A Tale Of Two Hives (OR Help A New Beek!!!)

[shinjak]

So I received my two nucs a little over two weeks ago. They both appeared to be equal at the time of installation. Well, it wasn't long until I noticed lots less activity on the left hive landing board, so a few days after inspection I check both boxes. The right hive is bursting with bees, has capped brood, nectar, and they are drawing out comb. The left hive has capped brood, not as many bees, nectar, and swarm cells. I checked the right hive earlier in the week, and it was packed with nectar, still bursting with bees, no capped brood, no larvae (I haven't gotten good at spotting eggs yet), and they were drawing out the remaining five frames. I checked the left hive today, and there are maybe enough bees to cover three frames, still swarm cells, some nectar and pollen, but very little capped brood.

I have lots of ideas running through my head on what to do, but it is all a little confusing. From my very limited experience and research, I have one honey bound hive working furiously to make room for the queen to lay, and one hive that could possibly be queenless or with a poorly performing queen. Here are some option I have been weighing:

1. Add a deep box to the strong hive. Move some of the nectar frames to the top deep and add more frames to bottom deep.
2. For the weak hive, take the frame with queen cells and put into a nuc. Add honey frame from other hive for stores. Shake some bees from other hive into nuc. Very little brood available in either hive. Is there enough brood for the split to "take"?
3. Combine the two hives? I really would like to keep at least two hives going.
4. Put weak colony back into nuc until they build up in numbers and reserves. Let them focus on raising brood instead of making wax (?).

I appreciate any and all opinions. Thanks for your help in advance.

(Late addition: Is it too late to contact the supplier and inquire about a replacement queen?)

[blueblood]

Much to process there.  I would head back out, relax and make sure your back is to the sun.  Pulled the frames out and really look closely in the cells for eggs.  Finding the queen would be nice too.  Look for her movement before looking for her shape to find her quickly.  Chances are, if you have looked at one side of the frame too long, she has already skirted to the other side.

Maybe you could share a frame and a little bees from stronger to the weaker but be careful not to transfer the queen.  I had the same thing happen to me the first year with packages.  I ended up combining them later in the summer.  If you can find a swarm locally, that would be awesome to boost your hives.

[Garden Hive]

I don't have enough info here.....

But very young nuc's and packed with nectar, busting with bees, doesn't really correlate to no capped brood, no larvae or eggs.
Yet you say they are drawing out more comb. You say 1 Honey Bound Hive.... swarm cells...not descriptive enough.
You're not far from me, we have had a very good flow. Feed not likely a big help now.
The front porch gives good indication of what's happening inside. You should see a lot of pollen on the girls landing.

So you give the hive that is still drawing comb and busting with bees more space with your next box of foundation on top.
The other you let be until they draw out 80-90 percent of the frames in their first box then give them another.

Next inspection, which with the info provided would be very soon....to be sure there is brood, larvae of varying stages. You don't have to see the eggs. Hopefully you find better evidence... add the boxes as indicated above....then Be Patient !

But if there truely is no capped brood and larvae then we do something different.

You can PM me and we'll see if I can come up and take a look in them with you if you need a hand.  Tim

[shinjak]

Thanks for the advice guys, and for the generous offer Tim. I apologize for the flood of info, I sometimes have diarrhea of the keyboard. I actually did another inspection today. More bees in weak hive, but no capped brood, no larva, no eggs (that we could see anyway). There actually is some pollen, lots of nectar, and some capped honey. I did add a frame of bees from the strong hive. If I had a source of capped brood, would that do anything for this hive? I will wait a few more days for the next inspection. I may have to tag my local bee guru for some help spotting the queens and eggs. 

On a more positive note, I got my wife to put on the bee suit today and help me look for eggs and the queen. I think she may want her own suit and hive next!

[Garden Hive]

Sent you a PM

[LazyBkpr]

Should be capped brood by now. At the very least white larvae you can see in the cells.  I there are queen cells there WAS a queen... is there still a queen? With so few bees I would take the time to find her, or verify she is not there.
   A frame of brood would be good, if they have enough bees to cover that brood. Leaving the frame covered with bees would be better.
   If the strong hive is getting bound, make sure your not still feeding.  The very first Hives I got plugged themselves up with syrup and would have perished if I had not stopped feeding.  GOOD flows going on in most places, so stop feeding if you are at least for a few days. Let them use up some of what they have stored and give the queen room. They will continue to draw...   Next inspection, if they have begun using up their stores you can feed a little more.
   Iddee suggested I poke fewer holes in my jar lids.. it will cause them to take the syrup a little slower, and I freely admit it was a stroke of genius.  They ARE taking the syrup slower. They went from taking a quart a day to taking a quart every three to four days.  Slowing them down so they are building new comb with what I feed rather than plugging out the comb they do have.

[shinjak]

Ok, I had a beek with more experience than me come by and check for queens or signs of a queen. He didn't find any in either hive. So he called the local bee guru whose first piece of advice was..... be patient. But do you know how hard that is!!

He next asked about liquid in the center frames, suggesting this was indicative of the workers preparing for the queen to lay. He said young or newly mated queens can be slow to begin laying. From what I gathered after the third week was the time to begin worrying. But it really would be reassuring to have spotted the queen! The guy who inspected  the hives with me today felt the hives weren't queenless because of their overall activity and demeanor.

So I am going to sit back, relax, have an adult beverage, and worry about it until Thursday (when I check the hive again).

If the strong hive is getting bound, make sure your not still feeding.

Thanks Lazy, apparently we are in the middle of the mother of honey flows so I haven't fed anything from the start. Some local beeks are adding their fourth super already!

On another note, I have really been shown the generosity of beekeepers today. I think I have finally found the right hobby!

[Garden Hive]

I'm not with the concept of being patient with your "New Nuc's" ! That would have been advice if there were queens and progressing well.
You should not have any break in the brood. You bought what was supposed to be a proven laying queen and all of "her" brood. Not a split with a virgin queen. Unless you were told different. So if it were me, I would be contacting the supplier to get replacement queens. Don't know if you got them local, but contact the supplier and explain to them what is going on. They may be quick to help. Let us know.............

[shinjak]

Thanks Garden, you answered the question I've had in the back of my mind all along which was "do most people sell new splits as nucs?". I'm thinking that is what I have. Dealing with the supplier was an odd situation (and a long story for another time), but from what I gathered he "put together" the nucs (as in boxes & bees) a few days before I picked them up. This may be common practice, but it's apparently not working for me. I will contact him today and see what he says.

[Zweefer]

Any luck shinjak?

[shinjak]

Yes zweefer and thanks for asking. I finally got in contact with the supplier and he is offering me two replacement queens. But he won't have them until Wednesday! I just hope it's not too liitle too late. A friend of mine has offered me frames of brood though in exchange for honey frames.

 I was planning on getting back in the hives today to check again for queen activity. But I hurt my ankle at work yesterday and had to visit the ER. But I may hobble down there anyway. I will keep you posted.

[shinjak]

Color me excited! Spotted a queen in both hives and spotted small patches of eggs. The queen in the weak hive was a beautiful dark color with dark stripes.  This made her doubly hard to spot in a hive full of dark bees with dark stripes! She was big and healthy looking. The queen in the stronger hive was lighter colored with black stripes. Both appeared to have only started laying in the last few days as their was only a small patch of eggs on one frame in each hive. I also noticed an egg inside of a queen cell, so not sure what the future holds there.

It does stink that the hives are going to be about six weeks behind what I anticipated. It stinks more that they will just be cranking up when the honey flow starts winding down. Thanks for everyone's input and concern, I look forward to hearing any other opinion you may have.

[riverbee]

happy for you shinjack that the supplier was willing to work with you, and should have, and it does stink, just my HO.  if you spotted queens, and they are laying not sure if i would replace them at this point.  give them a little more time.

"Dealing with the supplier was an odd situation (and a long story for another time) but from what I gathered he "put together" the nucs (as in boxes & bees) a few days before I picked them up. This may be common practice, but it's apparently not working for me."

odd situation? well my antennae goes up when i read something like this, why was it odd? if you would like to share that information.
nucs... it's becoming more and more common practice to sell bees this way for profit, and to be honest, i don't like it for new unsuspecting beekeepers not knowing what they are getting, paying for, and for the most part, suppliers are not going to tell you what you are getting unless you ask, and most new beeks do not know to ask, or perhaps do not understand the dynamics.  most think they get a 'mini hive' with a laying queen, ready to go, when in fact they do not.  the bees you received are nothing but a divide from a hive or 2 with an unrelated queen introduced into the nuc.  this is similar to hiving packaged bees with an unrelated queen.  if that's what you know you are purchasing and that's what you want great.   

personally, i would not sell anyone a nuc without a proven laying queen, 3 frames brood covered in bees, and 2 frames pollen and honey.  in my HO, that's the real thing. 

keep us posted on the progress, if you can post a pic or two, it really does help us to help you!

[shinjak]

You are exactly right river. I did think I was getting a mini hive that would be ready to kick into high gear when the honey flow started. But in reality I paid a premium price for frames of brood, drawn comb, honey, and a box. On the plus side, I did get enough bees and brood to have plenty of bees to survive three weeks of being queen less. Hopefully that's the story in three more weeks when the current eggs are "hatching".

Does anybody sell overwintered nucs? I WOULD be willing to pay a  premium price for that.

[riverbee]

in your area shinjack i wouldn't know, perhaps start a thread and ask, iddee might know, and we have a number of members from north carolina.  another option is to purchase a nuc made up in the spring and has a laying queen and is well established before being sold.

the nucs i purchase are from an rhba member, they have not been overwintered (this really is ideal) but the nucs are made up early in the season and queened and are not sold until well after the queen is laying and the nuc established.  i pick these up in mid to late june.