Organic Honey?

[tedh]

I saw a sign offering organic honey for sale, my curiosity roused, I started looking into it.  I quickly became confused.  It seems that the USDA has no set standards/regulations concerning organic honey, and maybe honey in general.  As I said, it's kind of confusing.  Seems that the USDA, themselves, do not actually do ANY certifying of organic products, they only set the standards/regulations.  A "third party" do the inspections and certifying.  Apparently the bees can be certified under the live stock regs., and the "farmer/producer" can be certified organic, by the practices they employ, but, how can you have "organic honey" in an agricultural area like the one I live in?  Furthermore, a product being labeled as Certified Organic doesn't necessarily mean "chemical free".  Which in itself goes against what I, and presumably, many others believe!  Certified Organic simply means that the product contains less than the acceptable amount of permitted chemicals.  I'll be the first to admit that my interpretation of what I read may be WAY off, so please feel free to correct me and clarify the situation.  But, the USDA, the regs or lack thereof, the certifying process and all other things aside, how can honey be certified as organic when the bees will travel in a two mile radius as a matter of course and further during times of dearth or over competition for resources? It seems to me that calling my honey "organic" would be a bit deceptive if not down right unethical given the view that certainly I, and perhaps most people have of what "organic" means.  Perhaps it's a matter of "let the buyer beware".  I truly hope I'm incorrect in this so please straighten me out, but it sounds like a heck of a misleading mess.  Ted

[brooksbeefarm]

Saying the word Organic anymore is like waving a red flag in front of a mean Bull. Jack

[tedh]

Oooops.  Ted

[tedh]

If I could delete this topic I think I would.  Giving it further thought and in light of brooksbeefarm's post I can see how this could be a source of contention.  I meant no disrespect to anyone or there personal views.  If any offense was taken please accept my apologies because I do apologize.  Ted

[Perry]

Naww Ted, no reason to delete.
Organic is another one of those words that means many things to many people. Take honey that has been labelled "all natural". Is there any other kind?
This spring we had an organic beekeeper in Cape Breton looking to buy 30 nucs. There was no way I could meet my commitments and those 30 so I passed. The deal was going to be: He would buy 30 nucs in spring and then return all of your frames and comb in the fall. I am still trying to figure out how simply transferring the bees from one persons equipment to another persons makes them now "organic".
When we now buy vegetables we pass on the "organic" simply because of the price, but we do look for "spray free" or "pesticide free" stuff, and we figure that's good enough for us.

[iddee]

Are you kidding? If we deleted this one, we would have to find all the ones about queen excluders and delete those. Then all the ones concerning ventilation and delete those. Threads like this is how we learn what other people are doing and thinking. Keep them coming, they are educational.

[LazyBkpr]

Are you kidding? If we deleted this one, we would have to find all the ones about queen excluders and delete those. Then all the ones concerning ventilation and delete those. Threads like this is how we learn what other people are doing and thinking. Keep them coming, they are educational.

   LOL  Very true!

   I have read a bit about organic honey......   I personally find it hard to insure that my bees only collect nectar from Organic plants, and they have revolted when I attempted to make them stay within the confines of the "organic" fields...
   With bees that can reportedly travel three miles with a good flow, and up to seven miles when theres is a eak flow, or no flow, I honestly think that it is not possible to have truly "organic" honey....

   Other interpretations are not about what the ladies collect, but more about how they are kept/raised/treated etc....     Testing on the honey?  It could reveal insecticides, fungicides, herbicides etc, JUST from the neighbors garden, much less the entire area a hungry bee will cover in its search...
    So as I understand it, having no established guidelines, the one Ted mentioned are used, but they leave a lot to be desired depending on your personal idea of "organic".
    "I'm with Ted!"

[iddee]

My idea is, If it's meat or vegetable, it's organic. If it's mineral, metal, chemical, etc., it's non-organic. That's what I was taught in school. Therefore, all natural foods are organic.

[G3farms]

I had a brief conversation with a fella that is selling "organic" honey. I asked the same questions as above since I know where he keeps his hives. They are located very near (with in flying distance) soybean, corn and canola fields that are heavily sprayed, and extra close the the University of Tennessee ag fields which are testing grounds for all sorts of sprays. He just kept uttering out that his bees were treatment free and could not help where they flew to.

Ted I will stand along side of you for sure on this issue.

To me it is a joke to get certified, meaning it is sort of on the honor system.

[tedh]

Okay.  I don't want to nit pick anyone's practices, philosophies or marketing strategies but would like to hear from any organic beekeepers or sellers of organic honey.  Not to argue but to try to understand what is meant by "certified organic honey" and to find how the certifying process worked for them.  Ted

Just on a side note, marketing honey as organic would be a great platform for honey sales in certain areas.

[brooksbeefarm]

Hey tedh, i said what i said from what i seen on other forums, there would have been fist fights if they were together. This forum has a different bunch of members from what i've seen on other forums. A couple of years ago at a festival a beekeeper was selling honey as pure clover honey,? i ask how he knew that his honey was pure clover honey? he said because it's so light i can see through it. i just smiled and left, didn't want to start anything. I have also seen people at farmers markets get into arguments over the word organic, myself for one , a customer ask me if my cucumbers were organic and i said i guess you could say that, i didn't have to spray them this year. I was selling them 3 for a dollar, another vendor who was selling organic vegetables and his cucumbers were $1.00 ec. came to my booth  and ask why i was selling my cucumbers as organic at 3 for a dollar, he was hot under the collar and i was getting that way trying to explain what happened. He went to the market manager, and she came and told me she didn't have a answer, that if i didn't use any chemicals on my cucumbers they were organic to her. I told her not to worry that i wouldn't say the word organic any more. Jack

[tedh]

Yeah brooks, I kind of lost intrest in "organically grown" years ago when the only thing I added to my veggie beds was horse manure.  I was told that since we vaccinated our horses the manure wasn't organic! Ah well.  Back to the topic.  Ted

[Riverrat]

If memory serves me right the only one I knew of that had actual certified organic honey was Dee Lusby she lived in I believe a mountainous remote area of Arizona.  Now keep in mind most commercial honey is produced in the  remote areas of the upper Midwest North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana etc.  I would venture to guess most of that could be sold as certified organic but the producers in that region are not interested in going to all the trouble of flooding the market with honey sold on a buzz word.  just MHO.  And Ted no need to delete its an excellent topic

[pistolpete]

The topic has been around the block a few times, but that's forums for you.  I think that if you keep your bees in an area free of agriculture, it would be quite safe to call the honey organic.  For everyone else, it's complete nonsense.   My favourite case of misleading advertising is honey sold here as "Canada NO1.white".   The designation is a grade of honey and has nothing to do with where it was produced.  So you can actually label Chinese honey that way and legally sell it in the supermarkets.

[apisbees]

Pete on the container you are required to have the place of origin.
Product of Canada.
Grade: No. 1 White
Weight: in Grams or Kilograms
What it is: Honey
and now the nutritional value.
All in both French and English
if not produced in Canada then from where it was produced.

[apisbees]

I find the best defense of this topic is to educate the consumer. Give them the facts and tell them what questions to ask of the organic seller. Here are respected scientific responses to organic certification of honey.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/compound-eye/organic-honey-is-a-sweet-illusion/

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/queen-of-green/faqs/food/how-can-honey-be-organic/