Uh Oh! Poop In The Hive

[Jen]

So Les, are you getting poopy bees too?

[Jen]

Well Gosh Darn It All To Heck!

Took a peek into my poopy hive today. Lifted the lid and this clump fell off dead with queen in the middle. Awe Shucks. Doesn't smell like disease, smells like dead.

My question is: Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???

[Perry]

Heat I bet. Were there a lot more bees in between the frames other than that small cluster on top?

[tedh]

Hey Jen!  First off, I'm sorry for the loss.  There appears to be a good deal of moisture in the hive, or is that an optical illusion?  If it is moisture that could be the culprit.  On second thought it could also be the result of the culprit.  As in not enough bees to remove the excess moisture.  Just a thought.  Ted

[Mikey N.C.]

How have your temperature swings been this year.
I've seen a differences this year.

[Jen]

Perry, I haven't removed any frames yet. I'll do that tomorrow

Ted, Yep there is moisture alright, I'm thinking that there may not have been enough bees to keep the cluster dry with fanning?

Mikey, we have certainly had temp swings from minus 5 to 40 at night.

The thing is, last winter is was raining every day, huge amounts of moisture. This year it has been a lot of snow.

But my question is: "Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???"

[riverbee]

"But my question is: "Why would a cluster of bees, with the queen in the middle, be attached to the underside of the lid this time of year???"

jen, perry is on the right track here.........

1. bees will move up towards the heat and/or feed if they have run out below and are not moving side to side.
    queens can and will be found on the underside of the inner cover when weather warms and the bees have moved up.

2. more importantly, this cluster appears to be very, very small, and not enough bees in this nuc to survive.

i don't think moisture was the issue, i think it was the # of bees, gauging from your picture jen.  some moisture will be found on bees, after they expire. if they are soaking wet and frozen, and/or ice buildup on the side, yes, moisture.  you probably wouldn't get ice build up jen. but take a look at the moisture on the bottom of the nuc, how much is there?  are the bees 'soaked'? from your pix the cluster of bees don't appear to be soaked in moisture, just those near the sugar brick.

i also don't think you had an extensive 'poop problem'.  if this nuc had nosema, one would see the tops of the frames and the face of the frames with dysentery all over them and it would not smell very good.

my guess is, this nuc didn't have the bee population to survive jen.

[Jen]

Okay.... Good info on this thread, Thanks guys

I'll take the hive down tomorrow and see what I can see.

[Bakersdozen]

when it's warm enough it's more efficient to mix up some fumigillin & spray the bees directly with it. a tech at the usda lab told me that they've found low nosema spore counts after treating with fumigillin but within 2-3 weeks they'd rebounded. no other info was offered so now if I treat with fumigillin I treat a 2nd time 2 weeks later.

Interesting....hmmmm. I always wonder about the efficacy of fumagilan after a few days in sugar syrup as apparently it breaks down. Spraying would seem to be a faster way to get them to take it.

Jen:  Sorry your colony did not make it.  Some lessons are hard.

I had an opportunity to talk with an "old bee guy" last night at a bee club meeting.  I brought the topic up of "To feed or to spray fumigilin in the Spring?"  He agreed with spraying based on the same reasons that have been given here.  He suggested that those with a manageable number of hives spray frame by frame because it will be eaten right away, not lose it's efficacy, and WILL be consumed. 

Good thread, good opinions offered. 

[Jen]

This lost poopy hive is one of my nucs. Learning how to winter nucs this season. Thanks for that info Baker 

[riverbee]

thanks bakers for your post on the use of fumagillin.  great post!

hard to say when to treat and when not. by the time we realize or see the effects, it can be too late. spraying would seem a great solution vs syrup.
if i were to treat i would use a much smaller pail.

in the spring for us, i am not certain that spraying would be a good option. maybe. nights are still cold, and day temps can be as well. 6 hives, not sure i would be willing to spray frame by frame, but then again i might!

in the past, some years ago, my supplier sent out a 'flyer' to all their customers, basically from the u of m and dr spivaks advice to treat all bees spring and fall for nosema.  i did.  i am not certain this was the best decision. blindly treating hives is not what i do.  hard decision as to when to treat and when not to. t doesn't hurt to give it to them.

i have had nosema in my hives, it ain't pretty, and the clean up is less than desirable. 

i don't think your nuc had nosema jen, i could be wrong. let us know what you find when you go through it.

[Jen]

Will do River, and does Nosema have an odor?

[Perry]

No odour that I've ever noticed. When it was just Nosema Apis, treatment in the fall with fumagilan was standard. Then with the arrival of Nosema Ceranae, the recommendation was spring and fall. I have only ever used it in the fall, if and when I feed sugar syrup to light or weak colonies.

[Jen]

Okay, thanks Perry 

[riverbee]

"Will do River, and does Nosema have an odor?"

yes it does jen...........(my experience) if your frame tops and faces of the frames are spotted with dark spots.  you can smell it when you open the dead hive. maybe it depends on how extensive it is?  not sure. maybe perry's nose ain't workin'............ (lol perry, just kidding).

[CBT]

In Perry's defense when I had it I could not smell it. Just sayin

[Wandering Man]

Did you that doctors look for loss of olfactory function as a early sign of Alzheimer's?

Perry, you wanna change your answer?

 

[Perry]

Uuuuuuuuh, upon reflection, maybe I should?
About that other thing, the word escapes me at the moment.....