Recycling comb

[Chip Euliss]

At my old job, I was frequently asked to evaluate management plans at wildlife refuges and I found that many folks followed what other before them had done, what they learned in college, or what some other biologist or manager has been doing.  A prime example was why biologists burned grasslands.  I often took a ride around the refuge with the biologist or refuge manager prior to their review and I was often was shown a field where a prescribed burn had been performed.  When I asked why they burned, the response was generally because fire was part of the ecology of the grassland and they wished to follow nature's lead.  Hard to argue with that BUT what were the objectives and were they met?  Time changes many things and an objective that was achieved many years ago, doesn't mean that it will happen today or whenever the burn was performed.  My next question perplexed most all of them over the years and it was simply how did you measure your success?  That's when I got the blind stares or worse!!  My gut tells me that you should have an outcome in mind before you make a management decision.

So, by way of a long analogy, my question to the group here is why do you recycle your old comb?  In years past, old black comb was cherished and many a beekeeper was proud to have some of grandpa's comb in their hives.  I've noticed that many of you are "treatment free" beekeepers and that is terrific but why do you recycle your comb?

[Ray]

I'm a 5th year BeeHaver and the only comb I've destroyed were:
Dead-out frames that were extremely moldy
Damaged comb that wasn't worth the bee's effort to repair
(I read somewhere, that honey bees have problems chewing out dark comb)
Pollen bound frames.

I use black plastic frames for brood and white plastic for honey. I've cleaned some comb off of the white frames brood darkened areas.
FYI: I run all mediums and 11 frames in my brood boxes.

[Bakersdozen]

 why do you recycle your old comb?  In years past, old black comb was cherished and many a beekeeper was proud to have some of grandpa's comb in their hives.  I've noticed that many of you are "treatment free" beekeepers and that is terrific but why do you recycle your comb?

Chip, can you clarify?  By recycle, do you mean remove from the hive and re-purpose the wax?  Or, do you mean sell with nucs? 

[apisbees]

You slept in it Chip Now the debate is on.I don't recycle unless it is junk or AFB infected.
The recommendation and push came after a study in which they looked at the chemical residue that was being found in wax. They were looking into reports of high brood die off during the development stages. I can't remember all the details but 20 or 30 some chemicals were identified in wax samples. Some containing 1/2 a dozen chemicals in a single sample. Another interesting finding was that 4 out of the top 6 or 7 chemicals found in the samples were ones that are applied to hives by the beekeepers.
There has been lots of studies on brood disease AFB and EFB. On testing comb, spores of these brood disease are found in most hives the older the comb the higher the spore count. What is often overlooked is that the bees do a fine job of sealing and polishing the cells before new larva is raised or honey is deposited into the comb. Also the number of spores the larva needs to be exposed to before it will cause the larva to die and break down. Most AFB is traced back to the use of or robbing out of contaminated equipment.

B12 Remove from the hive selling it in a nuc just moves the problem if there is one onto another beekeeper. One with a lot less experience.
 

[Chip Euliss]

Baker, for me, recycling is to remove chemical residues from the hive, especially the brood comb as Apis described.  I'm familiar with many studies that have shown high and chronic levels of chemicals in comb.  Wax is like a sponge and it absorbs chemcials.  From my recollection, the most prevalent and those at the highest concentrations were chemicals the beekeeper added to control parasites and diseases, mites especially.  For me, I cull old black comb fairly often and replace it with new foundations for the bees to draw out every year.  I try to replace about 10 percent or more and feed sugar heavy early on to expedite the process.  I've used most of the chemicals to control varroa so I know my comb contains their residues. As I go forward, I've been shifting to softer chemicals (e.g., formic, oxalic) so I'll need to evaluate the influence of their chronic exposure on the bees.

My objective with the thread is to encourage folks to think about why they recycle comb and to understand that some old comb may be very usable for treatment free management.  I know we get chemicals from non-apiary applications in our comb but, from the studies here, the levels seem very low and likely don't pose the same risk as the chemicals we put in our hives once or twice a year.

[efmesch]

Undoubtedly, old, used comb has many advantages.  Among them, their strength and saving the bees the effort of having to build new combs when their efforts could instead be used for storing honey.  After all, in order to produce new wax, the bees have to consume honey.  I love extracting honey from old, strong combs that hold their shape when spun in the extractor.  That having been said, there ARE reasons to cycle old combss out of use.
Already mentioned are the increased possibility of hosting disease-causing bacteria and containinig residues from poison applied to the hives (like for the control of varroa).  Not yet mentioned are the fact that, as combs are used  for more cycles of brood rearing, they become smaller, as the exuviae of the developing bees are pushed againt the insides of the cells.  At some point, the cells become too small for the development of full-sized bees. Another problem with old combs is that their color leaches out into the honey stored in them.  If you like a dark honey, no problem,  But if you like your honey light colored, you are more likely to get if if it has been extracted from new. light combs.
As mentioned by others, mostly, I cycle out damaged combs with broken areas or with too much space dedicated to drone cells.

[Chip Euliss]

Good points Ef and i agree.  Never had an issue with staining honey but I've never thought about it either.  I do like the look of freshly capped honey on dark comb; the contrast reminds me of icing on a cake   I also like old comb but my mite control regime compels me to recycle.  You bring up a good point about gradually reduced cell size but that may also have some benefits for varroa control, at least up to a point.

[Bakersdozen]

B12 Remove from the hive selling it in a nuc just moves the problem if there is one onto another beekeeper. One with a lot less experience.

That was my thought, but some had mentioned, in another thread, selling nucs as an option for moving out old comb.  I am not implying that they are sending out comb that came over on the Mayflower, just keeping it fresh.

Chip says, "Wax is like a sponge and it absorbs chemicals." 
I have heard several speakers on this subject.  Some won't commit to how old comb should be allowed to get, others say about 5 years.

I have been pondering how many beekeepers use beeswax for personal care products that contains chemical residue.  Even commercial products that contain beeswax could easily be contaminated.  Thus a product that is promoted as "natural" is really a link to toxic chemicals. 

[Chip Euliss]

Very true B12.  I bought a bunch of plastic frames from Jim Paysen years ago and the bees wouldn't draw it out.  It was unwaxed and the story was that the release agent used when they were made left a residue the bees didn't like.  i had to dip them in wax but used capping wax to get as little chemical residue as possible.  Same argument for organic honey.  We can control the chemicals we use in the hive but bees can fly 2 1/2 miles; finding organic forage with such a radius is nearly impossible and it is that nectar the bees transform into honey.  I like the label and it's better than most but it ain't organic.

[Mikey N.C.]

Very interesting, about 2 months ago I was at a bee supply and the owner told me there was a shortage of deep foundation (Mann,Miller,dadant) he told me he was worried with the demand high and quick production what type of wax was being used, now I understand what he meant