Odd swarm behavior -what is your idea?

[Lburou]

A new beekeeper picked up a swarm and hived them without a problem in a new 8 frame deep.  I came over to see his other hives and look over his shoulder while he was working his bees.  This swarm box was roaring and no queen was sighted,  (You know, the way bees do when they don't have a queen).

Having several queen cells on hand, we placed two in the swarm hive with a pseudo queen pheromone strip.  Both cells were torn down next day.  Bees were still roaring, but somewhat less than when they were first hived.  Conclusion was they might have a virgin queen.  Bees did settle down around the fourth or fifth day after swarming.

The beekeeper left that hive alone for a few more days and then saw some eggs.  Counting back from the capping of the (nine) queen cells we found yesterday (center of the frame), a queen was laying 2-3 days after the swarm was hived.  She laid a patch of brood smaller than 6 inches by 6 inches -looks like shotgun brood pattern today.  That is all she laid.   The queen has never been sighted.  I went through the frames with him and we can't see a queen (have gone through the frames three times and looked in the hive body too). 

Questions:   Does this sound like, 1) was queen smashed?, or,  2) was she poorly mated and superseded?, or 3) we have bees with some Africanization expressed in swarmy bees -she left with a small swarm?

We'll put the bees through an excluder before we requeen to be sure there is no queen.

[Perry]

I'm stumped, I'll be interested in reading other responses.

[iddee]

1 or 2, combined with poor eyesight. 

[LazyBkpr]

Why did you put a pseudo queen pheromone strip in with the cells?
  I learned from the old timers that a queen cell was as good as a queen to the bees.  So looking to learn about this..
   As far as finding a patch of brood and no queen...   I am clueless..  Do new queens lay between mating flights or do they wait for that process to be done before settling in?

[Jen]

Remarkable question here!

Scott ""Do new queens lay between mating flights or do they wait for that process to be done before settling in?""

[blueblood]

I have discovered how hard it is to find virgin queens and yes, it takes good eyesight and patience.  Sounds like all that is needed is more time to see how that swarm develops.

Scott, my limited reading on that topic would say she is done with mating flights when she starts laying.

[Barbarian]

Recently, I've been refreshing my knowledge of using a Taranov board.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/taranovswm.html

I don't know if it would help in your search for the queen.

I usually find that when I get geared up for another "hunt the queen" session, I find her easily normally.    SOD'S LAW     

[Lburou]

Thanks for the responses everyone

Iddee, its not just the eyesight...

Lazy, we wanted to do everything we could to anchor the bees to their new home. 

This soccer ball sized swarm did not enter the swarm lure box, but just bearded below the entrance.  They roared more than I've ever heard before, were nervous on the frames, bees were almost dripping from the corner of the frames on inspection, and the beekeeper saw no queen.  Suspecting a virgin queen, it was ill advised to block the swarm in the box.

These queen cells were capped, so not sure about brood pheromones. The queen cells and pseudo queen strip were an effort to cover as many bases as we could.  If the pseudo queen could settle them enough to stay a day or two, they might stick around -it wouldn't hurt anything either way.  The pseudo queen manufacturer told me that the substance is tracked around the hive just like the queen pheromone is. 

Blueblood, it is the plan to watch them and see what happens.  We supplemented them with a good frame of bees and honey and the feeder is on.

Barbarian, Sod's law was new to me so had to look it up     But, Murphy's law is familiar to me.....and Murphy, it seems, is always walking two steps behind me. 

Last fall I had four softball sized swarms in my  apiary.  Three of them usurped mating Nucs.  I killed the queens and froze their brood when I read this is a tactic Africanized bees use to expand their territory.  Judging from my impression during the initial peek at the bees compared to the bee population during the latest search for the queen, that queen could have left with a softball sized swarm.  This swarm gave me the same feeling as the usurping swarms of last fall.  It seemed to me that this swarm could have lost a small number of bees.  If that was true, that would account for the phantom queen.

I do agree the odds are more likely she was crushed or damaged.  The new beekeeper is looking to me for a mentoring explanation.  I just want to appear enlightened about the bees. 

[LazyBkpr]

LB;
These queen cells were capped, so not sure about brood pheromones. The queen cells and pseudo queen strip were an effort to cover as many bases as we could.  If the pseudo queen could settle them enough to stay a day or two, they might stick around -it wouldn't hurt anything either way.  The pseudo queen manufacturer told me that the substance is tracked around the hive just like the queen pheromone is. 

   So if there was a virgin queen in the hive, and this stuff is put in there what happens? Does she leave? Do the bees Kill her?...   What about the cells?  If they think they have a queen.. probably a GOOD one if that stuff works as good as I have read...  would they not destroy swarm cells??
   I am not suggesting anything, I am asking. I have never used the false queen strips, but am intrigued by their potential uses.

[Lburou]

Thanks for your input on this Lazy.  The pseudoqueen strip will settle a queenless Nuc until you can find a queen or brood to introduce to them.  I've used the strips for up to 10 days and it works fine to settle queenless bees. 

My son tells me again and again that I over analyze things.  Maybe Iddee said it all in his one sentence response above. 

[LazyBkpr]

Agreed...  its fun to over analyze sometimes though.   

[Perry]

I just want to appear enlightened about the bees. 

You too?