Author Topic: Well, THAT didn't work . . .  (Read 4497 times)

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Offline ablanton

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Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« on: April 22, 2014, 11:05:28 pm »
Ok, so somebody help me figure out where I screwed up.  I'm having trouble figuring out the math on this one, as well.  Forgive the book . . .

I tried the method of pulling the queen to prevent swarming.  I pulled her and four frames from a 20-frame double-deep hive on March 31.  I busted the remaining 16 frames down to two 8-frame boxes because my back is getting too old for 10-frame deep boxes.  :P  There were three or four frames of un-drawn foundation remaining from a frame switch last fall.  Now, one thing to note is that I am certain there were no swarm cells or supercedure cells on March 31.  I started going through the hive frame by frame.  I pulled a couple of honey frames and  couple of brood frames and moved them over to another box about 15 feet away.  I started going through the remaining frames looking for the queen.  I went through the whole hive frame by frame searching and could not find her.  I went back through a second time frame by frame searching and did not find her.  I studied every inch of 16 frames.  No queen cells, and I couldn't find the queen.  Now I've been in this hive probably close to 45 minutes and the bees are getting pretty agitated.  They are so loud and agitated that I'm thinking "I had to have missed her on one of the frames that I pulled for the split."  I walk 15 feet over to the other box and they are all calm as can be, so I'm certain she's got to be on one of those frames.  I start looking them over again and, sure enough, I find her.  All is well, me thinks.  I close the split up, put the main hive back together, throw a super of 8 medium foundations on top of the two deeps, and I'm on my way happy as a lark.

April 21, the wife calls me at work: 
"You've got a swarm of bees up a tree, but you aren't going to be able to get them.  They are too high."
"What???", says I.  "No way!  I only had two hives at the home yard strong enough to swarm and I pulled the queen from both of 'em!"
"Well, you got bees up a tree . . ."

I head home to check it out and, sure enough, a nice swarm about 40 feet up the tree.  I'm thinking, "How did this happen?  Are they really my bees?"  I put five different boxes with drawn comb around the yard hoping they will find one and move in.  No luck.  I get home from work that evening and they are gone.

So today, at lunch, I have time to check out the "suspect" hive.  It was the strongest of the four at the home yard, so I'm thinking if one swarmed it had to be this one.  Open it up and it is slam-full of swarm cells.  Some hatched, some not.  I heard piping, but never did see a queen.  I pulled one frame of un-hatched swarm cells and made another split, and left one frame of cells in case I'm mistaken about the piping.

Now, here is my confusion . . .

1)  If I pulled the queen, and they still had frames with room for expansion, why'd they make swarm cells?
2)  I guess they could have already made up their mind to swarm the very day that I did the split, but the math doesn't add up.  If I pulled the queen on March 31, how do I still have un-hatched swarm cells on April 22?  Now, lest you think there was a second queen that I missed on March 31, a few more facts . . .  this hive has no eggs, no open brood, and very little capped brood.  There's been no laying queen in there since March 31.  Oh, and the three or four deep frames of foundation from March 31 are drawn and packed with pollen & nectar, and 6 of the 8 medium frames of the super that I added on March 31 are drawn and full of nectar.

Somebody educate me.
Andy

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 11:42:58 pm »
  Unless you look in every one of the thousands of open cells it is really really hard to guarantee they had no eggs in at least a few of those cells. 16 days for a new queen to emerge, a few days to harden and possibly even mate. The timing is almost too perfect.
 You also cant guarantee a young queen didnt take note of a queenless hive and decide to take up residence. I have heard horror stories of finisher colonies loosing dozens of capped queen cells to an errant virgin choosing the wrong hive.
   Best I can come up with Ablanton, maybe one of the others can come upwith something more convincing..
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Offline apisbees

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 11:43:36 pm »
the Dynamics of the hive has changed since you moved them into the 8 frame box. Although you added extra space and combs of foundation, you have had a massive hatch of brood probably an extra 10 frames of bees worth. With less brood to raise and feed the bees quickly drew and filled the cells with pollen and nectar. bees can make queens out of 3 or 4 day old larva although they are an inferior queen and tend to get superseded fairly quickly. and the bees can continue to build cells until the have neither eggs or young brood but you can have a 6 day spread in cell age if a hive goes queen less and even a greater spread if the queen is still laying.
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Offline Perry

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 06:51:00 am »
I have been "told" that colonies can make up their mind(s) to swarm a week or two before they even display any obvious sign. They can have scout reports brought back by foragers. Apparently some swarm traps have been known to be "guarded" as favourite possible future homes. I don't read enough.  :-[
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 09:14:54 am »
You have to remember they kill all the men in the fall and all that are left are women, some old and some young ones. The old women teach the young ones how they do things in the winter and there are no men to teach them, so they just go on shopping sprees. :laugh: Jack

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 09:19:45 am »
well, with Jacks explination everything makes more sense!!

  from now on I will whisper as I pass each hive...     through my megaphone..   SWARM! SWARM PLEASE!!!
      I'll never have another swarm!!!    ;D
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Offline Riverrat

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 10:40:40 am »
Just a thought and long shot. Possible a 2nd queen you missed. By the time they swarmed they had shut the queen down from laying.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 11:11:17 am »
Ablanton~ You have my most sincere sympathy ~ don't hang your jammies too far away  ;)
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Offline Jen

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Re: Well, THAT didn't work . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 11:12:58 am »
Jack- ""You have to remember they kill all the men in the fall and all that are left are women, some old and some young ones. The old women teach the young ones how they do things in the winter and there are no men to teach them, so they just go on shopping sprees""

   That made me laugh out loud! Thanks Jack  :D
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