Author Topic: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd  (Read 3172 times)

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Offline Jen

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Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« on: February 02, 2017, 10:55:18 pm »
Phoebe and I are training nicely, she's getting all the signals. But my biggest problem with her, is the kitchen, I have a small kitchen, one way in turn around one way out. I cannot keep her out of the kitchen, she is oblivious. Been on YouTube, not much there. I've tried the invisible barrier, oblivious. I've tried turning the bar stools upside down and blocking the entrance, oblivious. I've been using the knee thing like Chip suggested for dominance, oblivious. I've been using treats for every time she sits or lays down outside the kitchen entrance, oblivious.

She's tall enough to get her whole head onto the counter tops. I don't know what to do at this point. I'm to the point of a shock collar but don't know if that will keep her out. Would like to have a lazer barrier of some sort where she would get a little zap if she crosses the line, is there such a contraption?
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 01:35:20 am »
When we train dogs, the fundamental basics are 1) stop, 2) go, and 3) go with me.  For hunting breeds, the voice commands may vary by breed (e.g. Whoa for pointing dogs) and the method I use follows the methods of Rick Smith.  It's relevant here because he calls his method the silent command system.   He first teaches the dog that a certain physical cue means for the dog to do a certain thing.  You then work with the dog, using only physical cues, until they master that command.  It's silent because you only use physical contact until the dog understands and complies.   Then, we "overlay" a voice command or hand signal at the same time as the physical one and dogs make the transition from physical contact to voice or signal commands very quickly.  You then work only voice or signal commands and use the original physical cues if you don't get compliance.

Having said  that as a background, what does that mean for Phoebe and how could it be used to keep her out of the kitchen?  First off, you'll need an electric collar for a while but not for long hopefully.   Also, you should never use shock (and there are some exceptions) for pain or without conditioning the dog as to what the collar is signaling them to do.  There are several ways commands could be used to keep her out of the kitchen.  The most useful, perhaps, is stop but I could also see the rare use of go.  So, I'll focus on stop for you.   You will need a 25 foot check cord, a post solidly fixed to the ground with no obstructions on the ground within a 25 foot radius.  A steel t-post would work but so would a telephone pole or even a utility pole in an open parking lot, etc.  Put a snap on one end of the check cord and tie the other end to the pole; tie it loose so it will rotate around the pole as you're training.   Put your dog on a lead.  In your case, it can be the same one you use to take her for walks.  Lay the snap end of the check cord near the pole and walk your dog up to the pole.   There, you will hook her up to the check cord but you keep the lead on her as well.  Take the snap end of the lead and, starting from her rear, go between her 2 back legs and pull the cord up past her head so you'll have enough cord.  With that much cord, roll the cord over her back and then down to her belly and loop it over the cord, making a half-hitch knot.   Then, take the snap end and attach it to her collar (that's why you measured it earlier).  The final configuration will have the check cord loosely attached pole, then going between her two rear legs, wrapped over her lower back with the half-hitch knot underneath her belly, then passing under her chest between her front legs and snapped to her collar. Then, take the lead and walk her away slowly until she gets to the end of her cord and the cord physically stops her from going any farther.   At that point, the half-hitch knot pushes up to her belly so the tummy pressure happens simultaneously with the physical constraint of the pole not letting her go any farther forward.   At that point, you should be in front of her and you should only pull the lead if she starts squiggling or even rolling over at being constrained.   Most dogs will fight the cord once or twice but they get used to it quick but you need to tug them a bit until they stand nicely.  As soon as they stand there quietly, give them slack on the lead so they learn they can turn off the neck pressure if they don't fight the cord.  Basically, what you're teaching the dog to do is stop when they get pressure on their tummy.  Corrections to the neck by tightening how hard you pull the lead, is more about standing there quietly while they're being trained.   It's not much different from Pavlov when he "taught" dogs to salivate when he rang the dinner bell.   Technicality, you are teaching a conditioned response to stop when they feel pressure on their tummy.   Once the dog stops, stands there nicely and doesn't fight, give them a little slack in the lead.  Watch the dog closely to see when they finally accept what just happened.   All dogs are different but they will always let you know that they've accepted what happened.   It's almost like they're processing what just happened and then accept it because that's what their boss wanted them to do.  Dog signals, like returning to normal breathing or panting or even swallowing, tell you that your message to stop was received and they are complying.   At that point, walk your way down and very lightly reward the dog with a very soft and brief message of their shoulder to give them a reward for complying.   Then, lead them back towards the pole in a different direction until the cord causes a pressure on their tummy that comes as they physically are prevented from moving forward.  Do this 2-3 times and quit when you get a good response.   You don't want to do this more than 1 or 2 very short sessions every or every other day.  Pretty soon, the dog will feel the cord starting to get tight and they will plant their feet so solidly on the ground that you would have to literally drag them to get them to go forward any more.  At that point, you're ready for the shock collar.  Set the thing for continuous current when you push the button and set it on the lowest possible setting.  Try it on yourself.  You don't want it to hurt, only make a little tingling pressure.   Put the collar over the dogs back so the electric probes are touching her tummy at the same place as the half hitch knot.  Work her on the check cord and pole but push the button on the stock collar as the knot tightens.   Here, you're teaching the dog to switch from the cord to an electrical signal.  Use the lowest setting possible that gives you immediate compliance.  Often, you can reduce the strength of the electricity as the dog makes the association.  You're now free of the pole and can stop her without that check cord.  Better, you can use the cord as a lead so she can get farther away but you can still stop her with a mild shock.   Remember to turn off the electricity as soon as you get compliance.  The next step is taking what you taught the dog to do silently, and giving it a name with either a visual or sound command.  Since your dog is deaf, a hand signal would work fine as Scott mentioned.  You basically overlay a voice or hand signal on that conditioned response just like you made the switch from a half-hitch knot pressure to the shock collar.  Keep at it and if she gets stuck, just go back to the pole and check cord or to the shock collar as needed.  The dog now knows that a particular signal (voice or hand signal) means to stop.  Use the collar to reinforce your command and increase the strength as needed to get compliance.  As soon as she does what you want her to do, reduce the setting to the minimum she can feel.  Once fully trained, you can put the collar on her neck and punish her when she doesn't mind you.  Now she knows what the electric shock means and she knows what she needs to do to turn it off (by complying with your command.  If you use the collar before she understands why, you run the risk of confusing the dog or even taking some of her spirit away; both things you don't want.

Next step would be to stop her in the house before she gets into a room where she isn't allowed.  If she breaks the rules after you tell her to stop with a hand command, you can force her to comply with the shock collar and she'll know why.   Most dogs make the connection very quickly.

Sorry for the long explanation but it's what I would do and it will work on any dog.  I'm sure it's on the videos the Smith's sell. 
Chip

Offline Perry

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 07:16:38 am »
Greyhounds are probably very similar to dane's, they are food motivated and because of their size they are excellent counter surfers. Copper is very sensitive to voice inflection and simply saying something loud achieves the result we want and is almost never needed. Penny on the other hand is just a free spirit and because of the challenges she has already faced we cut her some slack. I believe as she gets older she will "slow down". ;D
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Offline Jen

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 02:47:14 pm »
Perry, yes lots of similarities with greyhounds and danes. Phoebe is actually very compliant, easy going dog, sleeps often. When either of us are in the kitchen she is right at our side like glue, we turn her around and hussle her out. This goes on 15 times-ish until we put her outside and come back in leaving her in the backyard until we are done in the kitchen. She doesn't hear a command like "Out" or "Go on" or 'move along". So if I'm bringing a pot of boiling potatoes to the sink, I can't give her the command to leave my side. We could both get hurt.

Other than the kitchen thing she's a free wheeling dog in the house and we like it that way.

Chip, Thank You! I printed that off and will read it tonight with my evening tea. Sure appreciate your effort and help  :) 8)
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2017, 06:16:58 pm »
It's a lot simpler than you might think based on the length of my response  :)
Chip

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2017, 10:03:01 pm »
Chip posted good advice.. the basic premise is making her understand that some things are off limits  Using a rope, or a simple flick in top of the muzzle. A clicker wont work with a deaf dog so it has to be physical.
   As I posted in the other thread.. mom would give them a sharp nip if she was unhappy with them, and that is what they would understand quickly.

   Also understand that physical reprimands do not need to be exceptionally harsh..   A startled yelp when the rope gets yanked (Or she gets flicked) may be OK, but you don't want her running and yelping and becoming afraid of you.

   I have had the misfortune of training dogs that have been treated harshly. It is a matter of earning their trust all over again before the training can really start. Dogs generally trust right of of the starting gate unless they are unusually timid. She does not WAN'T you to be unhappy with her... so as I said.. whatever method you use, you need to be consistent...
   If you see her doing something wrong and think... AWWWWWW that is SOOOO cute... and let her get away with it.. you just messed up all the training you have already started.

   Many times you can TELL when a reprimand has clicked by the expression...   I have yelled at a pup and seen them get VERY excited, wiggling and rolling over...  Often that is not "the end" depending on the circumstances...

   In your case...
   You teach her to stay off the kitchen tables and counters..   She learns it well and stays away...
   You load up your counters with thanksgiving dinner...
   The counter is now very different to the dog, it is not "the same" as it was when it was empty so it is no longer off limits, so there will be stages of teaching you need to keep in mind...
   If she does something she KNOWS is wrong... LOOK at the situation and see if there is something different...
   As I also posted... she may KNOW she cant get in the garbage...   But if it gets knocked over, it is different now and she is free to drag it all over the house...

   There are many challenges depending on the dog you are training..  When you leave the house with her still in it..  The situation has changed once again...  So you have to be consistent and stick with your methods. SHE will be happy knowing the rules.. It may seem harsh to yank the rope or give a flick, but SHE will be happier once she understands, and so will you.
   Scott
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Offline kingd

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 07:49:06 am »
 Excellent advice Chip and Lazybkpr,
 I never realized but my wife uses hand signals all the time with the dogs in the house,In the kitchen if she is cooking and if dog walks in she waves her hand and points to the rug in the doorway, the dog goes there knowing that she only gets things if she is on the rug.

  Consistency is the key, Of course counter surfing can be a problem with Danes,All the good stuff is at eye level.
I did have a chocolate cake on the counter once and a little while later it was only half frosted courtesy of the new dog :-X

Also, I love the shock collar even though some people are against them.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Training A Dog ~ Chip, Scott, Perry, Kingd
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 09:33:42 pm »
Shock collar is a very valuable training aid if used correctly.
  Unfortunately most people cant resist pushing the button if they get angry. I have used them with great success, mostly to teach stubborn dogs to come, or to teach dogs that have been "messed up" by inconsistent methods.
   If you push the button and the dog vocalizes, I have always felt that the collar was too HOT...   I want them to TAKE NOTICE but not be screaming or yelping.

   So how goes the training Jen?
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