Can I assume they have swarmed already?

[Yankee11]

Went out to check hives that are sitting on beans and cotton .One hive I found 2 frames with swarm cells along the bottom. I could not find queen. Lots and lots of bees. So I removed the 2 frames with the swarm cells and started nucs. I also removed a couple frames of brood and food.

That was about 4 days ago. I go back and check on it and I find about 3 different frames with emergency cells pulled out now. In the middle, top etc.

So, what this is telling me is telling me is that queen has already left, correct.

If so, I guess I have to decide to tear down all the queen cells but 2 or 3 and let them be, or dismantle the and make 3 more nucs to over winter.

[Jen]

Hi Yankee    This will be interesting because when I was going thru my swarm episode there was controversy over leaving all the queen cells intact, as opposed to gleaning all but one or two at the most.

Idde's thoughts were "How do we know which cells to remove? Wouldn't the bees know that answer the best?"

He has a definate point there...  and I don't have a perfect answer for ya either Yankee! I'll be staying tuned 

[LazyBkpr]

I would say that they did swarm.

  Considerations...
   Leave all the cells and risk casts?
   Leave all the cells and hope they fight it out or the first emerged kills the rest?
   Remove all but two cells and risk deleting the best?
   Remove all but two cells and still have one cast swarm?
   
   I understand ALL the options, and the reasons for letting the bees get on with it without bothering them. I still prefer to choose the best two cells and remove the rest. How do I choose the best?  I guess I have to say I pick the largest most well formed cells.    For me, its about the odds..  Leave only one cell and find out it was not viable... I Leave two and take the chance to insure ONE of them emerges.   I believe Mel Disselkoen also recommends leaving two if you watch his OTS video.   The "odds" are that if both emerge one will die.  The Risk is reduced and the odds improved...
   I had an experience like Jen.. splitting down a hive making four nucs from it, leaving ONE cell..  All that was left was a single box with enough bees... basically a STRONG nuc...   That queen emerged, the bees swarmed.   Leaving me with about two frames of bees that were then hopelessly queenless..   I put one of the nucs back in the hive with the bees that remained, but it just goes to show the lengths bees will sometimes go to JUST to prove your NOT the boss of them...   Kind of like being married?

[Jen]

Scott- "but it just goes to show the lengths bees will sometimes go to JUST to prove your NOT the boss of them...   Kind of like being married?"

Snarking    don't I know it!

   When I was requeening one of my hives, I had to make sure that there were asolutely no queen cells present in the hive before setting the queen cage in. It took me four hours to gleen 29 live queen cells out of that hive. I'm sure glad I didn't have to pick two cells from that mess Ugh!

 

   

[Yankee11]

Well I have already removed 2 frames with swarm cells and started 2 nucs.

I could start 3 more nucs now with what they have pulled in the last  4 days. I am leaning on this and just trying to overwinter the nucs for spring sales. I doubt they are going to make much honey and I have 15 other huge hives sitting on beans and cotton for honey.

If I leave them I am worried about them casting other swarms, then I get nothing from it. Might as well start 5 nucs.

Roll of the dice at this point, i guess.

I hate loosing queens...

[Jen]

I hate cast swarms 

[brooksbeefarm]

Yankee 11, if you want more hives that's what i would do. This late in the season there not going to make much or any surplus honey any way. If and when the new queens take over the nucs you can pick the best ones kill the weak queens and combine there work force with a strong nuc feed if they need it and have some strong hives going into spring. Other wise the mother hive could swarm leaving the hive weak and end up losing the hive. I agree with Laxy. Jack

[iddee]

How many have had cast swarms from emergency cells? I haven't.

[LazyBkpr]

I have, when the emergency cells were started because I removed swarm cells.. you could probably talk to Jaybird too..   

[Jen]

With all due respect Mr. Wizard, on March 26th this year, my one and only double deep hive swarmed, that would be the primary swarm. The primary swarm was hived. One week after that the primary swarm threw a cast swarm. Five weeks later that cast swarm threw 8 more cast swarms. It was NUTS around here ~

[iddee]

Sounds like cast swarms from swarm cells. I asked about swarms from emergency cells. There is a difference.

[barry42001]

Jen,
      Those after swarms were from swarm cells not supersedure cells, as you have seen there may be a dozen or more swarm cells but seldom are there more then a handful of emergency Queen cells.

[LazyBkpr]

OK, that point is well made now that I think about it (have time to think about it) They just kept rebuilding swarm cells not emergency cells...   Even her swarm built swarm cells...

    Mine swarmed with ONE swarm cell after being split into multiple pieces, not an emergency cell.. I concede to the master...  again.. 

[Jen]

Siiigh, okay... I'm going to ask this knowing i'm going to get the look of "Uh oh, she doesn't understand, this is going to take awhile"

     To date, I know that most of the time swarm cells (not cups) are along the bottom of the frames. Supercedure cells are generally in the middle of the frames. I wouldn't know how to identify an emergency cell.

My bees just went crazy this spring until I re-queened. The day before I requeened one of the hives, I spent 4 hours removing 29 live queen cells from that hive. There were cells EveryWhere! on the bottom, on the top, in the middle, and stuffed into nooks and crannies.

How can you tell is it's an emergency cell? And how do you know for sure Iddee if you haven't had a swarm from an emergency cell?

[Yankee11]

Ok hold on now,

So are you saying they were in swarm mode. Cells all along bottom of frame. I removed those 2 frames. So at that point there were no more queen cells and apparently no queen.

Now they are in emergency mode and have drawn queen cells from whatever eggs or larva were available to them.

So, you are saying I have moved them from swarm mode to emergency mode, and they won't cast swarms from this mode. If so, I may rethink what I want to do, because there is still plenty of bees to make honey. They have about another month and a half of soybeans yet to bloom. And may make a lot of Honey if they don't have brood to feed.

This is some great info here.

[pistolpete]

Jen:  swarm cells and supercedure cells are built from queen cups that the queen has laid an egg in.  Purpose built from the ground up.  A queen cup points straight down and gets drawn in to a nice big vertically oriented queen cell.    Emergency cells get built from regular worker cells that contain a 1 day old larva.  Emergency cells are often a bit smaller in appearance and banana shaped, though the interior volume is the same.    It gets a bit confusing because emergency cells can end up casting swarms in some cases. 

[Jen]

Pete- "It gets a bit confusing because emergency cells can end up casting swarms in some cases. 

     And there ya have it! Thanks Pete 

      Now, I have seen the emergency banana shaped cells, and I've seen them on the same frame as supercedure and swarm cells as well. Guess that's why I never new which kind of cells caused all the swarming in March.

      Thanks for taking the time to explain 

     

[barry42001]

I differ I did make a mistake in calling supersedure cell a emergency Queen cell, and the distinction was well stated by pistolpete. .