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Offline barry42001

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Supersedure cells
« on: April 11, 2014, 04:46:14 pm »
why all this has not been a problem for me this year..yet! it seems and I see a trend throughout the different threads, the colonies or superseding with great regularity, far more than simply an aging queen. I don't know how common of a occurrence it is, but it seems far more common than one would think it should be for relatively young queen...

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Offline iddee

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 04:58:43 pm »
Whether it be a nuc or a package, queen supercedure seems to be rampant with introduced queens for the last few years.
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Offline Perry

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 05:08:14 pm »
 :yes: :yes: :yes:
So much so, the Association up here is trying to do a study on the topic, particularly in relation to the imported queens we have been getting.
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Offline Woody Roberts

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 06:02:34 pm »
I've always thought this was a problem with mass produced queens but last year I had several supersedures that I didn't think I should have had.

At one time last year I had one queen right hive. Six that were in various stages of supersedure. All seven survived the winter and are doing good.

Hopeing I don't get a repeat of last year!
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 06:11:21 pm »
I'm going to go out on a limb here again...   No saws allowed!

   I have asked this exact question, and the replies I have gotten claim that dropping a frame of brood in the new hive when you install the package will mostly do away with the supersedure..

   Because there is less of a decline between old bees dying and new brood being produced?
   I don't know the answer to that, but am going to give it a try this year.

   I have also read that most swarms supercede the queen not long after swarming. She gets them established in their new home, and then they replace her. Does this have an effect on a new young queen with good pheromone?
  Doing an AS before they begin to get the desire to swarm seems to bypass this tendancy, but I will be paying close attention to swarms I catch this year and see what happens with the original queen.
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Offline Perry

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 06:13:11 pm »
Not sure about packages Scott. Most of my problems came putting new queens into nucs.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 06:19:16 pm »
Quote from: Perry on April 11, 2014, 06:13:11 pm
Not sure about packages Scott. Most of my problems came putting new queens into nucs.

   dang.. well, going to find out for myself in a couple more weeks then. Ten nuc's I have to go pick up and queens coming to make my splits from. Splits with new queens in the past haven't seemed to have any problems, but wondering if the two or three I had that didn't build up very fast superseded.....
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Offline Perry

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 06:49:06 pm »
I've got 20 queens ordered for the first and second week of May. I hope they're better than last year. At $32 a pop it's hard to swallow when they don't get accepted or are immediately superceded.
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 08:11:03 pm »
I have heard the theory that because of being caged etc., the queen is not laying; her pheremones are not up to full strength and there is also no fresh brood pheremone so the bees equate that to the queen being a slacker and start replacement action. A stint of cold weather can apparently put some queens off lay and induce similar condition. I ordered some of the queen pheremone strips from Mann Lake but have not had the need to try them. To my nose they stink but then so does a queen! Whether or not the strips have any effect, I dont know.  I have had cells started and then torn down and not really known why. Rumor is these bees are some mix of russian and carni.

Frank
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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 08:15:48 pm »
Quote from: Crofter on April 11, 2014, 08:11:03 pm
I ordered some of the queen pheremone strips from Mann Lake but have not had the need to try them. To my nose they stink but then so does a queen! Whether or not the strips have any effect, I dont know.
Frank

I didn't know there was such a thing.  I wonder if you could use those in a worker laying hive before introducing a queen?
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Offline barry42001

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 08:26:17 pm »
it is the lack of those pheromones, that trigger laying workers

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Offline Crofter

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 08:42:01 pm »
Here is the promo on the product. Dont know whether it would have any effect on laying workers; I have never had the fun of dealing with laying workers. My son has wasted enough added brood usually to stock another nuc before getting them queen right. He doesn't bother anymore since the workers are all near their expiry date anyway by this time.

Pseudo Queen with QMP (Queen Mandibular Pheromone)

Improve Queen Rearing Success - Pseudo Queen (simulates an egg laying queen) used in queen mating nuclei in early spring can maintain significantly higher bee numbers than in non-treated nucs. Insert one Pseudo Queen in each mating nuclei when it is established or when the queen cell is inserted.

Ship Queenless Packages - Pseudo Queen calms bees shipped in queenless packages. Place Pseudo Queen lure in the hive as if it were a queen cage.

Temporary Queen Replacement - A hive will perform normally for several days with a Pseudo Queen as a temporary queen. Remove the queen or queen cells and place a Pseudo Queen lure in each brood box. When a queen is available, the Pseudo Queen is removed and a new queen introduced.


Frank
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Offline barry42001

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 12:15:19 am »
that's why I'm kind of liking that push in cage, that would have the Queen starting to lay eggs before she was ever released out of it, is provided with about a 4 inch by 4 inch area, not a lot but something lol

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Offline apisbees

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 10:42:00 am »
Perry where are you getting your queens from? and where did they come from last year?
The first issue in queen supersedure in packages and nucs is that it is always a push to get them produced and to the customer early in the season so they have a longer time to build up. It doesn't take very much bad weather, to windy, to cold, rain, or the fact that the queens are being raised in a small matting nuc that doesn't have the population to warm the mating nuc to promote early bee flight. Any of these factors can effect whether a queen is mated well with mutable drones or mated poorly. In the 80's before mites, the queen failure rate could very from one year to the next and these queen were coming out of California, one of the best areas for the raising of queens. Fast forward 30 years , the weather is more unpredictable than ever, a lot of the original proven breeder stock has been lost to bee colony die outs and we are treating and manipulating colonies to control the mites and viruses in the hives.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 01:39:30 pm »
Crofter ""To my nose they stink but then so does a queen! ""

This is a really good thread, will be reading it again.

I do think I know the scent of the pheremone. With catching the swarms this year and taking peeks into the hive box that the swarms were in for a couple of days, I definately detected the parfum ~

To me it didn't stink, but it was certainly pungent
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Offline Perry

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 04:16:19 pm »
Hey Apis. I got my queens from Hawaii last year (I will this year as well) from 2 different producers. I could have gotten in on some queens from California this year (just allowed) but decided against it for a couple reasons. I want to see what they are like first (have read a thing or two), and when introducing you have to kill the attendants (curious to see how many actually do it).
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2014, 09:26:06 pm »
Why would you have to kill the attendants?
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Offline Perry

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2014, 08:20:25 am »
California has tracheal mites and we don't (yet). This was one of the factors in allowing queens to come in from Cali was that all attendants must be destroyed.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2014, 11:53:40 am »
That makes sense! I wouldn't want to spread trach mites anywhere. That's one of the reasons why I like formic acid and ox acid, it gets rid of trach mites as well.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Supersedure cells
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2014, 12:56:31 pm »
Quote from: Perry on April 13, 2014, 08:20:25 am
California has tracheal mites and we don't (yet). This was one of the factors in allowing queens to come in from Cali was that all attendants must be destroyed.

   and... the queen wont have them?   Seems rather odd to allow in the queen but her attendants must die... lowering the odds??
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