen. If she is there, she is no good.

apisbees · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2014, 03:06:20 am »

Jen A softball size cluster of bees. Lets face the facts with this few bees there are not enough bees to support the colony whether there is or is not a queen in the hive. On the next warm 65+ day and you open up the cluster if there is no brood from a laying queen they are beyond hope. and with the mess your hive is in in various size frames and boxes, they cannot afford to lose the resources to try to get his hive the population to raise a new queen. It will be another 2 months before you will get guaranteed queen mating weather with an ample supply of mature drones. Going from when we could get mated queens and packages out of northern California back when we could buy bees from the USA.

tecumseh · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2014, 07:36:21 am »

very small population do have the undeniable problem Apis is suggesting above. there are other approaches you can use that MAY remedy this problem. this manipulation is not so difficulty but does require some specialized equipment (which is pretty easy to make yourself if you are the least bit handy). A couple of years back I had a hive with a similar problem (ie very small population with a very late fall queen)... you take a double screen and place this on the top of a reasonable populated hive (not booming but also not weak either) and then place the weak hive on top of the double screen < this then immediately adds heat to the top box via the larger population below < the top box will still need it's own entrance which I most often point in the opposite direction from the bottom entrance of the lower hive... this really seems to help when you divide the two hive a bit later on. after several days when the smell of the two boxes becomes the same you then replace the double screen with a queen excluder... often time I also add a feeder to the top box which also gets the bees below to moving upward. after some time has passed (a week or so) you can then divide the two units. at this time some population from the lower box should have substantially boost the population of the upper box.

Jen · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2014, 12:26:21 pm »

Apis and Tec- We have winter patties on his hive now. It will help some but I don't know if it will bring them thru. My friend hasn't had any hives for maybe 30+ years. He's old school and very resistant to helping his hive. They will either make it or not. I'm surprised he allowed me to put in a winter pattie.

Tec- I like this idea of the double screen. However, my friend's hive is in a single deep, and I don't have an extra hive to loan for this purpose. So there is another strike against his hive.

His bees are a swarm from my hive. Don't think he'll be getting another swarm from me...