Queen cells and splits

[SmokeyBee]

Hello, another newbie question.

One of my hives is particularly strong going into winter and I want to do a walk away split in the spring. I've read up on the various methods of doing this. I just needed to confirm one point that I can't find an answer to...

Can I start a new colony with brood, eggs, honey and pollen but no queen cells? Can the nurse bees in the new colony make a Queen cell and then move an egg into it or does the queen from the original colony have to lay the egg in the cell after the workers make it?

I guess I'm asking, what comes first, the egg or the queen cup?

[apisbees]

neither. the bees will shorten a cell with an young larva and feed copious amounts of royal jelly and float the larva into a vertical position in the queen cell that they build down from the cell the larva is in. they will remove the larva from the few cells below the queen cell so they do not interfere with the queen cell

[SmokeyBee]

Thanks very much. Should be interesting to watch!

[neillsayers]

FWIW,

I have had better luck with a walkaway letting them start new cells than introducing a capped cell.

[tedh]

That's interesting Neil.  Josh and I started new colonies with swarm cells last spring and each of those colonies superseded the swarm cell queen immediately after they started to lay.  We haven't had great success introducing mated queens either, better than with swarm cells but not great. We're going to let each split start their own queen next spring and see how well that works. 

Best of luck to you Smokey!

[neillsayers]

Sorry Ted,

I wasn't clear. 3 possibilities:
1. make w/a split with swarm cell.
2. make w/a split and add ripe queen cell
3. make w/a split and let them raise a queen from frame of eggs.                                         

#3 has been the most reliable in my very small operation.

[SmokeyBee]

Sorry Ted,

I wasn't clear. 3 possibilities:
1. make w/a split with swarm cell.
2. make w/a split and add ripe queen cell
3. make w/a split and let them raise a queen from frame of eggs.                                         

#3 has been the most reliable in my very small operation.

Good to hear this; #3 is what I want to do to make my small operation "less small". I'm trying my hand at trapping a swarm as well.

[tedh]

Okay.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  Our results where very similar to yours Neil.   Next year we are going to use option 3 to see what our success rate is with letting each split raise their own queen.  Sorry for the confusion.  Ted

[Lburou]

1-3 will all work, but at a cost (delay) to the development of the hive.  #3 delays population growth for 30 days.  Your goal as a beekeeper is to have an optimum population count just before honey flows in your area. 

Using #3 you will likely miss robust growth with the first honey flow.  1 &  2 wastes ten less days than #1, that is good.  An introduced queen can start laying right after she is released.  Read up on a 'push-in' cage for introducing queens, it is the best method when it works. 

One way to get a queen with less handicap to the hive is to break out a small NUC.  If you have swarm cells for that NUC, all the better.  Swarms cells will likely produce well nourished queens, better than those from a walk away split. Well nourished queens, from larva chosen by the bees will be better queens in the long run.    JMO   

P.S.  You will do well to prepare a bait hive to lure a swarm into your bee hive.  Those bees come with a queen, are free and preprogrammed to go like crazy. 

[SmokeyBee]

I agree (based solely on my reading).

I wanted three more hives for next year so I'm starting a new one from a purchased nuc, the walkaway split and the swarm trap. The split I already plan for being behind and not being a producer next year. Actually, its possible that I won't get honey from any of them and I'll count it as a growth year.

[Lburou]

...I'm starting a new one(s) from a purchased nuc, the walkaway split and the swarm trap...

That will be a fun process.  Be sure to feed them and take measures against robbing until they are strong enough to repel robbing bees and wasps.  However it unfolds, weather will be a big factor...and you can depend on different conditions and outcomes the next year.  Be sure to keep us in the loop so we can enjoy your process to make increase in S.C..